let's hope not. that would be embarrassing....

on second thought - let it go to court so it can get slapped down again.

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080916/ARTICLES/809160338/1004

Quote :

"The Brunswick County school board is looking for a way for creationism to be taught in the classroom side by side with evolution. "It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists." When asked by a reporter, his fellow board members all said they were in favor of creationism being taught in the classroom."

quote of the day?

Quote :

""I wasn't here 2 million years ago," Fanti said. "If evolution is so slow, why don't we see anything evolving now?""

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking! If it's so damned slow, why can't we see it happening in our extremely short lifetimes!? (ignoring, of course..... that is has been directly observed many, many times)


FYI, Brunswick = southeastern-most county, below Wilmington

9/17/2008 8:29:45 PM

brilliant

i hate people

9/17/2008 8:32:07 PM

here is where i am a big fan of local government

either elect people that arent complete fuckups or move

i have no problem studying the bible, koran, etc in schools as literature

but i really dont see it following the scientific method with peer review

9/17/2008 9:05:36 PM

Quote :

"either elect people that arent complete fuckups or move"

have you ever been to a small town, in rural NC?
1) you seriously would have a hard time finding 10 educated, science-literate people
2) if you did find them in the town, they probably wouldn't be serving on the schoolboard

9/17/2008 9:23:35 PM

they're both theories...one is a shitload more plausible than the other, one of the reasons i'm an agnostic and got my degree in a scientific concentration

but why do you hate the 1st amendment so much when you disagree with how its being utilized?

9/17/2008 9:25:38 PM

Carlface.

That's all I have to say.

9/17/2008 9:28:19 PM

1) yes, they're both theories....
one is a scientific theory, which means it is a collection of observations and facts brought together in an overarching idea, or theory, in order to tie them all together
and the other is a.... "theory", in that it's some unsubstantiated, indefensible ideas pulled together mostly from an ancient book

2) 1st amendment, please meet the separation of church and state. I hope you can learn to get along.

9/17/2008 9:32:49 PM

^^big surprise...hey maybe we should stop teaching the big bang theory too since its just as much of a guess as religion? is that cool with you?

^1. i personally believe in science and am agnostic, i dont disagree with your views, but why force those views on others

(^)2. the term "separation of church and state" doesnt occur in the constitution (nor does the word separation) but i was referring to the free speech aspect of the first amendment, please comment on that instead of the freedom of religion aspect

9/17/2008 9:36:18 PM

i'm trying to explain to you what "theory" means in a scientific concept. In a scientific context, a "theory" is not the same as we use it in day-to-day life. Colloquially, we generally use "theory" as just "an idea" that may or may not be true.

but the Theory of Evolution is not "just a guess". It's a collection of facts and first and second hand observations. Individually, these facts do not mean much (genes mutate over time, speciation occurs over time, etc), but they are pulled together in an encompassing theory to attempt to describe how and why they all work together, and to lead to testable hypothesis and predictions. In this sense, there will never be a "Law of Evolution", as opponents seem to think must happen before it can be widely believed. There will only continue to be facts of evolution that are more solidly established (or overturned, or amended) which will still continue to make up an overall Theory.

The "theory" of creation is going nowhere - it's just an idea. An untestable, unprovable idea.

9/17/2008 9:46:48 PM

the big bang is "just a guess"...thats what i said was just a guess, which it is, yet its taught...you dont need to use quote marks and bold tags to put words in my mouth

but what does the implausibility of religion have to do with freedom of speech? and let me again remind you i'm an agnostic but thats not the point

btw you mention creationism being unprovable...so is evolution...evolution is way too long scale to accurately test and prove...so dont try to act like it is

don't you think back when the scientific community thought the world was flat that there were people making the argument that you're making? that their theory was much more plausible than creationism even though they happened to be dead wrong?

i'll close by reminding you once again that i'm agnostic so that hopefully you're hatred of ignorant religious people won't cloud your response

9/17/2008 9:52:39 PM

the Big Bang is a theory that has been formed on what the evidence tells us. All of the cosmological evidence points to a big bang. How or why that bang occurred? Nobody knows, and that is not part of the theory nor is not taught as such.

