What do you all think? Does the Iraq-war experience serve as a good analogy for Americans' wishful thinking?

As we were invading Iraq, far too many people held the simplistic view that the U.S. could somehow quickly, efficiently and justly free the people of Iraq and institute a democracy. Only ex post did we learn how much more arduous and complex the task really is. Before hand, it seemed to be so simple. In the end, however, it proved disastrous. This provides the perfect analogy for the plethora of failed government programs we have today. At the beginning, we oversimplify the ease at which programs can be implemented. We underestimate the true costs they incur and we do not think about the multiple unintended consequences that later take place. I see the three biggest federal programs as evidence enough that the American people continue to engage in this wishful thinking. Medicare started out as a much smaller and inexpensive program. Today it is gargantuan and insolvent. Its reimbursements have been widely criticized for decades yet have remained in place. Its bureaucracy takes ages to make decisions, yet we ignore these inefficiencies. Social Security, too, started out as a much smaller program. Today, it is insolvent. The bi-partisan Congressional Budget Office advised congress several years ago that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are so insolvent that we simply cannot raise taxes enough to cover their costs. Yet the American people continue their call for ever-larger programs.. By ignoring our past failures, Americans continue to overestimate the government’s ability to execute welfare programs, underestimate their true costs and overestimate our ability to pay for it all. With the Iraq war fresh in our minds, perhaps we should think again before we take on such massive, cumbersome and often-irreversible endeavors.

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

2/27/2009 9:57:30 AM

I feel that this is a flawed strategy disguised as conventional wisdom that has spread amongst the minds of millions of American youths. This is not an effective way to prevent the financial and emotional burdens of fatherhood. Wear a rubber.

2/27/2009 10:01:16 AM

Pulling out doesn't always work. Condoms are much more effective.




And, Iraq wants us out, lets get the fuck out. 50k troops? Why that many? Drop it down to 5-10k actual competent advisers and then give them a time line as well.

2/27/2009 10:03:27 AM

remember, Bill Clinton warned against premature withdrawal

2/27/2009 10:05:07 AM

Quote :

"As we were invading Iraq, far too many people held the simplistic view that the U.S. could somehow quickly, efficiently and justly free the people of Iraq and institute a democracy. Only ex post did we learn how much more arduous and complex the task really is. Before hand, it seemed to be so simple. In the end, however, it proved disastrous."

People only had this view because this is what our leadership was telling people.

2/27/2009 10:35:07 AM

Quote :

"efficiently and justly free the people of Iraq and institute a democracy."

In reality the US has shown through out modern history that we truly don't care as much about spreading democracy and freedom. What we are really after is installing a US friendly regime that will also be beneficial to our trade and businesses. Debateable is if this is ok or not.

In my opinion some places in the world are better off without a democracy oriented government. As I believe a threshold of education within the population is necessary for citizens as a whole to make informed rational decisions. Some places are better off with a strong leader who can control his population and make informed decisions. The contrary being people blowing each other up because such and such person is a different branch of the same fucking religion.

Keep in mind though that democracy does not equal freedom and it only guarentees political freedom. A democratically elected
executive branch or legislature can just as easily restrict economic and social freedoms as a dictator albeit it takes more propraganda, paper work, and effort.

The spreading freedums and democracy USA #1 stuff is just propraganda we use to pat our back and gain approval of our interventionalist foreign policy.

I

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 11:07 AM. Reason : as]

2/27/2009 11:07:36 AM

im glad that terrorists and insurgents know our game plan, not through taliban intelligence reports, but our president's weekly updates

2/27/2009 8:32:04 PM

maybe the pullout plan is all a ploy to catch the terrorist offguard

Quote :

"im glad that terrorists and insurgents know our game pla"

besides its about time those towel heads took care of their own terrorists.

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 9:47 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on February 27, 2009 at 9:47 PM. Reason : a]

2/27/2009 9:46:12 PM

Perhaps Obama thinks that the war on the poor can be won, we just need a surge on the domestic front. Afterall, if the surge worked in Iraq then surely ramping-up domestic spending to here-before unseen levels will cure our societal ills. Only government can do it, more specifically only Obama's government can do it.

