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CaelNCSU
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Anyone go to Oshkosh? The Aeroshell team is bad ass. My personal favorite old plane I've seen is the Howard--which are on our field in high numbers, but never noticed.



Seems like every RV in existence is here, they are celebrating the 10,000th flying. Where you planning on flying the RV?

7/27/2018 9:50:01 AM

dtownral
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i've been watching the arrivals on youtube all week

i just learned a colleague is working on a kitfox, about 90% complete (so 90% remaining)

7/27/2018 10:48:49 AM

CaelNCSU
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Arriving was fucking crazy. We got cut off a dozen times and didn't even attempt to join--some times we'd be over the tracks and 3 planes would converge from both sides and under. Took about 2 dozen passes over two flights to try to get cleared to land. Only 3 resulted in actual attempts the last of which we made it. According to our friend who's been 20 years this is the worst year for arrivals by far.

https://youtu.be/afWsn-A793A

7/27/2018 12:03:34 PM

dtownral
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what's with the 3-planes at the end of that? i thought you had to approach single file, not even any s-turns just straight in a line all the way from Ripon

7/27/2018 12:18:04 PM

CaelNCSU
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They'd call out people doing S Turns and sometime send them back to Ripon. It was supposed to be single file with a mile separation but by the time you got to Ripon is was usually in a cluster of planes. At Fisk they were telling the whole group turn west around the lake and back to Ripon. We made it to Fisk three times and gave up many other times. There were dozens and dozens of planes.

7/27/2018 12:23:46 PM

CaelNCSU
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7/27/2018 12:25:33 PM

theDuke866
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I went in 2012 and 2013, in a Sabreliner. Entered the pattern #2 behind [at that time] the only flying B-29 (“Fifi”).

It wasn’t too bad...I heard this year was a shitshow, though. One of my Hornet pilot former roommates is up there now, camping with his Mooney.



No RV for me, yet. I expect I’ll fly it all over the place (plus aerobatics locally) if I get one.

Flew the Champ today until sunset...had a solo Blue Angel cross in front of me 1000’ above, maybe a half mile in front of me. Close enough I could easily make out his yellow stripes.

Taking the Legend Cub to another airport tomorrow for another glider lesson in the Grob.

[Edited on July 28, 2018 at 1:33 AM. Reason : ]

7/28/2018 1:31:21 AM

wizzkidd
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CNXed my UAS flight today because of weather... because UASs need ceiling and visibility minimums to go flying. <MIND BLOWN>

7/28/2018 1:52:42 AM

theDuke866
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Dafuq? Why?

_____

Flew the Legend Cub to 1AL4 today. Landed on their ~1500 secondary runway, flew 3x in the Grob 103 glider, flew back home—half the time down in a river, winding down it below treetop level, popping up to 500’ to clear boats and the occasional house, or turn that was too sharp or right to safely make it through. Did a crosswind wheel landing, rolled it out on one wheel (upwind wheel due to xw) until slow, then held the tail up with forward stick and a little power a taxied to the ramp, tail-up.

7/29/2018 12:04:39 AM

theDuke866
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7/29/2018 8:57:20 PM

theDuke866
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Motherfucker...the FBO decided to sell that $130/hour Arrow II. There's another local place with Arrows, but they're $175/hour.

Anyone ever look into Commemorative Air Force (CAF)? I want to look into sponsoring the Stearman they just got over in New Orleans. I think the hours/experience requirements to fly it are pretty reasonable, the sponsorship fee as a pilot is only $1500. I just wonder about what sort of ongoing expenses there are to fly it, and what sort of restrictions (aerobatics? where can you go? etc.)

9/3/2018 11:56:30 PM

theDuke866
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CaelNCSU, i looked through your spreadsheet again. man, either i am significantly underestimating the costs of aircraft ownership/operation, or your spreadsheet errs on the way high side, or there is a considerable disparity between our locations.

$30k for overhauls on a 320 or a 360?

Fixed costs seem awfully high, too. I think hangars are relatively cheap here, but that still wouldn't account for all.

Like, if I did an RV-4, I'm figuring on $4500-6500/year in fixed costs (assuming I hangar it...outside tie-down would be way less)...and $50-55/hour (fuel, oil, engine fund).

9/4/2018 12:11:44 AM

theDuke866
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hmmm...talked with the unit leader, and i'm relatively serious about buying a share in that Stearman. Basically fly for the cost of gas...I just have to get there and back (160 miles).

Might need to consider a cheaper, more A-B sort of airplane to buy into...then I can do whatever flying I want, to include doing to get my tailwheel/aerobatics/etc fix in the Stearman.

