Quote :

"Low-income Latino immigrants in the South are routinely the targets of wage theft, racial profiling and other abuses driven by an anti-immigrant climate that harms all Latinos regardless of their immigration status, according to a report released today by the Southern Poverty Law Center."

http://www.splcenter.org/news/item.jsp?aid=375

Reading this report left me angry and depressed. I didn't realize things were quite so bad. What the fuck, folks? As I'm out of the state now, can any of y'all tell me about attempts to address these problems?

5/27/2009 8:18:08 PM

attempt to address the problems?
HA, surely you jest!

Attempts from the Right are confined to "fuck 'em, or send 'em home", and attempts from the Left are "umm, we'd rather not get into these issues"

5/27/2009 8:20:14 PM

I know nothing of these problems, hadn't seen or heard anything about them up until now, and know of nobody or any companies/entities which are responsible for/victims of such a thing.

So I guess I'm no help at all. That's fucked up though if it's true. I'd believe it, though.

5/27/2009 8:20:33 PM

Quote :

"This report documents the human toll of failed policies that relegate millions of people to an underground economy, where they are beyond the protection of the law,"

Really? Really? I wasn't aware that trying to enforce OUR LAWS should make us cry for people who chose to BREAK THOSE LAWS. Hey, guess what, you broke the law coming in here... Don't cry when you get assraped for it by people who want to take advantage of you. Maybe that's part of the reason those laws were there in the first place?

Quote :

"The assumption is that every Latino possibly is undocumented"

So maybe, just maybe, if there was an outcry of the legal Latinos against illegal immigration, maybe we would take the legal ones more seriously. instead, we see passionate cries to "forgive those people who broke our laws," and often we see outright aiding and abetting of the criminals, even so far as encouraging more of the crime! Sorry, I'm not going to cry a river for those who enable and encourage the trampling of our sovereignty.

Quote :

"The report concludes that comprehensive immigration reform — including a workable path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants — is the only realistic, fair and humane solution."

Yes, because amnesty really worked so well the last time. Oh wait, it massively increased the numbers of people pouring over our borders... Hmmm...

Quote :

"By allowing this cycle of abuse and discrimination to continue, we're creating an underclass of people who are invisible to justice and undermining our country's fundamental ideals."

What, like the ideal of following the law. or the ideal of knocking and asking permission to enter?

5/27/2009 8:29:16 PM

I work for a construction company here in Raleigh that employs roughly 50 Hispanic males.

Being in a project management position, I can assure you that this "wage theft" and "unsafe work practices" are not true for ALL companies, but I am sure it is happening somewhere, sometime.

We cannot, legally, check the immigration status of a prospective employee thoroughly enough before we hire them to determine if they are legal or not. Once we do hire them, we don't want to know.

Employees at the company I work for are paid based on skill and longevity being the two major factors. An English speaking employee makes more than a non-English speaking employee, regardless of the color of their skin. An employee that knows how to do their job better makes more money. I have found that there is a direct correlation to the language barrier and the learning curve to do the job.

As far as safety goes, it is the number one priority. As a competent person in my field, I would be held personally responsible by OSHA in addition to the fines and penalties to my company if someone was seriously injured or became ill if I could have prevented it, no matter the color of their skin.

I can speak fairly well for my industry in the fact that this article does not ring true, but like I said before, it is probably happening somewhere.

As far as my view on how to handle the illegals in the country? Well, the benefit to being illegal is tax evasion. I don't have a problem with making it easier to become a US citizen, but if the tax system was changed so that it would make no difference if you were legal or illegal, it would be a non-issue in my opinion, because illegal immigrants would be paying their share of the tax burden.

5/27/2009 8:33:38 PM

Quote :

"I can speak fairly well for my industry in the fact that this article does not ring true, but like I said before, it is probably happening somewhere."

Note that the Latinos interviewed for this report came from Charlotte, not the Raleigh area. Regional differences could be at play.

