http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/18/frankens-senate-victory-c_n_152241.html

...the fuck?

12/18/2008 10:36:47 PM

old

12/18/2008 10:38:37 PM

i heard an analysis on the radio the other day that the amount of votes they keep coming up as a difference between them are, literally, a statistical tie. They are way below the margin of error in any kind of count - machine, optical, hand, etc. Neither of them can legitimately claim to have won, and we will probably never know who did get the most votes

12/18/2008 10:47:09 PM

its the problem with our voting system.

no matter how many times you count the vote, you'll never get the same count twice.

when its a statistical tie, like this, they might as well do a best-2-out-of-3 coin toss. Or Rock-Scissors-Paper. or something.

the Washington governor's race in 2004 was the same thing.

it winds up getting decided by the secretary of state and maybe the state supreme court.

12/18/2008 11:11:41 PM

Russian Roulette perhaps?

12/18/2008 11:12:53 PM

If you eliminate paper ballots you don't need the retarded recount system.

12/18/2008 11:13:53 PM

Quote :

"i heard an analysis on the radio the other day that the amount of votes they keep coming up as a difference between them are, literally, a statistical tie. They are way below the margin of error in any kind of count - machine, optical, hand, etc. Neither of them can legitimately claim to have won, and we will probably never know who did get the most votes"

This is exactly the case. The "noise" which can be attributed to human error hand-counting, machine errors, etc. is something on the order of 0.1%.

The election outcome is well within even this margin. Which means, statistically speaking, there's no reasonable way a winner can be declared - there's no way to pick out the "signal" so weak (i.e., the margin) in this noise level.

It'd be interesting to hear a statistician speak up on the matter.

12/18/2008 11:14:18 PM

^^ not true. and elimination of paper ballots opens up opportunities for electronic fraud

^ true, but a winner will be picked. basically the Sec State and/or State Supreme Court will decide when they've had enough recounts and who ever is winning the most recent recount will be the winner.

flawed, but its the best we got.



[Edited on December 18, 2008 at 11:17 PM. Reason : ]

12/18/2008 11:16:37 PM

Quote :

"^ true, but a winner will be picked. basically the Sec State and/or State Supreme Court will decide when they've had enough recounts and who ever is winning the most recent recount will be the winner."

I should rephrase. There is no way a winner can be declared from the votes. Inevitably it will fall to whatever provision they have in their laws. (I think it actually comes down to a coin flip.)

The problem of course is that neither of these men wants to concede the fact that statistics denies them a clear victory from the ballot box.

12/18/2008 11:21:32 PM

Quote :

"its the problem with our voting system."

yeah but its probably the best in the world

12/18/2008 11:33:14 PM

^ 'Merica! Fuck Yeah!!

^^ i dont know about any "coin flip". that sounds like some kind of urban legend.

in the case of WA gov race of 2004, the initial machine count showed Dino Rossi (R) beat Chris Gregoire (D) very small margin - 261 votes. This triggered an automatic recount by state law. this first recount (also machine) had Rossi (R) leading by only 47 votes. then a manual hand count was requested and sanctioned by the State Supreme Court, results of which ultimately gave Gregoire (D) the lead by 129 votes.

The Secretary of State (a Republican, FWIW) certified this second recount (the hand recount) as the valid election result and declared Gregoire the winner. State Republicans filed a lawsuit in federal court, but the judge ruled they had no evidence backing their claim of illegitimate votes.

so there is no coin toss. just "the powers that be" make a determination of when to stop the recounts.





[Edited on December 18, 2008 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ]

12/18/2008 11:34:06 PM

Quote :

"yeah but its probably the best in the world"

(no it isn't)

[Edited on December 18, 2008 at 11:35 PM. Reason : not even close]

12/18/2008 11:35:17 PM

Ah shit.

Dems are only 1 seat away from a supermajority. That's disturbing.

12/19/2008 12:16:02 AM

not as disturbing as zero.

amirite?






[Edited on December 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM. Reason : (anyhow, you can't count Lieberman)]

12/19/2008 12:35:27 AM

i like the way oregon does elections

12/19/2008 12:36:56 AM

Quote :

"i dont know about any 'coin flip'. that sounds like some kind of urban legend."

joe_schmoe

Wrong again, schmoe. Navia aut caput has a long history going back at least to Roman times. A coin flip is used more often than you think to settle disputes between two parties.