Evolution, if not provable (i'm not convinced it's not), is at least testable. There are countless hypotheses and predictions that can be made, and have been, based on our current understanding. As such, it is also fully falsifiable - only one misplaced fossil or unexplainable line of DNA can turn the entire theory on its head.

please don't start on the "the world is flat" bullshit again. That's been debunked so many times as to 1) why it's irrelevant in the current discussion, and 2) that was not the scientific communities consensus opinion anyway, it was the opinion of the church and the uneducated

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 10:08 PM. Reason : . ]

9/17/2008 10:07:49 PM

ok lets drop the world is flat thing

but again you're wrong about evolution...EVEN THOUGH I BELIEVE IN IT, its neither provable or falsifiable...its still a theory despite what type of definitions of theory you choose to propagate...the quote earlier about "I wasn't here 2 million years ago" actually has some merit in the discussion...evolution does take many generations of a species...if you were to somehow prove it you would have to rely on your great great great great grandchild to continue the research of you and all their elders above them

also i'm not at all trying to convince you that creationism is rationally believable, scientifically probable, or something that i have any type of inherent bias for...i'm simply saying why cant some bumfuck town or county teach it? whats wrong with that? just because evolution is more plausible to me and you than creationism, why shouldnt schools be allowed to teach it? its not like they're fucking with numbers in math classes, something that actually CAN be proven or disproven...its literally a class about theories with the most probable theory to the govt being taught...why cant other theories be taught as well? i've reiterated ad nauseum that i don't believe in creationism myself...but i also dont have an issue with a particular county's school system teaching what they want to teach (to a certain extent)...lots of people believe in the bible regardless of what you and i think...isnt it better to give each individual community the right to vote on what they want to teach IN ADDITION TO EVOLUTION?

9/17/2008 10:17:45 PM

My momma be telling me that those communist liberals are trying to teach that crazy evolution stuff. U's know what I ain't be no monkey and Jesus ain't come from no monkey aither. Creationism as Preacher Joe tells us in church is the truth; I tell you. A hand came down from heaven and poof humans were here 6,000 years ago. Surely Preacher Joe and a the good book written back when sickness was cured through "bleedings" would not lie to us common folk unlike those yanks with their new fangle Ph'D's trying to act all smarter than us. Those 8+ years in school and research were actually just brainwashing by the ruskies to ruin good ole american spirit with evolutionin fucking shit

i be only graduating from high school but at leastin i know the truth!!!!

This message is brought to you by the Society of Creationism Brunswick County Chapter; The NC Souther Baptists Society; and further approved by...

PALIN 08

[Edited on September 17, 2008 at 10:39 PM. Reason : l]

9/17/2008 10:36:51 PM

yes, i understand you believe in it. Congrat-u-fucking-lations. i don't care

it is falsifiable, because hypotheses can be made based on current understandings, that if proven incorrect would not be consistent with the current theory. A couple listed at the bottom of this page curriculum
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_disp.htm

School curriculum standards have to be made at some level, at the moment generally at the state level. The advantage of this is that a state-wide curriculum can draw input from experts in each field as to what is important and what should be taught. Nationwide experts in biology, for example, can give inputs as to what the leading theories are in their field and help shape the curriculum. This is just not possible on a county or school district level. Small towns and districts simply cannot bring experts or people with knowledge in each discipline to make their own standards.

It's amazing to me that small-town school boards think they have the knowledge to reshape science curriculum when they almost certainly have zero science background..... Do any of them feel like changing the rules of Math? What about English - i know some of the dialects in backwoods NC barely sounds like English to me - maybe the schoolboard should just change the rules to match how they speak!

But overall, you seem to be missing the point that the bible cannot be taught in the schools, regardless of what the people believe, because, well.... it's the Bible and a public school. It has been established through law that public institutions like schools will not be involved in teaching religious dogma. I don't care if 99.9% of the people in a school believe if Woman was created from the fucking rib of a Man, who was created himself from mud - that is plainly a religious teaching which cannot be taught in a school.

9/17/2008 10:36:59 PM

If parents want their kids to not learn evolution, learn creationism, and enjoy a backwards ignorant existence than they can send their children to private school. Being a private institution I do not give a fuck if the create the Billy Graham Creationism School for scientifically gifted where students emphasize their studies on the theories, bible revelations, and reading up on Creationism for the majority of their education time. Being a private school GO FOR IT. Hopefully the parents won't be pissed when their kids have problems getting into mainstream universities for their lack of study in the current academic standards.

9/17/2008 10:43:07 PM

Quote :

"I wasn't here 2 million years ago," Fanti said. "If evolution is so slow, why don't we see anything evolving now?"

I wasn't here 150 years ago either, but.... jesus, that doesn't even deserve a real response.

JUSTNOWISM

THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED WHEN I POSTED THIS HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY DISPROVE ME?

9/18/2008 12:53:44 AM

I don't see what the big deal is with teaching two theories side-by-side with one another. It's not like they're forcing a belief system on anyone, just presenting another side to the argument. Let the students decide what they want to believe maybe? Or is that too much freedom of choice given to the "poor uneducated rednecks who must be backwards and/or retarded because they believe in a different theory than us"?

