Hey guys this is a technical question that has to do with pavement composition.

I noticed that in Virginia, for example, the road surfaces are tarmac. They're all black and cars on R-comps drive very well on it. Here in NC, however, all the road surfaces are gray, have a lot of silicon it(shiny reflective pieces), and R-comps don't make much of a difference - its almost like driving on street tires, and they dust like hell. I thought I maybe hit something and messed up my alignment and thats making my car handle weird, but that's definitely not it. What is the pavement here made of, why is it different, and where is the closest place to find a black tarmac surface to drive on

[Edited on October 3, 2008 at 8:06 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2008 7:53:58 PM

Im gonna go with $$. and the NC DOT is not so hot. kinda like your tires. what kinda tires you running? those 615's?? shave the 615s down. see if that makes a difference. they're cheap enough to experiment with.

10/3/2008 8:09:33 PM

just ruins the driving experience completely for me

10/3/2008 8:20:03 PM

tarmac is less expensive but has a shorter life

10/3/2008 8:22:14 PM

guess i found the answer to my own question here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarmac

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt

[Edited on October 3, 2008 at 8:31 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2008 8:29:15 PM

virginia still paves with tarmac? maybe on the secondary roads, but i wouldn't think on the primary roads.

10/3/2008 8:46:40 PM

i thought "tarmac" was used when describing asphalt. the other road surface you are talking about is concrete.

10/3/2008 8:48:45 PM

i'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, so please correct as necessary

10/3/2008 8:56:30 PM

well, tarmac is an old paving method (early 1900's), so i wouldn't think it would be used except on county/secondary roads.



can't make it out that great, but see how VA 600 is paved differently than VA 14. VA 600 is a narrower, less used road, as you can probably tell. Virginia took over most of the county highways during the Depression, which is why you see so many secondary highways in Virginia (circle shield instead of the oblong primary shield)

I'm guessing VA 600 was paved in tarmac, as it is an older paving method, and most of the highways in virginia that the original post is referring to were paved in asphalt.

granted, i'm not a civil engineer.

10/3/2008 9:20:14 PM

ok. after doing even more research, the road surfaces in NC are concrete vs alsphalt. Asphalt is stickier at lower temperatures, but gets oily when hot. Also tire particles get lodged in it when its used as a racing surface. Concrete is more cost effective and has a more consistent surface with temperature changes. This would explain why R comps dont squal on asphalt, but rather hop mid-corner

http://www.stockcarscience.com/scienceTopics/scsTrack_Asphalt.php



[Edited on October 3, 2008 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2008 9:26:27 PM

huh

yea, i know about roads, but not road construction

10/3/2008 10:09:42 PM

Quote :

"what kinda tires you running? those 615's?? "

as in Azenis RT-615s? i wouldn't really call those r-comps.


off subject, anyone ever seen the highways out west that are paved with some sort of red asphalt or something?

10/3/2008 10:24:40 PM

never seen any of those

i know older highways in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas have a reddish/pinkish hue to them

never seen any red asphalt in Texas. it would seem counter-intuitive to have reddish asphalt in the desert/arid areas out West. They would seem to try to be kept as black and visible as possible.

10/3/2008 10:26:24 PM

i don't mean that they're bright red, like the color on this website or anything. they're definitely pretty red, though.

type in "red pavement" in google images. my internet here is running slow and i have to go fly right now.

10/3/2008 10:29:20 PM

maybe I'm reading too much into igor's posts but...

he's talking about public roads.
r-comps on public roads.
racing.

w.t.f.

Quote :

"off subject, anyone ever seen the highways out west that are paved with some sort of red asphalt or something?"

not sure if its the same as out west but Germany has been experimenting with a new paving material on some parts of the autobahn. IT is also red in color which looks cool...but its designed to allow water to seep through it and not build up on the road surface...also similar results with snow.