Quote :

"In some jurisdictions, a coin is flipped to decide between two candidates who poll equal number of votes in an election, or two companies tendering equal prices for a project. (For example, a coin toss decided a City of Toronto tender in 2003 for painting lines on 1,605 km of city streets: the bids were $161,110.00, $146,584.65, and two equal bids of $111,242.55. The numerical coincidence is less remarkable than it seems at first blush, because three of the four bids work out to an integral number of cents per kilometer.)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin_flipping

Quote :

"All the sensible, civic-minded spirit doesn't guarantee the losing camp won't sue when it's all over. But Minnesota law, which was perfected after a gubernatorial recount in 1962, has a plan in case of a dead tie: a coin flip. The state already did one this year for a school-board seat in Farmington. Ritchie has been looking around for a good coin for the Coleman-Franken race; he says the quarter with Minnesota on the back is the way to go. 'I was watching Leatherheads, the football movie, and you realize there are angles on coin-tossing as well. Who flips it? Who calls it?' By next year, rest assured, Minnesota will have the best coin-flipping law anywhere."

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1866262,00.html?iid=tsmodule

Quote :

"Luckily, Minnesota's electoral law has a provision for ties. After all the counting and recounting, if the vote is statistically tied, the state should invoke the section of the law that requires the victor to be chosen by lot. It's hard to swallow, but the right way to end the senatorial race between Mr. Coleman and Mr. Franken will be to flip a coin."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/opinion/04seife.html?_r=2

12/19/2008 3:03:18 AM

I honestly, truly, really don't care if a Democrat wins the race in question.

But I am truly, profoundly, indescribably upset that the democrat in question might be Al Franken.

Let's not only elect a comedian, but also the least funny comedian of his class, and elect him to office because he wrote a book.

My loathing for the man transcends all description.

12/19/2008 4:24:59 AM

12/19/2008 4:33:38 AM

Quote :

"Let's not only elect a comedian, but also the least funny comedian of his class, and elect him to office because he wrote a book. My loathing for the man transcends all description."

Yeah, I read that book (Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot). It wasn't funny, but it was stupid.

12/19/2008 10:36:39 AM

Okay, so the coin toss does play a part in ties for Minnesota.

It didn't for the tie in Washington, but i stand corrected.

and yes, I'll admit I don't much care for Al Franken. I'm not real happy about him representing Democrats in the Senate.


[Edited on December 19, 2008 at 12:30 PM. Reason : ]

12/19/2008 12:26:49 PM

haha am I the only person that hopes Franken wins???

I say that despite my strong distaste for the current Democratic congress and the prospect of Dems getting one seat closer to a super majority. Why? Because I think he will stir shit up. He speaks mind and isn't afraid to call people out for saying or doing stupid things. In fact, I think there is a 70% chance he will call Harry Reid an idiot on the Senate floor within his first year in office.

And if Lying Liars didn't make you laugh, you need to travel back in-time 4 years and read it again. I remember quite enjoying it.

[Edited on December 19, 2008 at 1:06 PM. Reason : Personality > Policy? Maybe in this case. ]

12/19/2008 1:01:53 PM

Quote :

"In fact, I think there is a 70% chance he will call Harry Reid an idiot on the Senate floor within his first year in office"

if he does that, I will join his fan club.

Quote :

"Hey, did Jim Jeffords become as important as everyone expected him to be 7 years ago?"

who?





[Edited on December 19, 2008 at 1:05 PM. Reason : ]

12/19/2008 1:04:45 PM

so...

we're really going to have a former SNL cast member as a US Senator

I can't say I think this is all that great...

12/19/2008 1:21:00 PM

We had a B-movie actor as president, and an actor from law and order running for the republican presidential candidate.

But don't forget about the professional wrestler that was governor, or the austrian fitness guru/gay idol turned actor turned california governor.

At least comedians actively ridicule society and politics so you know they're generally in the loop.

12/19/2008 1:26:25 PM

12/19/2008 1:35:45 PM

I always thought my vote didn't really matter unless it was a really really close election

Now it looks like even then it doesn't matter

12/19/2008 1:36:56 PM

dennis miller needs to run now

12/19/2008 2:43:59 PM

^ Haha i would totally vote for him. Though I guess he'd prob run in NY?
Either way, I've always thought he made good points in very humorous ways.

Really, I'm surprised we don't have more "fun"/celeb politicians at the house/senate level. I mean, I would never vote for Franken or Miller to be President, but in the senate they got 98 other people to keep them from fucking things up too badly (not to mention the house and President). Besides, I think having a couple of obnoxious, populist loudmouths in congress could really improve collective decision making. Maybe the "serious" congressmen and women would avoid some glaringly hypocritical or self-serving behaviors if they were openly mocked on the senate floor.

12/19/2008 3:16:40 PM

i spent a week working this recount before thanksgiving. it was...interesting.

12/19/2008 3:39:15 PM

well, come on.

you gotta give us a bit more than that....

12/19/2008 6:42:40 PM

Quote :

"We had a B-movie actor as president, and an actor from law and order running for the republican presidential candidate. But don't forget about the professional wrestler that was governor, or the austrian fitness guru/gay idol turned actor turned california governor. At least comedians actively ridicule society and politics so you know they're generally in the loop."