5/27/2009 8:41:44 PM

I'm surprised that GoldenViper, of all people, "didn't realize things were quite so bad." They are and have been for some time. People who are forced to live outside of mainstream society are ripe targets for all sorts of abuse. When you think that any complaint will result in deportation, you don't complain, because even an abused life here is generally better than the (probably also abused) life back home.

In answer to your question, GV, there are effectively no efforts to improve the situation. Most of the rural counties are staunchly anti-immigrant (even when most of their workforce/employees are immigrants), and in the more cosmopolitan population centers opinion is split. The various advocacy groups seem largely impotent and terribly managed. I have some personal experience with that aspect.

Quote :

"Hey, guess what, you broke the law coming in here... Don't cry when you get assraped for it by people who want to take advantage of you."

This is some interesting legal theory here: "If you break the law, you no longer have the protection of it." I asked my final-year law student roommate about this aspect of the American legal system. He told me I was retarded and closed the door in my face. Perhaps he hasn't had that class yet.

At any rate, I look forward to the opportunity to hang people who double-park. Those assholes have caused me way more problems than illegals have. No undocumented worker ever made me late to class.

Quote :

"Maybe that's part of the reason those laws were there in the first place?"

It's not and you god damn well know it isn't.

Quote :

"Sorry, I'm not going to cry a river for those who enable and encourage the trampling of our sovereignty."

Nobody's asking for you to cry. We're asking for you to support enforcement of the law. You seem more than willing to do it when it comes to keeping immigrants out -- why are you suddenly willing to toss it out the window when it comes to wage theft, racial profiling, and other violations of human rights?

Quote :

"Oh wait, it massively increased the numbers of people pouring over our borders"

Correlation, it is well-documented, is perfectly interchangeable with causation. One could say the same thing about the words "aaronburro" and "fucking moron," but I won't debase myself to such a level here.

Quote :

"Being in a project management position, I can assure you that this "wage theft" and "unsafe work practices" are not true for ALL companies, but I am sure it is happening somewhere, sometime."

Surely it doesn't apply to all companies. Some are under more scrutiny than others; some simply don't have the resources to effectively exploit people; some are probably even run by people who aren't raging assholes.

But it does happen, and commonly, especially in agriculture -- you know, that miserable way of life that humankind has been striving for its entire existence to avoid, and which immigrants are willing to do with a tenacious work-ethic while everyone else moves to the city to abandon jobs that involve working preposterous hours under a blistering sun for chump change.

Quote :

"As far as my view on how to handle the illegals in the country? Well, the benefit to being illegal is tax evasion."

A large percentage of illegal immigrants would pay no income tax even if they had legal status; they simply don't make enough money. However, legals and illegals alike pay sales and property taxes (though, in the latter case, sometimes indirectly). And many of the illegals who would have to pay income tax do so, because they work for companies that are too scrupulous or incompetent to take advantage of illegal workers by paying them under the table.

5/27/2009 11:39:15 PM

Quote :

"This is some interesting legal theory here: "If you break the law, you no longer have the protection of it." I asked my final-year law student roommate about this aspect of the American legal system. He told me I was retarded and closed the door in my face. Perhaps he hasn't had that class yet. At any rate, I look forward to the opportunity to hang people who double-park. Those assholes have caused me way more problems than illegals have. No undocumented worker ever made me late to class."

No one is saying "let's butt-fuck everyone who breaks any law." That's a strawman. Rather, I am saying that the situation these people are in exists precisely because they broke the law or aided people who did. I don't cry when the murderer is put into jail. Likewise, I'm not gonna cry for the illegal alien who is being screwed over by an employer.

Quote :

"It's not and you god damn well know it isn't."

It certainly is one part of it. Of course, it also isn't "we hate brown people RAWR" like you want to claim. At the very least, you have to admit that, were these people to FOLLOW THE LAW, they would be less likely to be fucked over.

