http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm

This latest round of violence has been brewing for a while now, but it looks like its spinning out of control now. 227 Palestinians dead in a single set of Israeli air raids. The cynic in me wants to say that this is nothing new, but the Palestinian casualties for this particular run are simply too high to ignore.

At this rate, my guess is that it's going to require at least another six months to a year of bloodletting before both sides tire enough to even think about discussing a ceasefire, let alone peace, again.

12/27/2008 11:38:01 PM

i didnt consider the casualties to be high

[Edited on December 27, 2008 at 11:41 PM. Reason : .]

12/27/2008 11:41:15 PM

it is fundamentally impossible for there to be peace in that region

we need to quit throwing money into that black hole

12/28/2008 12:08:44 AM

is anyone throwing rocks?
There must be rock-throwing.

12/28/2008 12:20:12 AM

if i recall, Hamas broke the truce last week by launching indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel. Despite warnings to stop they did not. Israel thus retaliated against military targets.



Countdown to the anti-Israel folks start blaming Israel

12/28/2008 6:11:44 AM

People blame Israel for the violence because of their stance.
"If you kill one of us, we will kill 20 of you," type of thing. And if you know anything about an insurgency that type of response only creates more insurgents.
But they are just protecting their own, even if their response is very heavy-handed.

12/28/2008 7:58:51 AM

yes but they target Military and Government targets with precision air strikes. is there collateral damage, of course, but its unintended. the Palestinians indiscriminately target civilians.

and it was Hamas who broke the truce/ceasefire

12/28/2008 8:52:10 AM

The ceasefire "expired" about a week ago, after a 6-month agreement. Since then, about 300 rockets have been fired into southern Israel, scaring old ladies and only occasionally hitting something or someone.

Israel has been dealing with these rocket attacks from Gaza ever since it pulled out of the area. Even though they aren't particularly deadly, Olmert and the Israelis are tired of dealing with the shit and they want a change. They are prepping for a ground invasion, and they'll likely entrench themselves in the region for a while, despite the outcries of the Arab world about those poor, poor Gazans. Obama will have to deal with it.

12/28/2008 11:32:15 AM

Yup, and I see nothing wrong with Israel defending itself. The ceasefire ended and Hamas chose to initiate hostility against Israel. Just because the 300 rockets have not killed tons of people doesnt make it ok. If some Mexican group was lobbing rockets into Brownsville Texas, I would want a military response. Of course we cant even close our borders here, but I digress. You get the point

12/28/2008 11:54:13 AM

Quote :

"is there collateral damage, of course, but its unintended. "

L O L

12/28/2008 12:57:20 PM

Here's an AlJazeera English report, where the voiceover sounds like an FM radio promo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAZrpVL73kE

12/28/2008 2:13:57 PM

typical anti-Israel reply. Whats more intended: purposely and indiscriminately lobbing hundreds of crude unguided rockets into civilian areas, or using state of the art precision guided weapons, delivered by highly sophisticated aircraft flown by professional expert pilots, to attack military and government targets which have been purposely placed near civilian areas by the enemy so that they can cry on TV when said civilian is accidentally killed in said attack which they brought upon themselves in the first place.

Dont answer that, its rhetorical.

12/28/2008 2:17:26 PM

I saw on TV that even Abbas has blamed the Palestinians/Hamas for the death of the Palestinans.

12/28/2008 2:20:52 PM

I agree, there was a ceasefire and calm for many months, all Hamas did was bring on the bloodshed once again

And Im not a Zionist by the way, or even totally pro Israel....Im just calling this one how I see it. Hell I wish the truce was not broken and that 100s of people did not have to die for no damn reason.



[Edited on December 28, 2008 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2008 2:22:15 PM

this shit is silly. will this nonsense be still going on 50 years from now?

12/28/2008 4:18:18 PM

well, its been going on for the last 50, i see no indication that it wont continue for another 50

12/28/2008 5:35:22 PM

Quote :

"typical anti-Israel reply. Whats more intended: purposely and indiscriminately lobbing hundreds of crude unguided rockets into civilian areas, or using state of the art precision guided weapons, delivered by highly sophisticated aircraft flown by professional expert pilots, to attack military and government targets which have been purposely placed near civilian areas by the enemy so that they can cry on TV when said civilian is accidentally killed in said attack which they brought upon themselves in the first place. Dont answer that, its rhetorical."

Why don't you answer the question then?

Because it perfectly illustrates why claiming the deaths were "unintentional" is pretty absurd.

12/28/2008 7:19:31 PM

I want to know what kind of rockets Hamas is using if they're not killing anyone or damaging hardly anything even though they lob tens/hundreds of them at a time.

12/28/2008 9:27:04 PM

Bottle rockets.

12/29/2008 4:05:20 AM

old Russian Katuysha rockets

12/29/2008 6:09:20 AM

Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization that should be eradicated.

