http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/4954946/

Nice job UNC, you stay classy. As someone put up in another forum, one group of UNC wins a national championship in a week, and another group starts a riot

At least for once, when NC is in the news, with a university, while we may have differing opinions from someone, we keep it civil.

4/15/2009 9:51:20 AM

doing their best to get back on homeland security's radar after feeling jilted yesterday with the other rabble

4/15/2009 9:52:27 AM

Quote :

""We are the children of immigrants, and this concerns us," said junior Lizette Lopez, 22, vice president of the Carolina Hispanic Association. "So we would at least like to hear what he has to say if you want to hear what we have to say.""

It'd be nice if this was a more universally help opinion, across all facets of the political spectrum.

Quote :

"Chancellor Holden Thorp issued a statement that he was sorry Tancredo wasn't able to speak. "We pride ourselves on being a place where all points of view can be expressed and heard, so I'm disappointed that didn't happen," Thorp said in a statement. "I think our Public Safety officers appropriately handled a difficult situation.”"

I'll be interested in seeing if anything happens to the students who "rioted". I suspect the university's actions would have been a lot more aggressive had this been a right wing protest.

4/15/2009 10:30:50 AM

one of the reasons it perplexes me to see hard-core redneck unc fans

4/15/2009 10:40:57 AM

That's a bunch of hypocritical douchebaggery. UNC students often say that we don't have any "class" and we are a bunch of biggoted rednecks. While I don't approve of the writings that appeared within the Free-Expression tunnel that got national attention, it is completely within our rights to write whatever we want in that tunnel. The comments of a few may be biggoted and stupid, but we have the class to respect those rights as Americans and as NCSU students. We don't do radical bullshit like this that infringes on the rights of others to publicly speak on important issues simply to advance some cause. What a bunch of hypocritical douchebags that don't understand the basic principles that they claim to uphold. In the end, UNC students are willing to sacrafice other peoples' constitutional rights to advance their own agenda, and that is clearly a case of having zero class and misguided principles overall. If you want to protest, then please do it peacefully, you bunch of idiots.

V It's a very fine line, and the event was indeed shutdown, so in essence, they did infringe on his right to speak in public by using violence during their protest. Obviously, protesting is a right, but resorting to violence is absolutely classless. Hence, everything I wrote. See Ghandi, MLK, etc.. for details on effective peaceful protesting with class.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 11:05 AM. Reason : -]

4/15/2009 10:47:31 AM

^ I don't think that counts as violating his constitutional rights, and i'm pretty sure the constitution also grants the right to protest too.

And, it was 30 students it seemed that were doing the protest. Hardly representative of UNC students, i'd guess.

Plus, Tancredo really is a scumbag.

4/15/2009 10:53:04 AM

Quote :

"Campus police used pepper spray on student protesters angry over immigration issues who disrupted a speech by former Republican presidential candidate Tom Tancredo at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."

DONT SPRAY ME BRO

4/15/2009 11:02:06 AM

i thought the libs supported free speech......i guess its only when it supports their agenda. fascists.

4/15/2009 11:03:30 AM

4/15/2009 11:12:15 AM

Quote :

"I'm disappointed that didn't happen," Thorp said in a statement."

What a lame-ass spineless response, typical of today's education bureacrats. What he should say is
"We pride ourselves on listening to all sides of an issue. And I will not let a small minority of disruptive imbeciles taint that fine tradition. On behalf of the university, I am apologizing to Mr. Tancredo, and if he is willing to come back and speak, I will promise him that I will provide the security needed to allow him to state his case."

Quote :

" I don't think that counts as violating his constitutional rights, and i'm pretty sure the constitution also grants the right to protest too."

Tancredo was an invited guest to the university. To invite him to speak and then chase him off is pretty damn rude.

Quote :

"And, it was 30 students it seemed that were doing the protest. Hardly representative of UNC students, i'd guess."

Well guess what? The press doesn't care if it was only 30. Thanks to them, the press will make UNC out as a bastion of rigid conformity to liberal group-think. Way to go, you 30.

Quote :

"Plus, Tancredo really is a scumbag."

This is scary justification.
If YOU think the person is bad and their case has no merit, then it is OK to do anything to them. This is the same rationalization that leads to Unabombers sending bombs, anti-abortionists blowing up abortion clinics, ALF terrorists blowing up labs, Bill Ayre's weathermen killing cops and Muslim terrorists crashing jets into buildings.

4/15/2009 11:14:11 AM

Or the founding of new democratic nations!

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 11:19 AM. Reason : BATTLE HYMN]

4/15/2009 11:18:40 AM

gg hippies

4/15/2009 11:46:38 AM

while i think tancredo's views are despicable, the protestors got out of hand. they should have protested outside, or held their own event. this sort of action did not help their cause.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 12:17 PM. Reason : and it didn't exactly seem like a riot to me.]