Quote :

"why are you suddenly willing to toss it out the window when it comes to wage theft, racial profiling, and other violations of human rights?"

Because those things are a direct result of breaking the law in the first place.

Quote :

"Correlation, it is well-documented, is perfectly interchangeable with causation. One could say the same thing about the words "aaronburro" and "fucking moron," but I won't debase myself to such a level here."

Correlation might not equal causation, but it seems to follow that if you make people think doing something illegal won't be punished, then more people will do it. Kinda makes sense.

5/27/2009 11:45:13 PM

Quote :

"Rather, I am saying that the situation these people are in exists precisely because they broke the law or aided people who did."

Except there are people in this study who neither broke the law nor aided anybody else -- US citizens and legal residents. I hope you're not going so far as to say every legal US citizen or resident who immigrated to this country aids and abets illegals.

Quote :

"I don't cry when the murderer is put into jail. Likewise, I'm not gonna cry for the illegal alien who is being screwed over by an employer."

How in the name of all that is good and sacred and not fucking stupid does this make ANY GODDAMN SENSE AT ALL? One of these situations involves an elected government punishing people for violating the law. The other involves private citizens punishing people for violating the law -- and also for profit!

Trial by jury? Pfft. They're illegal and you know it. Pay their ass a third of minimum wage and kick them out if anyone looks at you twice. Sounds constitutional to me!

Quote :

"It certainly is one part of it. Of course, it also isn't "we hate brown people RAWR" like you want to claim."

What evidence do you have that it's "one part of it?" What kind of advanced degree in bullshit does that take? You're seriously claiming to me that part of the reason we make certain kinds of immigration illegal is that illegal immigrants will get paid less than minimum wage?

Because, see, here's the thing. It's much, much harder to screw over legal residents/citizens. So if the people who made certain immigrants illegal were concerned about them being screwed over, they would have made them legal.

Quote :

"Because those things are a direct result of breaking the law in the first place."

No man. That's not how causation works. I'm pretty confident that I can be at .09 BAC and drive a car just fine. I don't do it, for many reasons, but I'll throw down good money that says I can. Let's say I'm driving with a .09, not violating any other traffic law, and someone runs a red light and kills me. I'm breaking the law by driving over the legal limit; does that mean my death was a direct result of my alcohol consumption?

Quote :

"it seems to follow that if you make people think doing something illegal won't be punished, then more people will do it. Kinda makes sense."

Not really. The historical trend seems to indicate that the biggest factor influencing immigration, legal and otherwise, is the economy and availability of jobs. While coming up here, deportation (the only real punishment available) is not a big concern to illegal immigrants. Many of them are stopped at or just across the border most of the times they try to cross it. Likewise, amnesty does not really influence potential illegals -- they weren't over the fence in time to take advantage of it, so it really doesn't matter to them that a bunch of people who crossed before got a free pass. They're just as screwed as everyone who is crossing the border.

Amnesty (or the lack thereof) overwhelmingly affects people who are already here; that is, they've established lives, sent kids to school, pay taxes, have jobs and places of residence. It doesn't do jack all shit to influence incoming populations.

5/28/2009 12:06:41 AM

Quote :

"Except there are people in this study who neither broke the law nor aided anybody else -- US citizens and legal residents. I hope you're not going so far as to say every legal US citizen or resident who immigrated to this country aids and abets illegals."

This is kind of why I said that not standing up and being vocal about it kind of damns you, as well. You lie down with dogs, you get fleas. You know somebody is illegal, and you help them in any way, even by not turning them in, and, well, you practically deserve people looking at you suspiciously at that point.

Quote :

"How in the name of all that is good and sacred and not fucking stupid does this make ANY GODDAMN SENSE AT ALL? One of these situations involves an elected government punishing people for violating the law. The other involves private citizens punishing people for violating the law -- and also for profit!"

It makes perfect sense. You broke the law. And, as you broke the law, you made yourself a target to be victimized. I'm not advocating that people go out and fuck over illegal immigrants. But, if some people do, I'm not going to cry about it, either. Just like I don't cry for the guy that runs from the cops and gets killed when his car flips over.