[Edited on October 3, 2008 at 10:51 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2008 10:50:08 PM

probably just has to do with what aggregate is cheap and available out west

10/4/2008 1:00:29 AM

A lot of rural NC roads are paved in a cheaper manner which they called "chip seals" in my pavement materials class. Basically, they have a graded area where they want a road, they drive a truck through to dump aggregate on the ground, they then drive another truck over this aggregate a certain number of times dragging a chain link net behind it which acts to even out any significant mounds of aggregate. From here they drive a truck over the smoothed aggregate which sprays the exposed aggregate with hot asphalt and then they compact the aggregate and asphalt with a roller (vibratory drum or tire-based roller). This road is very cheap to put up in rural areas and is rather durable. I believe one of the statistics they threw out in class was that something like 60% of the roads in NC are done with this chip seals method. The road is noisier and will throw up a few bits of aggregate, but the cost savings is more than worth it (it allows funds to be diverted to more important projects in congested urban centers).

Virginia's DOT probably has different standards for certain public highways that require them to use some sort of hot mix asphalt construction more frequently, which is what you tend to see on new parkways and repaved highways in NC. That's the nice smooth, black roadway that is a shit ton quieter to ride on than the rougher asphalt roads in more rural NC. The nicer asphalt roads will stand up better to heavier vehicle traffic, more chemical exposure, and more extreme freeze/thaw/ice cycles (which you encounter much more in parts of virginia than here in Raleigh). Virginia also likely has fewer roads than NC and has decided to use slightly longer lasting, higher-quality asphalt roads in lieu of lots of cheap, quick pavement jobs in an attempt to save on long term costs and overhead expenses. We have to use the cheap shit or else we'd have been in the poor house loooong ago.

10/4/2008 1:16:16 AM

yeah.. those 615s aren't really r comps.... close enough I guess

and I think he's talking about autoX. hence the public roads and racing... at least I would hope its autoX. and aren't R comps not DOT legal.

10/4/2008 8:38:32 AM

most popular r-compounds are DOT legal, but you'd be stupid to run them and wear through them that quickly with normal driving.

10/4/2008 8:43:13 AM

and never get them up to temp to work well, and/or kill them with so many heat cycles

10/4/2008 10:05:14 AM

Quote :

"ok. after doing even more research, the road surfaces in NC are concrete vs alsphalt."

what in the fuck are you talking about? all roads are paved with either asphalt or that tar/gravel shit that people refer to as tarmac even though it really isn't tarmac. it's really this:

Quote :

"A lot of rural NC roads are paved in a cheaper manner which they called "chip seals" in my pavement materials class. "

the only time you see a road surface using concrete is on the interstates because of it's life expectancy. you must be comparing I-85 from Virginia to NC. it does go from asphalt to concrete at the state line. and i must say it does fucking suck riding on an interstate paved with concrete. especially the older ones since the concrete has shifted and it bounces down the road.

and another thing, there is a huge difference between street tires and r-comps. you are an idiot if you are driving down the street on race tires.

10/4/2008 10:56:47 AM

there are concrete roads and highways as well, its not only for interstates

10/4/2008 12:01:44 PM

We've been waiting 15 years for them to pave my road back home, then they finally did this half-assed paving method. They threw out a bunch of gravel and sprayed a spit-full worth of tar over it. Shittiest thing I've ever seen. It's one of the oldest, most historic and well traveled roads in the county(maybe the state) and it's a damn gravel road again. Absolutely pathetic. It was full of pot holes before, but at least our tires didn't throw rocks all over the place. Motorcyclists probably catch hell on it.

10/4/2008 12:30:37 PM

It's true. Interstate projects are usually the only ones that can garner enough attention to need concrete.

10/4/2008 12:32:15 PM

heres the closest example i could think of:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cary+nc&ie=UTF8&ll=35.820614,-78.782404&spn=0.000823,0.001872&t=h&z=20

yeah its usually only interstates, but not always. there are examples of concrete roads and highways all over the state.

10/4/2008 1:13:31 PM

I generally get better gas mileage in virginia than I do in NC when making a trip that way.