4/15/2009 12:11:38 PM

Quote :

"I will promise him that I will provide the security needed to allow him to state his case."

See, this is the other side of that fine line. The idea of "free speech zones" at the political conventions bothered me. It is a hard row to hoe.

4/15/2009 12:36:31 PM

Hardly unprecedented for this guy --

Quote :

"Karl Rove, Mr Bush's chief adviser, was so angry about his anti-immigration stance that he told him that he would never “darken the doorstep of the White House” again; and Tom DeLay, the former majority leader and a moderate by Mr Tancredo's standards, told him that “you cannot think of making a career in this place.”"

(http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6772314)

Anyway, I don't get the argument about constitutional rights posted here. How were his 'rights' violated exactly? The right to free speech is all about protection from the _government_'s interference with your own free expression. The government didn't send those protesters in; they came of their own accord.

Having said that, the protest was obviously a classic "civil disobedience" tactic that was very shrewdly calculated. The protesters probably calculated that UNC wouldn't crack down too hard on them, for fear of siding with Tancredo. They also knew that if they caused enough disruption -- which they did -- that they'd run Tancredo out on his high horse, never to return.

Good riddance, I say. You don't just invite someone very controversial without having the appropriate measures in place to ensure the event's security. Should UNC have devoted more time and staff to ensuring that Tom Tancredo, an active politician and recent presidential candidate, should be afforded a venue? No, obviously not, and frankly if Tancredo wants to make a campaign networking stop, maybe he can pay for his own private security next time. Democracy's a bitch like that.

4/15/2009 12:56:01 PM

Have we at NCSU, who have definitely had some controversial speakers before, ever had to cancel a speaker because of rioting? I mean we have had some "classy" individuals interrupt speakers before when they didn't agree with them (Donahue for example) but they never had to worry about the safety of the speaker before. Free speech and the right to protest is one thing, but when you get that out of hand, you are being a bunch of morons who make your side look like idiots. Protest all you want, but don't resort to physical violence, regardless of the speakers position. Preacher Gary was crazy, but nobody ever tried to kill him, that I know of.

4/15/2009 12:58:32 PM

Not really sure you want to compare schools based on things like this.

4/15/2009 1:02:51 PM

I am wondering what justification people cite to allow illegal immigrants to have in state tuition. How could you possibly charge out-of-state students additional tuition under such a scenario?

4/15/2009 1:23:04 PM

How about Obama going to Notre Dame to speak? I guarentee you that these protesting UNC students would be in a fucking uproar if the Catholic protesters got violent in South Bend. However, the very same UNC students are completely oblivious, or even blind, in regards to their own evident hypocrisy. It's despicable and hard to grasp just how two-faced people at UNC really are. You would assume that these students would have developed the presence of mind to understand when they are contradicting themselves.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 1:35 PM. Reason : -]

4/15/2009 1:32:52 PM

Quote :

"I mean we have had some "classy" individuals interrupt speakers before when they didn't agree with them (Donahue for example) but they never had to worry about the safety of the speaker before."

So what? NCSU kids are tepid. If it's not sports, people don't get excited about it.

Look, use some common sense. If a local 'interest group' invited an influential klan leader to read Mein Kampf in public, you probably wouldn't think people were 'classless' for being more than a bit angry, probably beyond the bounds of normal civility.

Is Tom Tancredo that incendiary? Probably to some people. For example, Karl Rove, who screamed at him, called him a traitor, and told him -- then a U.S. Congressman -- never to show his face around the White House again. I can imagine how, say, some hot-blooded college kids might be even less civil.

4/15/2009 1:38:19 PM

the kids should be expelled

4/15/2009 1:42:15 PM

I would say I am shocked to see people defending those students, but this is TWW.

4/15/2009 1:43:21 PM

Quote :

"You would assume that these students would have developed the presence of mind to understand when they are contradicting themselves."

i wouldn't

i've seen the same protesters one week run around half-naked in protest of sweat shops turn around and the next week talk about how near-nudity and nudity is exploitative

4/15/2009 1:44:46 PM

i'm just curious where the "violence" was here. i see reference to violence in this thread. unless you're talking about non-physical violence i don't see the violence. i guess the broken window could be construed as a threat? i'm really curious. was there violence committed by the protesters?

4/15/2009 1:46:51 PM

Quote :

"Have we at NCSU, who have definitely had some controversial speakers before, ever had to cancel a speaker because of rioting?"

Minor protests at "I Heart Female Orgasm".

4/15/2009 1:47:04 PM

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=6761629

here's video

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 1:49 PM. Reason : raw video]

4/15/2009 1:48:19 PM

^

That broken window is a damned shame, it'll probably cost $10,000 of federal stimulus money to replace. Thanks a bunch, kids.