Quote :

"Because, see, here's the thing. It's much, much harder to screw over legal residents/citizens."

All the more reason to ENFORCE THE LAW. Not get rid of it. The law serves a good purpose, namely knowing who the hell is coming in and out of the country. And, I'm going to be an asshole here, too, but, when we have a fucking welfare society, then you better damned-well believe that I want to limit the number of people coming in who might become net liabilities to the system. You get rid of the welfare state, and I'll remove practically all of my concerns about illegal immigration.

Quote :

"I'm pretty confident that I can be at .09 BAC and drive a car just fine. I don't do it, for many reasons, but I'll throw down good money that says I can. Let's say I'm driving with a .09, not violating any other traffic law, and someone runs a red light and kills me. I'm breaking the law by driving over the legal limit; does that mean my death was a direct result of my alcohol consumption?"

In that case, no. But, if you cherry pick an absurd example, you can prove the sky is red with pink hippos. In this case, someone commits a crime. The crime makes them wary of talking to authorities. This makes them susceptible to being taken advantage of. Bam. Causation.

Quote :

"Likewise, amnesty does not really influence potential illegals -- they weren't over the fence in time to take advantage of it, so it really doesn't matter to them that a bunch of people who crossed before got a free pass."

No, but it let's them know if they can hide long enough, they'll probably get amnesty, too. That's kind of the whole point. When people know the law won't be enforced, they will break it. The same reason you speed, really. Hey, I won't get a ticket for 4 over, so I'm gonna go 4 over.

5/28/2009 12:20:05 AM

Quote :

"You know somebody is illegal, and you help them in any way, even by not turning them in, and, well, you practically deserve people looking at you suspiciously at that point."

Then if this issue is not entangled with race, people should look at me suspiciously all the time. I should always be treated like a criminal. I have suspected people of being illegal and not turned them in. I have known people were here illegally and not turned them in. Likewise I have known people that have used marijuana, cocaine, mushrooms, LSD, and God knows what else, and not turned them in. I have known people that have sold several of those things and not turned them in. I do not call the police when I see people panhandling in areas where it is illegal to do so. I have not called the police when people hitch hike on interstates. I have not turned in people who drank underage. I have not submitted to the NC Attorney General people who I have seen get into fights. And I could go on.

And you know what? I bet you fall into a lot of these categories. Do people look at you suspiciously? Do police harass you? Does your employer try to underpay you?

Quote :

"All the more reason to ENFORCE THE LAW. Not get rid of it."

Don't fucking try to change the subject, you dishonest prick. I asked you a goddamn question and you answered with something completely unrelated.

You claimed that part of the reason we have laws against immigration is to keep people from taking advantage of illegal immigrants. Talk about that, and not some welfare bullshit.

Quote :

"In this case, someone commits a crime. The crime makes them wary of talking to authorities. This makes them susceptible to being taken advantage of. Bam. Causation. "

ALL CRIMES MAKE PEOPLE WARY OF TALKING TO AUTHORITIES.

In fact, plenty of non-crimes make people wary of talking to authorities. In a lot of places, being black makes people wary of talking to authorities. Plenty of legal immigrants are wary of it because they know they're profiled.

If I didn't die in my hypothetical car crash, I wouldn't be eager to talk to the police, because it'd be much easier to prove that I was over the limit than it would be to prove that the other guy ran a red light.

Quote :

"No, but it let's them know if they can hide long enough, they'll probably get amnesty, too. That's kind of the whole point."

But this has little to do with immigration -- that is, the actual crossing of the border. Many (possibly most) border crossers don't plan on staying here long enough to get amnesty. They tend to make that decision after they've already been up here a while. The crossers who would like to stay are far more worried about the immediate impediments -- border patrols, natural barriers, difficulty finding transportation and a job, etc.