Yes, Israel is a regime that relies on heavy handed attacks and the backing of the US to maintain its existence.


Israel sounds like a more democratic and slightly less self hating version of Iraq from the 80's.

12/29/2008 9:05:10 AM

Quote :

"Israel sounds like a more democratic and slightly less self hating version of Iraq from the 80's."

What?

12/29/2008 9:28:50 AM

Backed by the US with military weapons, unpopular regime in the area (and somewhat with its own citizens) has no problem wiping out its neighbor as long as the US is promising protection.


Bottom line is the middle east is fucked up, all of DEM PEOPLE.

12/29/2008 10:54:11 AM

Yeah.... no. Iraq received US military hardware? Iraq had US protection? The Israeli government isn't unpopular within Israel (opposition to ruling party, of course, but that is apples and oranges compared to Iraq). Iraq launched two aggressive campaigns against there neighbors for conquest. Israel, however much you dislike there tactics, haven't tried to conquer anything (currently, arguably in the past). Terrible analogy.

12/29/2008 4:06:13 PM

1. Israel is NOT targeting civilians. In contrast, Hamas is launching rockets into populated areas.

2. Israel pulled out of Gaza--what the fuck else do "they" want?

3. Hamas used the "ceasefire" as an opportunity to bring in even more weapons.

4. Hamas promptly violated the "ceasefire."

5. Israel waited until the "ceasefire" had expired to attack--even though it was being attacked.

6. If ONE such rocket landed in the United States--in a populated area or otherwise--the overwhelming majority of our citizens would be calling for the entity to be wiped off the map.

7. Anyone who equates Israel's legitimate right to (1) exist and (2) to defend itself against vicious attacks with the terrorist actions of Hamas et al is a foaming moonbat, an idiot, a terrorist, or all of the aforementioned.

12/29/2008 5:58:50 PM

Quote :

"Anyone who equates Israel's legitimate right to (1) exist and (2) to defend itself against vicious attacks with the terrorist actions of Hamas et al is a foaming moonbat, an idiot, a terrorist, or all of the aforementioned."

12/29/2008 7:41:47 PM

hello, moonbat I think hooksaw hit it pretty well with his post, though, aside from the final diatribe against dissenters. We would be going apeshit if Mexico was lobbing artillery across the Rio Grande. However, I am all for changing our relations with Israel to the point where we say "no more money, and we'll bail on your ass diplomatically if we think you are out of line"

12/29/2008 7:45:18 PM

I don't think we need to be doing much with regards to the state of middle east relations as long as the oil continues to flow. Once we no longer need that we can really say fuck it.

I for one wouldn't mind it if Israel starting wiping out thousands of muslims every time one of theirs is killed. They are surrounded by country's full of backwards barbarians with a piss poor culture who feel that it's okay to shoot rockets into civilian areas with no provocation or send suicide bombers into market places. Fuck 'em.

12/29/2008 7:53:01 PM

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2008/12/zbig_smacks_dow.php
"You have a such stunningly superficial knowledge of what went on it's almost embarrassing to listen to you"
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski

hah


[Edited on December 30, 2008 at 1:40 PM. Reason : ]

12/30/2008 1:37:03 PM

so is this Mubarak guy a douchebag or an ok guy?

12/31/2008 2:57:42 AM

Mubarak is one of those guys we put up with because the alternatives are that much scarier. He's also been pretty good about keeping the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt.

12/31/2008 3:11:09 AM

Here's another good article on how Hamas came to power and US covert ops: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

12/31/2008 3:17:42 AM

^good read....I've always been amazed at how the bush admin repeatedly painted itself into corners with its black and white directives.

12/31/2008 11:22:26 AM

photoset
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html

12/31/2008 10:17:26 PM

Quote :

"The Closing of George Washington's Farewell Address Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct. And can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at not distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! Is it rendered impossible by its vices? In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential that that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim. So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base of foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation. [etcetera] "

http://www.postwtc.com/gw-fwa.html



[Edited on December 31, 2008 at 11:29 PM. Reason : dude knew what he was talking about]

12/31/2008 11:28:40 PM

Quote :

"7. Anyone who equates Israel's legitimate right to (1) exist and (2) to defend itself against vicious attacks with the terrorist actions of Hamas et al is a foaming moonbat, an idiot, a terrorist, or all of the aforementioned. "

The problem with this line of thought is that it gets them no where. For various reasons, Israel maintaining the status quo (and in this case making it worse) will spell their demise in the long run. Inciting MORE terrorism against them by killing 300 more people, while their population growth rate is negative is a bad idea. If you support their line of retaliation, you either WANT Israel to eventually be wiped out, or are so shockingly naive its embarrassing to listen to you.