I blame it on the road surfaces

10/4/2008 5:32:00 PM

^^^^yeah, the state just paved camp kanata rd. that way too. i used to love taking that road home but now it sucks ass because of all the fucking rocks being thrown up on my truck.

10/4/2008 10:04:31 PM

Quote :

"and I think he's talking about autoX. hence the public roads and racing... at least I would hope its autoX. and aren't R comps not DOT legal."

can you really even get R Comps up to temp in a 30secon autoX run?

10/5/2008 5:03:20 PM

the right kind of r-comps, yes. A6/V710 can definitely get some heat in them in a 45ish second run.

10/5/2008 8:11:34 PM

^^hell yeah. that's why the Hoosier Autocrosser was invented (or what is now called the A6 as ^ said.)

10/5/2008 8:44:50 PM

shooooooot, you can heat up tires in the pit area/staging lanes. heck, just take a torch to it

10/5/2008 9:37:31 PM

they just repaved US 301 in Rocky Mount, but I swear its the shittiest paving job I have ever seen on any numbered highway, it looks and feels like the way they pave rural roads.

10/5/2008 10:17:51 PM

I hate NC. When I test drive cars to diagnose vibration problems I have to drive 5 miles down 485 before I hit ashpalt on a highway. On concrete simple road vibrations can be misconstrued as an out of balance wheel or something similar.

10/5/2008 10:24:11 PM

wow. this thread got long. Autocross tires are great for the street because you usually don't get a chance to heat them up before you need the traction. Example, some idiot pulls out in front of you, and you need to swerve to avoid them = saved car. The pavement everywhere I've been in raleigh exept for a small section of the beltline south of NCSU sucks. It's noisy, provides no traction, or both. Only the true "black" pavement is of sufficient quality to provide acceptable levels of grip from nice tires. But as you say, what can you expect from NCDOT?

10/5/2008 10:57:50 PM

GETCHOO SOME RALLY TIRES DAWG

10/5/2008 11:07:40 PM

NC DOT is partly to blame. Raiding the highway trust fund and giving the highway maintenance/repair division shitty levels of funding is also to blame.

A massive rise in construction materials is also to blame. They'd put in nicer shit if they could afford it. Things will get a little better one day, but not with our current politicians.

10/5/2008 11:15:23 PM

NCDOT gets their maintenance funds from the gas tax which has not been increased in a while and people are starting to drive less, while construction costs are skyrocketing. The surface treatments you see, like the chip seals and slurry seals are meant to get a little more life out of the roads before they need to be resurfaced and save the state of NC alot of money. The point is, if you want better roads you are going to have to pay more for gas, which probably isn't going to happen.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 1:58 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2008 1:47:07 AM

I want to know what the fuck you are calling autocross tires vs a very sticky street tire. I bet many people have different opinions than you in that respect.

autocross tires would generally have a tire cost of ~$1 a mile, at best, whereas street tires are a few pennies a mile.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 8:08 AM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 8:07:35 AM

hmmm, you must have some deep pockets to be using "autocross" tires on the street.

10/6/2008 8:53:48 AM

^^ i'm not sure where you get those figures from, but essentially sticky street tires would be something like rt615's, and an "autocross" tire would be something like v710's, but performance-wise theyre both leaps and bounds better than most of the shit I see people run. People who are truly interested in street performace of their car drive with a setup that is track worthy at all times. I literally don't change a single thing when I go to an autocross - just get out, take out the spare and I'm ready to go. If you swap out for "street" tires, you're not interested in a great street car and you probably don't drive very aggressively on the road. From what I've seen, no one wants to invest in really making their car handle great everyday, which is a shame. I had to drive a car on "street" tires, or basically all-seasons for a few months, and it was downright depressing. I don't understand how anyone can deal with all seasons all the time.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 10:09 AM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 10:04:00 AM

ummmm

was that a joke?