The only people who are encouraged by amnesty programs are the ones who are already up here, and getting rid of amnesty isn't going to make them leave.

5/28/2009 12:33:50 AM

Quote :

"I'm surprised that GoldenViper, of all people, "didn't realize things were quite so bad.""

Yeah, I'm ashamed at myself. But reading fifty pages about oppression did give me a slightly different perspective. That's how it goes. The prevalence of wage theft particularly surprised me.

Quote :

"The various advocacy groups seem largely impotent and terribly managed. I have some personal experience with that aspect."

I'm interested in hearing more about this. Would you share some stories and specifics?

Quote :

"Rather, I am saying that the situation these people are in exists precisely because they broke the law or aided people who did."

While I no sympathy whatsoever for your position, note that many of the problems listed in the reported affect legal residents and American citizens. There's not the clear distinction between illegals and everyone else that you might like.

5/28/2009 1:14:14 AM

Quote :

"I'm interested in hearing more about this. Would you share some stories and specifics? "

Well, the example that I've been particularly mad about for a while stems from several months ago. An immigrant right's organization had a paid position open, and I applied. They called me in, said they couldn't hire me, but would love to let me volunteer. I said, "Absolutely, I'd love to, this is an issue that is important to me. I have relevant skills and education, and I've got plenty of free time to devote to whatever you want." The lady -- director of the advocacy arm -- took my information and promised to send me information on opportunities. After a week I heard nothing. I wrote her a polite (I swear) reminder. Another week, nothing. Wrote again, this time to the volunteer coordinator. Still nothing. Tried several other people, through both e-mail and letters. Still nothing.

At some point, when you're refusing to even acknowledge people who are begging to work for you for free, a guy starts to get disenchanted with the whole process.

But it's more than just what affects me, of course. My neighbors (who, until recently, have been predominantly Latin American immigrants) never liked to discuss sensitive issues with me. I do know that most of the activities that get press are inane protests that get little else but scorn. They may be doing more meaningful shit, but their PR is not great.

5/28/2009 1:33:39 AM

Quote :

"Then if this issue is not entangled with race,"

It absolutely is entangled with race. I've never denied that. But, it's not as simple as "we don't want no brownies." I've already been through this with you.

Quote :

"Don't fucking try to change the subject, you dishonest prick."

someone is getting testy. no response, I can tell.

Quote :

"ALL CRIMES MAKE PEOPLE WARY OF TALKING TO AUTHORITIES."

yes, but not all crimes make you more susceptible of being taken advantage of. I'm going to talk to the cops if someone is fucking with me, even if I just ran a red light. If I've got a bloody body in the back seat, maybe not.

Quote :

"But this has little to do with immigration -- that is, the actual crossing of the border. "

How? People know they won't be caught, and if they are, they know we won't do shit. And then, due to the amnesty, they know that if they can stay under the radar long enough, they will probably get their own amnesty. How hard is that to comprehend?

Quote :

"The only people who are encouraged by amnesty programs are the ones who are already up here, and getting rid of amnesty isn't going to make them leave."

I never said a lack of amnesty would make people leave. Rather, the existence of amnesty clearly encourages people to come here, as witnessed by the spike in illegal immigration after the previous round. Or, did santa claus just come in and start dropping bon-bons and ice cream in the desert magically after the previous amnesty bill?

5/28/2009 8:45:05 AM

^ None of that justifies the racially hostile environment the right is encouraging, which is what the point of the initial article is.

There are certainly some practical reasons why illegal immigration is not good, but this doesn't mean it's okay to be unfairly discriminatory.

5/28/2009 11:32:11 AM

i'm all for helping legal citizens and that's where my sympathy ends

5/28/2009 11:34:32 AM

What about legal residents?

Or legal visitors?

5/28/2009 11:45:23 AM

As far as I am concerned illegals are here at their own risk.