4/15/2009 1:53:20 PM

Quote :

""There is no freedom of speech on hundreds of university campuses today for people who dare to dissent from the radical political agenda of the socialist left and the open borders agitators," Tancredo wrote. "

No matter how shitty of a person this man may be, he is condemning a greater evil. We may disapprove of what he says, not unlike the free expression tunnel, but we must defend his right to say it. If we do not defend it, the strength of our priniciples will diminish, as will our freedom, and that is indeed a far greater evil. In short, UNC is just as classless, if not more, than anyone else; and unfortunately, I doubt many of the UNC protesters would even understand why I say this.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM. Reason : -]

4/15/2009 1:57:28 PM

While I think protests are fine and healthy part of civil discourse, resorting to breaking windows was a very stupid move. Now no one will talk about how the protest was bigger than the anti-immigrant rally speech, instead it'll all be focused on how the protesters overreacted. Way to screw the pooch UNC.

4/15/2009 1:58:38 PM

^^

I am still confused as to how somebody breaking a window represents all of UNC. Like, if some woman gets raped in the park at night by a student, does everyone say "way to be a rapist, UNC!"

4/15/2009 2:11:03 PM

Quote :

"Good riddance, I say. You don't just invite someone very controversial without having the appropriate measures in place to ensure the event's security."

WOW, its news to me that being opposed to IN-STATE tuition for unauthorized immigrants makes someone controversial. What kind of retarded common sense makes that controversial?

UNC, embarassment of the state once again.

4/15/2009 2:15:06 PM

Do a few biggoted rednecks represent all of NCSU? No.
Do UNC students consistently refer to NCSU as not having any class? Yes.
Is this event slightly ironic because UNC showed a clear lack of class when protesting? Yes.
Has NCSU ever showed a lack of class by getting violent when protesting? No.
Is that why Stimwalt is saying what he is saying? Probably.
Does Stimwalt really believe that a few students from both NCSU and UNC represent each corresponding university as a whole? Of course not, but public perception and reality rarely see eye-to-eye.

VV I never said it didn't. Just because I don't include all of the variables does not mean they do not exist, instead my simple example is enough to establish a point. The point being, UNC is two-faced, clueless, and dead wrong.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 2:26 PM. Reason : -]

4/15/2009 2:18:48 PM

^^

That was the theme of his speech. It may not have crossed your mind that Tancredo has other, more obviously controversial, points of view on record. For example: banning all _legal immigation_ (excuse me, imposing a 'moratorium').

4/15/2009 2:19:21 PM

Quote :

" Does this event slightly ironic because UNC showed a clear lack of class when protesting? Yes"

So the fact that UNC students actually invited the guy to speak, and that UNC police officers fired pepper spray on the protesters, has no bearing on the supposed 'irony' here? I see.

4/15/2009 2:22:06 PM

Tancredo can get pretty extreme

but he's dead on with the in-state tuition being absolute bullshit

4/15/2009 2:23:39 PM

Here's an email I got from the Chancellor's Office, sent out to all students:

Quote :

"I want to express how disappointed I am in what happened last night when former Congressman Tom Tancredo wasn't able to speak when a protest got out of hand, and our Department of Public Safety had to take action. Congressman Tancredo felt threatened and left without making his remarks. Mr. Tancredo was scheduled to speak about immigration. We expect protests about controversial subjects at Carolina. That's part of our culture. But we also pride ourselves on being a place where all points of view can be expressed and heard. There's a way to protest that respects free speech and allows people with opposing views to be heard. Here that's often meant that groups protesting a speaker have displayed signs or banners, silently expressing their opinions while the speaker had his or her say. That didn't happen last night. On behalf of our University community, I called Mr. Tancredo today to apologize for how he was treated. In addition, our Department of Public Safety is investigating this incident. They will pursue criminal charges if any are warranted. Our Division of Student Affairs is also investigating student involvement in the protest. If that investigation determines sufficient evidence, participating students could face Honor Court proceedings. Carolina's tradition of free speech is a fundamental part of what has made this place special for more than 200 years. Let's recommit ourselves to that ideal. Sincerely, Holden Thorp "

4/15/2009 2:26:25 PM

^^^That may be Smoker4, but the article clearly states that is what he was there to talk about. Not one of his more "controversial stances".

4/15/2009 2:27:57 PM

^^ and wiser men prevail. I'm done.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM. Reason : -]

4/15/2009 2:29:52 PM

^^

It doesn't matter. The guy is an extremist xenophobe. People know who he is and what he stands for because, you might be surprised by this -- he actually just ran for President! Shocker!

Seriously, if a student group invited the local KKK leader to talk about income tax policy, he'd still be the local KKK leader. And yes, Tancredo is basically in the same league of incendiary slime-bag. He shouldn't reasonably expect to show up anywhere without needing protection from irrationally mad people, because he does his damned best to stoke the fires. Should people break windows or be violent in protest? No. But should he be interrupted with non-violent, civil disobedience, like the kids holding up the banner? Probably. He made his bed, he can lie in it for all I care.