Sadly Obama's surge will not be temporary. This outrageous and dangerous spending spree will reset a new baseline for federal spending. Pathetic republicans will fail to actually call for real cuts in spending and we fiscal conservatives will spend the rest of our lifetimes watching the government sanction more and more of our pay to be stolen for some supposedly noble goal.

2/28/2009 12:09:29 AM

sorry, but i have to do this



[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 12:17 AM. Reason : i know this isnt chit chat theduke, but this is 100% necessary for this thread]

2/28/2009 12:16:10 AM

Quote :

"im glad that terrorists and insurgents know our game plan, not through taliban intelligence reports, but our president's weekly updates"

its almost as good as when the president gets up and says "DEAD OR ALIVE" on a pile of rubble and then doesn't actually care when the cameras are gone

or that time the president was all like "BRING EM ON" and then some guys got burned alive and hung from a bridge


ITS ALREADY BEEEEEN B-RRRROUGHT

2/28/2009 3:43:22 AM

i'm watching obama's speech from lejune today

some serious shit is going to have to happen in this country for him not to get AT LEAST two terms

2/28/2009 3:53:16 AM

Quote :

"im glad that terrorists and insurgents know our game plan, not through taliban intelligence reports, but our president's weekly updates"

yes, because bush would have just landed 10k transport planes the day of the withdrawal to get everything out as a big surprise

2/28/2009 5:23:13 AM

Don't see why this is a big deal? The timeline he is proposing is relatively the same that the Army was planning a year and a half ago....

2/28/2009 9:29:14 AM

I predict the terrorism in Iraq will all but cease until most of our troops are gone. Then a massive influx of terrorism will take place. I hope the solid groundwork the US troops have provided the Iraqi's is enough for them to conquer it themselves or else the US will have to go back in and we will have fellujah all over again.

2/28/2009 11:36:23 AM

ALL the troops have to be out by dec. 2011 anyway per the agreement between the iraqi government and the BUSH adminstration.

im glad that terrorists and insurgents knew our game plan, not through taliban intelligence reports, but our FORMER president's weekly updates

right tke?

2/28/2009 11:37:40 AM

Quote :

"I predict the terrorism in Iraq will all but cease until most of our troops are gone. Then a massive influx of terrorism will take place. I hope the solid groundwork the US troops have provided the I"

Who gives a shit; once we are gone it is an Iraqi problem. Oh Knows teh turrists are coming. If our mission is to assist countries who have active terrorist cells regularly threatening the countries stability I assure you there is a long list of places we also could help out.

Quote :

"raqi's is enough for them to conquer it themselves or else the US will have to go back in and we will have fellujah all over again."

Kinda ironic eh? take a look at Afghanistan
No there will be no Fellujah all over again b.c we will not/ should not give a shit. We are actually elevating our troop levels in Afghanistan b.c unlike Iraq were not "Mission Accomplished"; they got the back burner while we focused on Iraq.

Quote :

"right tke?"

Don't worry about him. Had that been McPalin making the exact same speech (have won teh election) he'd be liek "hell yeah awesome speech, thank god we elected McPalin, the whiny pussy liberals would have pulled out immediately in January and appeased Al Qaeda by allowing them to take over Iraq"

[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 11:45 AM. Reason : k]

2/28/2009 11:43:21 AM

Quote :

"Who gives a shit; once we are gone it is an Iraqi problem. Oh Knows teh turrists are coming. If our mission is to assist countries who have active terrorist cells regularly threatening the countries stability I assure you there is a long list of places we also could help out."

So you are saying we shouldn't care what happens to Iraq after we leave? If there is a resurgance of terror we shouldn't care just let it be. I agree we have to let the Iraqis run the country but if it gets back to the point of civil war then we can't afford a terrorist nation. Iraq isn't some country with terrorist cells trying to overthrow the government. We have a grave steak in Iraq and every American should want it to succeed.

2/28/2009 12:01:52 PM

We should want everyone to suceed. But do we really have a grave interest in the country? You can argue we are morally responsible for the country since we broke it, but that is all it is. If Iraq goes to crap our only interest should be to prevent U.S. terrorism; who runs the country of Iraq is not terribly our concern.

2/28/2009 12:13:33 PM

Quote :

"So you are saying we shouldn't care what happens to Iraq after we leave?"

funny - nobody in Amurica seemed to care about what happened in Iraq before W. convinced us that Saddam was going to kill us all

2/28/2009 12:20:37 PM

^ gg.