Quote :

"People who are truly interested in street performace of their car drive with a setup that is track worthy at all times. "

haha, umm ok... i mean, to a point yes, usually people who have their cars setup dont swap out the susp and seats and cage when they are done with a track event BUT ILL BE DAMNED IF I AM NOT PUTTING ON CHEAPER TIRES FOR THE STREET. interested in street performance? it should never get to that point where you have to act like you're on track when you're on public roads.

you use the skills that you have learned from different driving experiences, not your car. thats telling me you have no driver skill and you're using your car as an excuse.

Quote :

"I literally don't change a single thing when I go to an autocross - just get out, take out the spare and I'm ready to go. If you swap out for "street" tires, you're not interested in a great street car and you probably don't drive very aggressively on the road. From what I've seen, no one wants to invest in really making their car handle great everyday, which is a shame. I had to drive a car on "street" tires, or basically all-seasons for a few months, and it was downright depressing. I don't understand how anyone can deal with all seasons all the time."

hey ricer, isnt your whole thing about wolfpack SCC to not act a fool on the street? there is absolutely no reason at all why you should be driving aggressively on the street. you're putting people at risk, whats the difference between you driving aggressively and some lowlifes street racing?

i can understand if you have to maneuver your car out of the way for something, but that hardly ever happens. its happened to me ONCE, and that was in a land rover on ice, where i had to point and shoot, you look where you wanna go, and you'll go there.

maybe the land rover was setup for track?? i dont know, maybe it was.

there really is no reason, unless youve got a lot of money why you should be driving around with a track worthy setup. i dont know.. maybe you like the stiffness of a vehicle, maybe you like wearing out your car faster and your tires. but again, you've probably got deep pockets.

i just love how you say if you're not driving aggressive then you truly dont love the sport.

nosir, there are thousands of autosport lovers who drive junky daily drivers. i would love for you to tell them that. specially the handful of us in here that love the sport.

cmon

10/6/2008 10:21:33 AM

and i know a lot of folks who run a better tire on the street than your typical econobox tires... and i havnt heard a single person praise their tires that it saved them from something.

im telling you, street tires are the way to go. 80K warranty...

10/6/2008 10:26:29 AM

10/6/2008 11:08:00 AM

^^ my MTR's have saved me a few times but... i don't know if they count... they're way stickier than most o.r. tires though...

10/6/2008 11:20:43 AM

Quote :

"i'm not sure where you get those figures from"

how much do a set of V710s or A6s cost? how long do you realistically think they'll last on the street? Let's say an average set is ~$800. Do you honestly think you could get 1000 miles out of a set of A6s? Let's take a set of RT-615s that cost ~$500 a set (in my size, at least). I get 12-15k miles out of them. Do the math yourself.


I've done the drive to an autocross, add air to the tires, and drive. Now I drive there, swap a set of r-comps, and drive.


And I have been saved by some very sticky street tires before, but almost been hurt by them in the wet as well. Unless I had a softly suspended sedan, I will continue using MP or XP level tires for the street and deal with only getting 15k miles out of a set.

10/6/2008 11:26:04 AM

ok. let me define "aggressive driving" for you. You're coming up on an intersection. Its empty and the visibility is clear. You can see in all 4 directions. You make a right turn without slowing down. The tires dont even break traction. If you consider that "dangerous", i'd say 70-80% of people drive "dangerously" everyday. I don't run A6's or V710's on the street. I know people that do, but I just have a set of rt615s. I have saved my car from being t-boned 2 times now from people running lights, and once from a driver not paying attention to the blind spot. All three times it was a really close call, and the added traction kept me out of an accident. I'm not saying that if you don't drive "aggressive" you don't love motorsport. I specifically said "if you care about street performance".

^^ the look on that girl's face is priceless

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 6:29 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 6:24:03 PM

rt615s are the cheapest tire money can buy. who do you know that drives Hoosiers to work?

are you trolling or really as retarded as you come off?

10/6/2008 6:27:04 PM

lol

Quote :

"STREET PER FORMANCE"

10/6/2008 6:28:17 PM

if you are really that into it, you wouldn't be buying azeni's.

10/6/2008 6:34:00 PM

LOL

10/6/2008 6:41:30 PM