Also: Holden Thorp, like a long line of UNC Chancellors, has no balls and should have called Tancredo on the carpet. He's not just some guy with "opposing views." George Will has opposing views. Tancredo is a full-on rank populist bigot out for political gain.

4/15/2009 2:41:19 PM

So if this was somebody like Al Gore, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore or Louis Farrakhan that was to speak at NCSU and protestors drove them away, would you view it the same way Smoker?

4/15/2009 3:00:50 PM

Quote :

"The right to free speech is all about protection from the _government_'s interference with your own free expression."

Just a reminder: the purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the individual from Government, true. But the purpose of Government is to secure and protect the rights of individuals.

4/15/2009 3:19:57 PM

Nighthawk:

I'm not sure where you're going with this question. You named a few people who are notable mostly for their partisanship. My point is that Tancredo is not a partisan, in fact he's reviled on both sides of the aisle (hence my reference to the screaming match with Karl Rove) for his radical extremism. If I spent the day thinking about it, I could probably come up with a list of similar individuals. Farrakhan is probably one of them. Here's a better example: Ahmadinejad, who should never have been invited to speak at Columbia.

I don't for a second believe that universities have some overarching social responsibility to give bully pulpits to extremist radicals who regularly oppose the very American values that a University exists to instill in its students. Treating all viewpoints as equal sounds nice on paper, but frankly, it's a bunch of nonsense. People like Tancredo espouse points of view that run directly contrary to the mission of any University. They should be studied from afar, not up close.

BTW if anyone here bothers to, you know, read, you might find the same basic argument is made in Wiliam F Buckley's first book, God and Man at Yale. It's not exactly a pro-leftist point I am making here.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 3:22 PM. Reason : foo]

4/15/2009 3:20:29 PM

Quote :

"But the purpose of Government is to secure and protect the rights of individuals."

The police fired pepper spray at the belligerents. The government did its job. End of story.

4/15/2009 3:24:45 PM

Here's another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaTkGgE-hXA

What a fucking embarrassment.

[Edited on April 15, 2009 at 4:38 PM. Reason : ]

4/15/2009 4:34:52 PM

Corporations, private citizens, or other private entities can't infringe on your rights.

ex. If a mod deletes your posts on TWW its not an infringement of your 1st ammendment rights
If the fed comes in and forces tww to delete your posts, it is an infringement.

Since UNC is a public university is a grey area. They accept public funds and their theoretical goal is to create a place where all viewpoints can be discussed in order to create a well balanced education. However, its just not practical to offer UNC(or any other public campus) as a place for every individual to come and speak. We can, however, watch to make sure that for the most part no specific viewpoint is treated better/worse than another.

In this case the issue is with the students of UNC, not the administration. I think the response from the administraction is fine as long as they do the same thing if it occured with any other speaker.

If the students in question really wanted to bring their point home they'd bring out some facts and either own the speaker on a Q/A session or talk to the people going to the thing before or after. Schedule your own talk immediately following to refute his points. While the guy may be a total dick, disrupting the talk makes the students look like immature kids.

4/15/2009 4:38:11 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ7vcgQjkDQ&feature=related

4/15/2009 5:30:05 PM

Quote :

"No dialogue with hate"

That pretty much sums it up.


Toss in whatever pejorative phrase you desire at the end and you have the acme of close-mindedness.

4/15/2009 5:46:29 PM

Quote :

"Corporations, private citizens, or other private entities can't infringe on your rights. "

I can understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think this captures it. If you're saying this is not something the University should be held responsible for, sure.

The idea that your rights can't be infringed upon by private entities though - if this was the case I wonder why we have any laws at all?

4/15/2009 6:23:51 PM

I wonder how things would have gone down at UNC if they had invited the leader of Iran or North Korea to speak. Or perhaps just Bill Ayers.

I wonder how severe the protesting would have been. I'm guessing there wouldn't have been much.

4/15/2009 9:15:17 PM

Quote :

"Corporations, private citizens, or other private entities can't infringe on your rights. ""

Sure they can. If a corporation pollutes your drinking water, that is an infringement on your right to life. If someone defrauds you, that is an infrigement on your property rights.

The 1st Amendment is simply an acknowledgement that the gov't will not infringe your right of speech, especially speech that protests the gov't.

Quote :

"I think the response from the administraction is fine as long as they do the same thing if it occured with any other speaker. "

No. Tancredo was invited to speak by a campus group. He was chased off by another group. That is wrong anyway you look at it. These "tolerant" thugs who chased him off were quite probably egged on by their liberal professors.

The campus chancellor should expel the students who did this damage. He should re-assert the need for free and open debate...especially on controversal subjects.

4/15/2009 9:31:12 PM