9/4/2018 8:07:41 PM

dtownral
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Bonanza or bust

9/4/2018 8:43:11 PM

theDuke866
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yeah, that share has been sold.

On one hand, after flying one, I get it. I always thought they were overrated--the fit/finish/quality, etc is nice, but not nice enough for the price premium. However, it really is a significant cut above in how well it flies/feels.

On the other hand, a 4-seat Bo would almost always be either too much or not enough. Usually, a 2-seat airplane would be all I'd need (and not one with the fuel burn of an IO-520)...and if not, I'd need a 5-6 seater for most other situations. I concluded that for my needs, at the higher rates the partnership was charging itself, it didn't make sense--which was why my co-worker was selling.

9/5/2018 9:30:18 PM

CaelNCSU
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Coincidentally, I totalled what we spent this year. I think we had the top end of bad luck. Hopefully we don't have any maintenance issues again until 2060. We've had to overhaul almost everything in the panel, brake system, both VORs, some hard to track down issues, broken seat. To top it off we had a stuck oil ring and bought new cylinders and had a Top Overhaul. Upside we basically have a fresh plane

Total maintenance first year: $45K. Have since talked to people that have hit $60k in the first year, but also people who've not had any major costs in the first decade.

Flew a Bonanza from Santa Monica to Oshkosh. Room was nice, feels a bit like a truck, but way better than a 182.



[Edited on September 6, 2018 at 1:48 AM. Reason : A]

9/6/2018 1:42:35 AM

theDuke866
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Jeeeeeesus.

Talked with one friend last night about splitting something, maybe an M20E.

Ran into a coworker today who is in the process of purchasing a Turbo Lance with the squadron CO. Gonna see if I can buy a stake in that, or if my other friend and I can each buy into it. Maybe even minority stakes—like a token share for a couple thousand bucks, plus a monthly fee, plus operating costs. We’ll see if we can work something out.

9/6/2018 3:44:47 PM

CaelNCSU
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At least it still flies... Flew to Kernville today. M20E would be bad ass. They go for half a J and occasionally they are just as well equipped.







[Edited on September 6, 2018 at 7:48 PM. Reason : a]

9/6/2018 7:47:01 PM

wizzkidd
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Quote :
"Dafuq? Why?[UAS WX mins from a month ago] "


It has to do with the requirement for see an avoid in the National Airspace System. Apparently every other big UAS takes off in Special Use airspace, to get around that requirement. Triton was late to the game getting out SSI (Sort of a TFR) out of Pt. Mugu. SO... we have to have a visual observer, that can see the airplane, meaning we have weather mins!

Your tax dollars at work!

9/6/2018 8:17:59 PM

theDuke866
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I'm still lost.

If you're flying it IFR, what difference does it make?

For that matter, what about stuff like aircraft that land via Cat-III ILS, etc? They're not seeing shit, and nobody is seeing them, and they're not limited to SUAS.

9/6/2018 9:46:19 PM

wizzkidd
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I had the same argument. Here's the deal. Even if you're IFR, you have a responsibility to see and avoid other traffic who may or may not be talking to anyone. For instance, if we take off with a marine layer out of Pt. Mugu (happens a lot) and a C172 enters the Class D airspace, we have the same responsibility to see and avoid him as he does us, even though we're IFR, and he's VFR. If he's maintaining his cloud clearances and has a working 2 way radio, he's 100% legal.
Yes, what should happen is ATC should keep me clear of that traffic, but the fact that Triton can't maintain its own traffic avoidance means the FAA takes on 100% of that responsibility... which they won't. It's spelled out in a few FAA and DOD documents (from the 90's )
In SUA or Class A, (for some reason) the rules change, and VFR Traffic should know to remain clear b/c it's either illegal to be there, or they've been warned that something exciting is going on.
The real difference has to do with who's fault it is if we hit someone. In SUA it's the guy who flew into the airspace w/o knowing what was happening (even though it's technically legal). In Class B-G airspace, it's 33/33/33 on whether the fault lies with ATC, The UA, or other traffic, and the FAA isn't comfortable accepting our 33% of the risk.
The reality is exactly what you said, except that an aircraft landing via CAT-III ILS still has the final responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. But if you're IMC, any VFR Traffic shouldn't be there b/c cloud clearances. Triton is always IMC, regardless of weather conditions.

9/7/2018 4:29:59 PM

theDuke866
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That still makes no sense. Yes, you still have a responsibility to see & avoid while IFR when meteorilogical conditions permit, but by that logic, you shouldn't be able to fly that thing in good weather, not bad weather!