1/1/2009 1:55:18 AM

http://yaacovlozowick.blogspot.com/2009/01/waging-war-israeli-way.html

Quote :

"First, Israel clearly has created a sophisticated GIS (geographic information system). A system that records tens of thousands of buildings, their location, and their distance from each other. Then there's a database with the names of the tens of thousands of families who live in the buildings, and the phone number of each family. The system has the ability to identify all the families and phone numbers that could be affected by an attack on any given building. Finally, given the numbers involved, there must be a system that automatically makes concurrent phone calls to dozens of families, since everybody has to have the same ten-minute warning."

1/5/2009 3:10:43 PM

IMO, the muslims of the area have brought things like ^ upon themselves. the moderates do nothing but sit back and let the radicals dominate the politics.

how anyone defends Hamas is absolutely beyond me.

1/5/2009 3:39:19 PM

Protests against the fighting have been exciting here in Albuquerque.

Have any demonstrations gone down in the Raleigh area?

1/5/2009 3:48:47 PM

Quote :

"If you support their line of retaliation, you either WANT Israel to eventually be wiped out, or are so shockingly naive its embarrassing to listen to you."

actualmoron

After several days time, it's good to see that you finally got your talking points together.

Mayor Bloomberg remarks on Israel's right to defend itself

Quote :

"I just wanted to say that I feel very strongly that Israel really does have a right, in fact an obligation, to defend itself against terrorist attacks. New Yorkers certainly know what it's like to be targeted by terrorists and we also know the importance of fighting back, and I really do want to strongly condemn the repeated attacks on Israel and Hamas's decision to break last summer's ceasefire. I think we all had great hopes last summer that people could live together in peace and that, unfortunately, at the moment is not the case. The last time I was in Israel I did see the effect of those attacks on the Israeli people. I visited Sderot where the mayor showed me what daily life is under a constant barrage of rocket attacks from Gaza, and, I saw and I heard during that visit, and it's come back to me time and time again over the last few weeks just as the holiday season shared this year by Jews and Muslims and Christians was shattered when Hamas broke the ceasefire and launched rocket attacks against - and mortar attacks - against Israel. I think both the Bush Administration and the Obama team have been clear that Hamas must end its terrorist attacks, and I stand firmly behind Israel and all we can do is pray for a more peaceful 2009. Everybody should have a right to live their lives without worrying about their safety, whether it's safety on the streets from criminals or attacks by terrorists coming in from the air or suicide bombers or anything else. We just have to find a way in 2009 to stop killing each other, which, unfortunately, terrorists seem determined to continue to do."

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/mayor_bloomberg_remarks_on_isr.html

1/5/2009 4:04:28 PM

Quote :

"old Russian Katuysha rockets"

are these the ones that scare the shit out of anyone within earshot? they "scream" when they are inbound?

1/5/2009 4:06:56 PM

A couple of intrepid counter-protesters showed up on Saturday with a sign that read, "If America can kill terrorists so can Israel." Things didn't go too well for them. Folks kept on trying to block their sign from view.

[Edited on January 5, 2009 at 4:11 PM. Reason : o]

1/5/2009 4:11:05 PM

I something about the israeli tanks the other day...those things are no joke. Their army puts soldier protection above everything else, every part of the design was intended to keep the people inside alive since man power is at a premium there...they had a smoking female driver explaining everything too.

seems like hamas wants to draw Israel into an urban battle....either they don't and many many palestinian civilians are killed with bomb raids (which helps with international support), or Israel goes in which levels the field, or both.

1/5/2009 4:23:20 PM

Hamas' tactics are all centered around maximizing civilian casualties around them, thereby garnering world sympathy, muslim sympathy and making the Israeli's look bad. not unlike the fighters in Iraq who did the same thing until said civlians got fed up with it.

what I cant understand is why the moderate muslim civilians put up with it. the Iraqis didnt.

1/5/2009 4:27:26 PM

as if this isnt 3000 years in the making ... 1. who cares ; this has been going on since antiquity, it wont change

1/5/2009 4:34:54 PM

Hamas has alwasy struck me as the little bitch at the playground from our youth. The one that punches you in the arm then hurries to yell "time out" as you go to hit him back. Then says "time in" before he punches you again. Then as you start hitting him he just keeps whining for you to stop as he yells "time out" over and over again.

1/5/2009 4:48:20 PM

Quote :

"what I cant understand is why the moderate muslim civilians put up with it. the Iraqis didnt."

Because Iraqi civilians realized that the sooner the terrorists were gone the quicker the US would leave. Compare that to Israel/Palestine, and the Muslims know that the Israelis are not just going to pick up one day and leave.

1/5/2009 4:48:57 PM

There is a big Pro-Palestinian rally at the Belltower at the moment

1/5/2009 4:53:49 PM

There is no just stance to take in this conflict and there never will be.

1/5/2009 4:54:18 PM

Quote :

"There is a big Pro-Palestinian rally at the Belltower at the moment "

Send in the Zohan

1/5/2009 4:55:28 PM