If a con man promises them work for money than retains the wages or some thug takes their wallet; BOO fucking hooo

I am realistic enough to realize that it is not economical or feasible to round up every illegal immigrant and ship them back to Mexico. This does not mean though that i should have to pay for them to visit the hospital b.c they have a headache, get equal use of our legal or law enforcement system, and any other service that as a tax payer I pay for.

5/28/2009 12:35:20 PM

I went to buy a kilo of coke and the fucking drug dealer robbed me! Thats not fair!

5/28/2009 12:57:56 PM

Quote :

"It absolutely is entangled with race. I've never denied that. But, it's not as simple as "we don't want no brownies.""

Then please, explain the racial component to me.

Quote :

"no response, I can tell."

Nice try. If I respond to your non-sequitur, we end up going further off topic. I asked a question and I want a response. I won't respond to your non-answer.

Quote :

"yes, but not all crimes make you more susceptible of being taken advantage of."

So? Being taken advantage of by sleazeballs is not a sentence handed down by a court. And it's also not applied solely to illegals.

Quote :

"People know they won't be caught, and if they are, they know we won't do shit."

This is not even remotely accurate. Most are caught at least once in attempting to cross the border, and they are sent back to Mexico. Maybe you consider that "not doing shit," but it's all that can be done unless you want the immigrants to stay up here in jail on your dime. Your brilliant theory also ignores the large number of immigrants who intend to come here temporarily, making amnesty a minor incentive at best.

Quote :

"Rather, the existence of amnesty clearly encourages people to come here, as witnessed by the spike in illegal immigration after the previous round. Or, did santa claus just come in and start dropping bon-bons and ice cream in the desert magically after the previous amnesty bill?"

And here we start confusing correlation and causation again. The last amnesty was in 1986 -- right about the American economy was shifting into high gear after a townturn. Jobs were more plentiful and more money was to be made. It's also around the time when a number of Latin American countries were hitting rock bottom in terms of violence and poverty.

And admittedly my search is being cut short by class, but I haven't found anything yet that indicates a remarkable increase after amnesty.

5/28/2009 1:09:48 PM

who cares about mexicans?

They moved here dreaming of a better life. Good for them - if they can't find it tough shit. Life is hard for a lot of Americans looking for a job. Would rather employ those who are foreclosing than those who are living in a panel van.

Fuck man - when times are good, we are all about hearing how we can help mexicans

when americans are struggling, mexicans can go fuck themselves

those who can speak english and add value to society - i feel the same way as i do about unemployed americans - i might be one of them soon. Would go out of my way to help them, but I think a lot of mexicans are realizing that america is not an immediate ticket to middle class...

being middle class sucks and it's not going to improve overnight - many of us middle class folks are also struggling to make house payments on houses we could easily afford a year ago.

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 1:22 AM. Reason : mexicellent]

5/29/2009 1:18:26 AM

^ While I understand focusing on one's local community, the appeal to national identity means nothing to me.

5/29/2009 2:03:33 AM

Quote :

"They moved here dreaming of a better life. Good for them - if they can't find it tough shit. Life is hard for a lot of Americans looking for a job. Would rather employ those who are foreclosing than those who are living in a panel van. Fuck man - when times are good, we are all about hearing how we can help mexicans when americans are struggling, mexicans can go fuck themselves "

[/thread]

5/29/2009 8:46:44 AM

In terms of appeal to national identity, that shit resonates with me.

I don't wanna belong to a country that relies on an actual underclass to get shit done. I believe we're better than that now.

Get them out and keep them out. Or make them legal.

Until one of those goals is accomplished, progress on this issue will be slow.

And I do not like the temporary progress we've been accomplishing. Giving them some rights but keeping them illegal makes me uncomfortable. Folks up top need to stop playing with themselves and take some real action.

5/29/2009 8:50:03 AM

Quote :

"I don't wanna belong to a country that relies on an actual underclass to get shit done."

Then I don't believe you have any options. If you think you've found one, check the imports.

Quote :

"I believe we're better than that now."