Never mind that, in weather below whatever your mins are, there shouldn't be any VFR traffic...which raises the subject of Class-A like you mentioned--rules change in Class-A, i assume, because you can't be VFR there. everyone is IFR. If weather is <1000'/3sm, there also should be no VFR traffic.


At any rate, I flew the Aeronca Champ yesterday evening, T-45 simulator this morning for work, a Mooney M20C this afternoon, and 2 flights in a Grob 103 glider this afternoon. Plan to fly the glider again tomorrow afternoon...not sure if i'm gonna ride my Triumph over there, or fly either the Legend Cub or the Champ to the glider field (thinking about flying over, so I can do some simulated tows...and get checked out in the club's Pawnee 260 tow plane).

9/9/2018 3:53:57 AM

wizzkidd
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Quote :
"If weather is <1000'/3sm, there also should be no VFR traffic."


Not true. People go VFR on top all the time; especially in Southern CA, where the marine layer allows some folks to pick through a layer they KNOW will burn off by 10 am.
I've made all of the arguments you're making. It's like the stages of grief. Bottom line, there's a DOD instruction that spells it out, and none of us are calling Secretary Mattis for a waiver.

Update, our SSI got approved by the FAA, so this whole conversation is moot. Our WX mins are now 200 and 1/2 per our squadron instruction, and that's just so our safety car can verify the runway is clear while the UA is on approach. That will probably go down to 0/0 after we've got more than 2 airplanes, and have some battle rhythm.

9/9/2018 8:00:06 AM

CaelNCSU
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Yeah, I took off in 600 ft yesterday on the edge of minimums and punched the layer/cancelled. Pretty common here.

Do you work at Mugu? You know all the controllers? That's a super busy area. Do a lot of flying out if SZP. You ever out there?

Also, is that Mooney that landed there a month or so back still there?

[Edited on September 9, 2018 at 11:38 AM. Reason : A]

9/9/2018 11:34:13 AM

theDuke866
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^^ Well OK, but then that still has nothing to do with seeing and avoiding, any more than if it was CAVU...so I still see no reason for the weather minimum.
____________________________________________

First solo in gliders today. Took a tow up to 2300' (shorted myself 200' due to field elevation--didn't realize that they meant AGL on the price list ), released the rope, and flew for a 1.2. I could have stayed out much longer, but I figured the guys back on the ground might need to go home for the day (and the battery died, so I lost my radio, txpdr, and variometer for finding lift...so I couldn't radio base to see what their schedules were).

Pretty amazing that you can start at 2-3k', and then climb in rising air and stay aloft potentially for hours, all with no propulsion.

_____________________________________________

2 guys in the glider club co-own that sweet M20C that I flew yesterday...they asked if I'd be interested in buying in as a 3rd partner. My share would be $20k buy-in, $150/month fixed, $100/hour wet. Their shell LLC that owns the airplane has $8k in cash, so that tells me their $100 wet rate should cover all their maintenance, etc. The Mooney has an absolutely superb panel, except no autopilot.

One of them is a retired Navy A-6 pilot and UPS captain; the other is a semi-retired venture capital guy who sits as COB of a local underwater pipeline company. They also co-own a Pitts S-2C and a glider.

On the other hand, I could join the local Navy Flying Club, pay $45/month, and fly their Arrow for $125 wet. It's not as nice as that Mooney, but it does have a Garmin 430 with WAAS.

(too bad the other local airport sold their Arrow that they rented me for $130 wet with mil discount, and no fixed costs)

9/9/2018 11:06:30 PM

wizzkidd
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I don't work out of Mugu, but we fly out of there. Ask about Triton and you'll get lots of less than pleasant responses. We're special snowflakes out there, and haven't made a lot of friends.

9/10/2018 5:53:15 PM

theDuke866
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man i hadn't even heard of Triton. I thought it was a normal Global Hawk based on your previous picture.

9/10/2018 8:47:31 PM

Mr. Joshua
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I need to get current dammit.

9/10/2018 10:50:51 PM

Nighthawk
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^^^Did you forget to drop the landing gear this afternoon?

9/13/2018 11:26:37 PM

wizzkidd
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I was wondering how long it would take for it to hit the media and then to hit TWW.

per standard navy stuff, I can't comment.

9/14/2018 5:48:31 AM

Nighthawk
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Lol. I follow Tyler Rogoway who is usually pretty up on military stuff, and he posted a story about it yesterday evening. For everybody else who has no clue:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/23585/navy-mq-4c-triton-drone-made-emergency-belly-landing-at-naval-base-ventura-county

Seriously though, sorry man. Hope that doesn't put ya'll too far behind.