9/18/2008 1:38:33 AM

The problem is that there is more than one interpretation of creationism. I'm sure if little Johnny Rebel had to be taught about creationism through the lens of Eastern religions or Islam there would be quite an outcry.

9/18/2008 1:55:50 AM

well, in a perfect world, the local government and parents have control over the curriculum, so there would be no outcry. If the parents didn't want Islam's creation stories, then they would have the right not to have them taught.

9/18/2008 2:09:55 AM

There is a gross misinterpretation here of what constitutes a theory. Theories have explanatory power.

"Goddidit" has no explanatory power.

9/18/2008 4:01:15 AM

Quote :

"just presenting another side to the argument. Let the students decide what they want to believe maybe?"

because science isn't just another set of opinions that you choose from, like who your favorite N'Sync member is who was the best 18th century American author. If you want students to learn science, then you teach them the most established scientific theories and facts. If you want to teach a controversy, there are plenty of legitimate scientific controversies you can teach, including dozens or hundreds inside the field of biology and within the overarching theory of evolution regarding the intricacies of how it works. But that evolution is actually happening? that's not a matter of opinion.

The bible says that the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is 3. Would you prefer math teachers teach "both sides" to the question of Pi and let the students decide which is right?

9/18/2008 7:09:59 AM

It's not so much about choosing what to think, but educate kids to be able to back up what they think. And this is what you give them when you teach religious bull crap

9/18/2008 8:13:03 AM

Quote :

""It's really a disgrace for the state school board to impose evolution on our students without teaching creationism," county school board member Jimmy Hobbs said at Tuesday's meeting. "The law says we can't have Bibles in schools, but we can have evolution, of the atheists.""

I know this guy personally and he is an idiot. His kids are all screwups and he has more money and opinions than he knows what to do with. The vast majority of teachers in BrunCo dislike him. Trust me, this will not get very far. None of his proposals do. He just talks a big game, then slowly backs away in the face of public opposition.

9/18/2008 8:30:42 AM

Quote :

"well, in a perfect world, the local government and parents have control over the curriculum, so there would be no outcry. If the parents didn't want Islam's creation stories, then they would have the right not to have them taught."

Unfortunately, since America is a veritable "melting pot", local governments and parents (aka, the community) have many different viewpoints on what constitutes a theory, creationism & what should be taught in biology class.

There are countless nuances in regard to creationism - otherwise all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. would fall under 1 belief each. Instead, there are many denominations of each. And then think of ALL the religions. Why should the community subscribe to only 1 discussion of creationism and not others? What of Native American creation stories? It becomes too much too fast. And it discriminates against "minority" religions in whatever community this idiocy resides.

Evolution is a scientific theory based on the scientific method and thus fits in with what is ALREADY taught in science classes.

This will be shot down. /discussion.

9/18/2008 10:18:55 AM

these are the same poor/stupid people that liberals want to provide healthcare for.

9/18/2008 10:26:13 AM

Why not make students take proper science classes as well as religious texts as literature classes? That way they are educated in all aspects of how the universe may/may not have been created and are allowed the freedom to believe whichever they choose while subsequently fulfilling educational requirements that will give them the credits necessary to pursue higher education.

Really this argument is entirely narrow minded and ignorant on both sides. While we have some pretty good guesstimates on how the universe was created with the big bang, etc, nobody can say that that is 100% accurate. On the other hand, I was brought up in a protestant household and believe in a God that is bigger than myself and this universe. Do I consider myself smarter-than-thou to dismiss your belief system, scientific or religious, as bunk? NO!

When/If I ever have children, I am going to make sure they are educated to see the beauty of both arguments. The faith we have in science and the faith we have in the divine. They both boil down to blind faith.

PS- lay off the redneck bashing. I've met plenty of ignorant yankees in my day.

Also, someone please post the Froshkiller, Welcome to College, now shut the fuck up about your relgious views rant. This thread needs the lawls.

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 11:33 AM. Reason : f u]

9/18/2008 11:31:34 AM

Quote :

"While we have some pretty good guesstimates on how the universe was created with the big bang, etc, nobody can say that that is 100% accurate."

the Theory of Evolution, which is the theory that is constantly under attack by creationists, has nothing to do with the big bang, the origins of the universe, or even the origins of life. It is a theory that is tightly defined and describes one area of nature. Unlike creationism, which attempts to wipe out astronomy, geology, and biology all in one fell swoop.

9/18/2008 11:42:09 AM

Quote :

"these are the same poor/stupid people that liberals want to provide healthcare for."

And?

9/18/2008 11:43:38 AM

survival of the fittest.