Quote :

"Iraq isn't some country with terrorist cells trying to overthrow the government. "

of course not... iraq is a country that had no terrorist cells but now has the most muslim terrorists in the world thanks to bush.




[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 12:28 PM. Reason : ]

2/28/2009 12:28:31 PM

Quote :

"then we can't afford a terrorist nation"

a terrorist nation is kind of a oxymoron.

A nation can support freedom fighters/ rebels/ terrorists for causes they support. Yet the term terrorist nation does not compute. A political faction having won power within a sovereign country would no longer need to resort to asymmetric warfare to accomplish its goals. Despotic or autocratic sure but terrorist state lol. I think you have been watching to many George Dubya speeches and propaganda.

Quote :

"of course not... iraq is a country that had no terrorist cells but now has the most muslim terrorists in the world thanks to bush."

Exactly. Saddam was a totalitarian but secular ruler. The radical Islamic people within Iraq were scared to shitless to even try anything.

Quote :

"If Iraq goes to crap our only interest should be to prevent U.S. terrorism; who runs the country of Iraq is not terribly our concern."

Exactly let somebody else play world police for once.

[Edited on February 28, 2009 at 12:52 PM. Reason : l]

2/28/2009 12:50:13 PM

i'm gonna be a neocon for just a moment here

i think the problem with the "let someone else be worldcop" is that the people who would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be the world cops practice sharia law

and they'll fly a fucking jet into your buildings to reach their goals

2/28/2009 2:18:20 PM

^ do not forget they will blow up Grandma's house next

2/28/2009 2:55:58 PM

Quote :

"im glad that terrorists and insurgents know our game plan, not through taliban intelligence reports, but our president's weekly updates"

i dont care who does it, its still a bad idea

2/28/2009 6:07:08 PM

I am sure the Obama Administration is sending an official copy of the withdrawl plan sealed and mailed expressly to Al Qaeda via UPS 1st class.

2/28/2009 10:43:27 PM

Is this thread supposed to be about Iraq or health care?

3/3/2009 8:31:18 AM

^^ Come on. Don't be ridiculous. You know that shit got handed off to DHL once it made it overseas.

3/3/2009 9:40:17 AM

Quote :

"So you are saying we shouldn't care what happens to Iraq after we leave? If there is a resurgance of terror we shouldn't care just let it be. I agree we have to let the Iraqis run the country but if it gets back to the point of civil war then we can't afford a terrorist nation. Iraq isn't some country with terrorist cells trying to overthrow the government. We have a grave steak in Iraq and every American should want it to succeed."

There are more launching grounds for terrorism than Iraq in the world right now so I hope you're ready to go into every corner of the Middle East at a moment's notice like we used to do everytime a fruit stand got knocked over in Central America and the Caribbean.

And even if you destroyed some stupid "terror camp" in one country or glassed the whole damn place it's not like the terrorists are all a part of some monolithic terror organization even though that's what we've conveniently turned the term "Al-Quaeda" into.

[Edited on March 3, 2009 at 7:38 PM. Reason : .]

3/3/2009 7:36:06 PM

Quote :

"We should want everyone to suceed. But do we really have a grave interest in the country? You can argue we are morally responsible for the country since we broke it, but that is all it is. If Iraq goes to crap our only interest should be to prevent U.S. terrorism; who runs the country of Iraq is not terribly our concern."

It is important to have Iraq as an ally, one of a only a few allys in the middle east. Democracies are generally more stable and rational than dictatorships who harbor terrorists. Democracies are better for the people of that land also. More democracy and less dictatorship is a no-brainer. Also they have oil. $-)

3/4/2009 12:28:46 AM

AHA, this thread is funny. Did anybody read past the first sentence of this post?

Hunt, you should have put "What do you all think?" at the end of your post.

In response to your original argument, I disagree. I think it's inappropriate to compare such a miserable and unpopular war to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security because MMSS have done more good than the war in Iraq.

I mean, it's a cute analogy. We do spend a shit ton of money on all those things, and they do seem to just keep on growing. But Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security, in all their bloated glory, actually help some Americans. The war in Iraq doesn't help us so much. It's a money pit that even Tom Hanks wouldn't touch.

3/4/2009 4:44:54 AM