9/14/2018 8:15:40 AM

dustm
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Holy shit, 131' wingspan and 8500lb of thrust? I did not realize those were so large.

9/14/2018 11:52:36 AM

theDuke866
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yeah, they're big.

that's not all that much thrust, though...and the wingspan is huge, because they're really high aspect.

but yeah...they're big.

9/14/2018 10:41:38 PM

dtownral
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$110M ? Damn

9/15/2018 4:00:27 PM

Nighthawk
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Went to Beaufort with my buddy today to help deliver supplies with Operation AirDrop. Really cool group to work with.

9/22/2018 8:05:59 PM

sumfoo1
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Can one reasonably purchase a plane that's fun, reliable (safe),and under a quarter mil ?

9/24/2018 8:09:57 PM

dtownral
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You can get a plane for like $30k

9/24/2018 11:17:12 PM

CaelNCSU
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I paid $100K, the first year maintenance was about $40K, so really I paid $140K. If you buy a plane, reserve 50% in case you have terrible luck like I did. Ie, if your budget is $45K you can afford a $30K plane.

The model I got (Mooney M20J) goes for $80K - $140K. Top end is early 90s with really good avionics, paint, and interior. Lower end gets old panel, may or may not need engine work, may or may not need interior and paint.

Seems like you can get a Cessna 182, faster than a basic Cessna 172 but more expensive to operate, for $50K (1960s era) to $100K (1980s with maybe a Garmin 430).

Operating costs suck pretty much across the board. Mooney's have the best gas burn: 10 gallons per hour, but still fast as fuck for a small plane, insurance is $1600 a year after you get your instrument rating. Other planes like a Bonanza, which could haul a Mooney, burn like 15 gallons per hour. Cessna 182 burn about that and are much slower than either of those. Depends on your mission. Flying to New York to get dinner with the wife and small children? Mooney. Going to Atlanta with your boys to get crunk? C182. Have a lot of shit to haul like golf clubs? Bonanaza.

If you're ballin get a Cirrus or Cessna 421 to fly the family with a Pitts and Extra for the weekends.

Those are all the price points I was into. Now that I have flown a Mooney for a year, they are way more practical for the 600 mile trips that would take 4 - 5 hours in a 172 or Cherokee. Glad I bought it despite bleeding money.



[Edited on September 25, 2018 at 12:37 AM. Reason : a]

[Edited on September 25, 2018 at 12:38 AM. Reason : a]

9/25/2018 12:28:52 AM

theDuke866
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^^^

What do you want to do? How many seats? What interests you about buying an airplane?


In short, the prohibitive part isn’t buying them so much as owning them. Figure 4-9k/year or so, just for it to sit still, airworthy and insured. Then add maybe $40-175/hour in operating costs.

9/25/2018 1:24:41 AM

sumfoo1
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Full disclosure.

Honestly i don't know what it would take to get my license current but i got my pilots license around 19 thinking i wanted to do it professionally. Sat in a 737 sim with a pro flew some standard flights for a few hours, was bored out of my mind. Thought a big plane would be fun, wasn't... at least not flying in a professional manner. the 172/152s i got my license in felt like you were standing still at altitude and i think i actually flew backwords in a Da 20 katana once.

I don't really want it to go anywhere but the opportunity would be cool i'd like it to feel powerful...
My thoughts are... track car... but for the sky. My dad was manager of maintenance of continental airlines and i know about 4 guys with their a&p licenses that hang out and work on their own stuff now but again those are the 172/152s i learned how to fly on.

Just wondering if there is anything not boring a civilian can legitimately own and fly.

Are experimental planes really dangerous or?? about 8 years ago i fell in love with the nemesis nxt airframe but then i don't really know if i want to fly a kit around... is there something thats done the full FAA thing with similar performance?

9/25/2018 8:07:36 AM

theDuke866
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Ok...so you want a toy. 1 seat OK, or does it need 2?

This is easy. There are inexpensive options that are very not-boring. They’re mostly experimental, though. Certified options are considerably pricier and/or less exciting. The good news is that there are perfectly fine experimental options. There is some silly, shifty homebuilt stuff out there, but that’s the exception, in my view.

9/25/2018 9:24:02 AM

CaelNCSU
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Sounds like you need a Pitts or Super Decathlon.

I was super partial to RV7 or 6's. I still really like them, though they are sketchy occasionally as theDuke866 mentions. Occasionally you see them with horrid workmanship that don't look safe.