9/18/2008 12:34:55 PM

The people who are voting for this fool aren't the poor folks. Brunswick county is a strange place. There is abject poverty then down the road multi-million dollar housing.

9/18/2008 12:41:42 PM

there is some sanity, though

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20080917/ARTICLES/809170272/0/NEWS4520&title=No_place_for_creationism_in_science_class__state_says_

Quote :

"But neither creationism nor the related “intelligent design,” which says life forms are so complex only a higher power could have created them, may be taught as a required course of study, Edd Dunlap, science section chief for the N.C. Department of Public Instruction, said Wednesday. These are considered religious teachings and may not be taught in science class or as fact, although they may be included as part of an elective, such as a course on religion or philosophy, he said. While evolution is a course of study that must be taught in public schools, based on national standards, creationism is not, Dunlap said. Brunswick, New Hanover and Pender counties all follow the evolution curriculum. “If you’re teaching something not in the standards, you’re not teaching what students need to be assessed on,” Dunlap said."

9/18/2008 2:34:30 PM

Quote :

"there is some sanity, though"

Yeah, but not from the Brunswick County BOE (on any issue). If you grew up there like I did, none of this would surprise you. I would NEVER raise my family in that craphole.

9/18/2008 2:42:28 PM

Quote :

"survival of the fittest."

Are you being intentionally stupid here or do you really not understand the difference between evolutionary theory and social darwinism?

9/18/2008 2:57:15 PM

Are you being intentionally stupid here or do you really not understand the CONNECTION between evolutionary theory and social darwinism?

9/18/2008 3:12:07 PM

We might as well teach our kids that unicorns and magic are real too!

Well kids computer work by having magical fairies that run little messages from your computer to the internet!

9/18/2008 3:27:30 PM

Quote :

"Are you being intentionally stupid here or do you really not understand the CONNECTION between evolutionary theory and social darwinism?"

You mean the connection of misapplication and false analogy? Why sure.

9/18/2008 4:04:28 PM

Quote :

"The people who are voting for this fool aren't the poor folks. Brunswick county is a strange place. There is abject poverty then down the road multi-million dollar housing."

Bingo.

I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on the economic status of Creationism proponents.

9/18/2008 4:14:37 PM

Why is there any debate here?

There is absolutely no way the Earth is anything less than 10,000 years old, like creationist believe. How can anyone think this comes anywhere close to being a valid enough theory to be taught next to other scientific principles?

9/18/2008 4:18:44 PM

Quote :

"How can anyone think this comes anywhere close to being a valid enough theory to be taught next to other scientific principles?"

Irrationality and a general lack of education.

9/18/2008 4:19:59 PM

The people believing in Creationism are probably the same folks who think by downing $20/wk in the lottery they'll some day win and get to retire.

9/18/2008 4:23:17 PM

Quote :

"I don't see what the big deal is with teaching two theories side-by-side with one another. It's not like they're forcing a belief system on anyone, just presenting another side to the argument. Let the students decide what they want to believe maybe? Or is that too much freedom of choice given to the "poor uneducated rednecks who must be backwards and/or retarded because they believe in a different theory than us"?"

o rly? how about this for starters:

9/18/2008 4:29:27 PM

Quote :

"Let the students decide what they want to believe maybe?"

freedom of personal choice only applies when you choose to murder babies

9/18/2008 4:54:38 PM

On the way to myrtle beach we stopped to get gas in brunswick county, place scared the shit out of me.

9/18/2008 5:03:18 PM

did Ocean Isle Beach scare the shit out of you? maybe Sunset Beach?

9/18/2008 5:04:03 PM

^^^ Why don't we let kids decide if they should do homework or not? Or even if they should go to school at all?

Kids take science class to learn about that subject, not something completely different.

I went to 1st and 2nd grade in Brunswick county, it was a nice place back then, from what I remember.

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 5:07 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2008 5:05:48 PM

^^ AND ^^^ HAHA

Yeah, those retired New Jerseyites sure are scary. If you were just passing through on the way to Myrtle, you didn't see squat.

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 5:07 PM. Reason : stupid carrots]

9/18/2008 5:06:52 PM

Quote :

"Why don't we let kids decide if they should do homework or not? Or even if they should go to school at all?"

why dont we let kids decide to get abortions? oh wait, we do

9/18/2008 5:08:15 PM

If kids want to learn about creationism they can CHOOSE to take a class on religion, or just go to church.

And if someone gets knocked up, society is not going to consider them a kid anymore, anyway.

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 5:14 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2008 5:11:40 PM

2x

[Edited on September 18, 2008 at 5:12 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2008 5:12:20 PM

HEY THAT WAS POSTED RIGHT ABOVE YOU

9/18/2008 5:12:51 PM