SkankinMonky



Yeah, we're only a few election cycles away from President Camacho.

12/20/2008 7:34:36 AM

attn: republicans calling out al franken for his comedy

YOU WORSHIP THE GUY FROM BEDTIME FOR BONZO

12/20/2008 1:48:02 PM

Quote :

"That November, Reagan was re-elected, winning 49 of 50 states.[138] The president's landslide victory saw Mondale carry only his home state of Minnesota (by 3800 votes) and the District of Columbia. Reagan won a record 525 electoral votes, the most of any candidate in United States history,[139] and received 58.8% of the popular vote to Mondale's 40.6%.["

hate on reagan, but you wont win

12/20/2008 5:27:53 PM

Obama is a big enough joke, but I can't believe that people would actually vote for a hack like Franken. It has nothing to do with his career as a comedian, he's just a joke.

12/20/2008 5:57:09 PM

He's good enough, he's smart enough, and doggone it, people like him!

12/20/2008 7:20:39 PM

Quote :

"attn: republicans calling out al franken for his comedy YOU WORSHIP THE GUY FROM BEDTIME FOR BONZO"

bad actors > bad comedians

At least bad actors occasionally make you laugh.

12/20/2008 7:26:45 PM

Yeah, sure....
Franken isn't a good comedian.
His success must have come from something else.
Yeah, it's your opinion that matters....

Remember,

Quote :

"At least comedians actively ridicule society and politics so you know they're generally in the loop"

(Parker-Stone '12)

Franken may or may not be the ideal candidate, and although I'm aware of the danger, I'm always glad when any politician is elected that:
- has never held any governmental office before
- has never served in the military
- isn't a lawyer or CEO

12/22/2008 10:13:11 AM

Quote :

"I honestly, truly, really don't care if a Democrat wins the race in question. But I am truly, profoundly, indescribably upset that the democrat in question might be Al Franken. Let's not only elect a comedian, but also the least funny comedian of his class, and elect him to office because he wrote a book. My loathing for the man transcends all description."

fuckin A

12/22/2008 10:31:29 AM

Quote :

"If you eliminate paper ballots you don't need the retarded recount system."

Not only is that not true because of fraud, but also electronic systems use memory cartridges mostly, and all of the cartridges are downloaded to a central counting computer - so lost and recovered cartridges could be just as much of a problem.

12/22/2008 11:22:57 AM

^^
Yeah, GrumpyGOP is off his rocker.
If Franken is so incredibly unfunny, then where did all of his success come from? I mean, he's received 7 emmy nominations and won 3 of them, he graduated harvard cum laude, and he was rehired as a writer for saturday night live. Rehired? Yeah, he must not be funny. Just because some of you might not find him funny, you can't deny that he is -- his entire career speaks to that fact.

Quote :

"If you eliminate paper ballots you don't need the retarded recount system."

The only thing retarded is your point.

12/22/2008 11:37:10 AM

Quote :

"he was rehired as a writer for saturday night live. Rehired? Yeah, he must not be funny"

Arguing the humor of modern day SNL isn't going to get your argument very far

His only funny stuff on SNL that comes to mind for me is when he would be the on-scene reporter with the satellite dish on his head...half of time the Stuart Smalley skits were terrible

12/22/2008 12:12:50 PM

yeah, but the other half of the time they were pretty good

12/22/2008 12:25:56 PM

well im sorry, being funny half the time just isnt good enough to be a senator

12/22/2008 12:48:33 PM

(you also have to remember that he wrote a lot of stuff that he didn't personally perform. i would wager to bet from his other work that acting isn't his particular strong point, writing is)

12/22/2008 2:52:22 PM

^
Exactly. His emmy nominations and awards were for writing comedy. Not only is he funny, he's brilliant.
Anyone can state their opinion, but any claim that Al Franken isn't funny is untrue.

12/22/2008 3:08:44 PM

Quote :

"Arguing the humor of modern day SNL isn't going to get your argument very far"

He has written for SNL since like the early 70s, dude.

He's fucking hilarious. You can't judge him entirely by Smiley and shit.

12/22/2008 4:06:18 PM

^ He's funny on paper, but I can't recall him actually ever doing anything funny.

Also, what does it matter how funny he is anyway?

12/22/2008 4:19:36 PM

thought he was good in trading places...

12/22/2008 4:21:05 PM

Apparently the dem leadership is considering seatig him come Tuesday because right now he's up in votes. I would have to say that's a dumb move on their part. Leaving the seat empty isn't a disaster, and if he ends up loosing, everybody looks stupid.....

1/3/2009 12:59:29 PM

agreed

the way they are handling this and the burris thing is quite sad

1/3/2009 1:00:51 PM