Occasionally you see an RV6 without good avionics for $40K.

Example of decent equipped 6:
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/25462127/1993-vans-rv-6

9/25/2018 9:30:19 AM

dtownral
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are you trying to do aerobatics or just scenic flying? my dream is something high wing i can open the doors on for low scenic flying

9/25/2018 11:47:14 AM

sumfoo1
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honestly didn't really think about scenic flying... could be awesome.

9/26/2018 8:21:54 AM

theDuke866
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^^^ I've never seen a sketchy -7 (or -8). So much is factory pre-fabbed on the -7.

There are a few crappy -4s and -6s out there, but they're the exception. I've seen a helluva lot more rats-nest factory-built Cessnas and Pipers than I have poorly constructed experimentals, particularly RVs.

sumfoo1, you can find a fucked-up experimental, they're out there...and there are others that might be well-constructed, but are wacky or unproven designs. On the other hand, certified aircraft that you can afford are mostly 40-70 years old now. Some are pristine, most are fine, a few are legally airworthy, but I wouldn't get in them.

Bottom line, being an experimental/homebuilt would not personally put me off at all, in and of itself. There are plenty of them that are nicer than any comparable airplane that came out of a factory, not to mention cheaper. They're cheaper to own, too--you have freedom to use all sorts of great parts/equipment that just aren't certified AND are cheaper.

If you want something certified and "interesting" (aerobatic, etc), your choices start to get very limited, very quickly, and comparatively expensive. In the quasi-affordable realm, there's the Pitts, Citabria, Decathlon/Super Decathlon, and CAP-10. A 2-seat, certified Pitts is expensive, I'm guessing still into the 6-figures even at the low end (and a white-knuckle ride on landing, by all accounts). Citabria is not really an aerobatic airplane--it's a nice all-around sport-plane, rated to somewhere in-between utility and aerobatic g-loading, that can be muscled through a passable loops/roll/spin/hammerhead. Decathlon can prob be had for $50-55k (somewhat more for a Super D), but other than the slower Decathlon having enough drag to easily stay in a competition aerobatic box, if that's your thing, you could find a nicer RV-4 that would whip its ass top to bottom, for less money. I've flown a CAP-10 and it's sweet, but they are pretty rare (I think about 20 in America), and an RV-4 or 6 isn't far behind on aerobatics, and will probably beat it at just about everything else, for the same or less money.

On the low end, if you only needed a single seat and just wanted to play around (not travel places), you could get an EAA Bipe/Smith Miniplane/Baby Great Lakes/etc for prob $7500-20,000. If you were willing to use a VW or some oddball engine, there's the Sonex, Sonerai, etc for upper teens to mid-20s.

The sweet spot, in my opinion is a $40-55k RV-4.


[Edited on September 26, 2018 at 11:29 PM. Reason : there may be another certified option i'm forgetting, but there aren't many]

[Edited on September 26, 2018 at 11:30 PM. Reason : ^^ a Cub with the clamshell doors open is the shit.]

9/26/2018 11:23:54 PM

dtownral
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yeah i've been in a slow as shit cub with the door open, that's what sparked it. my dream would be something similar but side by side with a little bit of storage space space in the back and maybe a hair faster (although this is really based on the idea of retiring somewhere near public land so i could fly out and land somewhere remote and airplane camp)

9/27/2018 9:31:05 AM

theDuke866
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Got an opportunity to buy into an S35 Bonanza. IO-550 (300 hp) engine upgrade, ~850 SNEW...Garmin 430, full autopilot, Garmin 496 backup.

$14k buy-in, $175/month for hangar and outstanding loan balance. Divide everything else 4-ways (my share of insurance would be $400, annual and IFR cert would be a grand or two...probably another few hundred bucks per year for incidentals.) It's hangared about 10 minutes from my house.

My benchmark is the Navy Flying Club's Arrow, for $45/month and $125/hour. I figure if I fly more than ~65 hours per year, the Bo would be cheaper, not to mention nicer, faster, closer, and mine.

I want an RV badly, but I wonder if maybe the answer is the get the Bonanza, sponsor the Stearman over at New Orleans (1.0 flight in the Bo), and maybe occasionally rent the local Super D (dual) for $130/hour (and hopefully eventually break him down to add me to his insurance and let me fly it solo).

9/30/2018 9:50:16 PM

theDuke866
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10/2/2018 10:52:41 PM

CaelNCSU
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Did you get it?

10/5/2018 10:35:02 PM

theDuke866
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Not yet. I’m seriously thinking about it, though.

10/6/2018 10:29:04 AM

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