Apparently not.

Quote :

"Until one of those goals is accomplished, progress on this issue will be slow."

Probably true. Unfortunately, I see little reason to believe that will happen anytime soon. Illegals are here now. Like all human beings, they deserve as much freedom from oppression as possible.

5/29/2009 9:48:07 AM

le sigh...if only i was alive back when America meant something and stood for something.

5/29/2009 10:07:56 AM

Quote :

"Then I don't believe you have any options. If you think you've found one, check the imports."

Imports are a little different. That's international disparity and shit.

The business with Latinos in the US is going down on our soil and does not require a complicated solution. There's nothing inevitable about it. I realize there are greater international difficulties that play directly into the immigration problem we have here (why are they coming here in the first place, etc...), but we can still address the immediate consequences here in the states.

Quote :

"Probably true. Unfortunately, I see little reason to believe that will happen anytime soon. Illegals are here now. Like all human beings, they deserve as much freedom from oppression as possible."

I agree, but that's not evident to everybody, particularly people who are very much hung up on status labels. And it is very difficult to get around the original fact (they are here illegally) in a practical manner.

Anti-immigration folks (anti-brown people for the most part--let's be real) got the law on their side. On the other hand, we got ideas about human rights that again, let's be real, aren't even recognized by the majority of the world.

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : ...]

5/29/2009 10:19:44 AM

Quote :

"I am realistic enough to realize that it is not economical or feasible to round up every illegal immigrant and ship them back to Mexico. This does not mean though that i should have to pay for them to visit the hospital b.c they have a headache, get equal use of our legal or law enforcement system, and any other service that as a tax payer I pay for."

What does this mean, exactly? That before a police officer should assist a person in distress they should ask for their papers? Or is it just brown-looking people? Papiere, bitte

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 10:33 AM. Reason : .]

5/29/2009 10:32:28 AM

^That's the dilemma for the status-obsessed. There's no way to distinguish between legal and illegal without inviting a racist free-for-all.



Sorry, guys. I know I'm just stating the obvious. I just feel like posting.

5/29/2009 10:51:07 AM

Quote :

"le sigh...if only i was alive back when America meant something and stood for something."

lol

America is an experiment in democracy that has never come close to an actualization of the ideals that make up romantic paintings, battle hymns and old newsreels

one day we hope to get to that point, but it simply hasn't happened yet

sure we beat the Nazis... with segregated armies

and then they told all the women in the factories to go back home and be subservient again... "freedom for all" indeed

also, where are my rocket cars and daily trips to the moon promised to me by the people of the 1950s?

but back on topic i suppose...

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 11:10 AM. Reason : video-game historics]

5/29/2009 11:09:20 AM

^America is not perfect. But that is no excuse to turn away people desperate to come to this country and do the jobs that no 'legal' American is willing to do. Not to mention every single one of you came to this country one way or another.

5/29/2009 11:46:57 AM

^ Yeah, no "legal" American is willing to work a hard and/or dangerous job.





[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 12:15 PM. Reason : And these are just a couple of examples. ]

5/29/2009 12:02:39 PM

Quote :

"attempts to address these problems? "

I havent read the article yet but if the victim is a legal immigrant then why cant they report through the same legal channels as anyone else?

5/29/2009 12:17:53 PM

^^totally not even in the same league as the jobs i'm talking about. Not to mention these jobs do have their rewards.

5/29/2009 12:22:01 PM

^ Yes, like some of the highest death and injury rates of any jobs in existence.

Quote :

"One of the most dangerous jobs is timber cutting. People who cut down trees have an accident rate of 118 per 100,000 workers. Most of the deaths occur due to falling trees. The death rate for timber cutters is nearly 30 times that of the average worker. Timber cutters earn around 60,000 US dollars (USD) over a ten month period. Another extremely dangerous job is in the fishing industry. Fishing is ranked the second most dangerous job in the world. Out of every 100,000 workers, there are 71 fatalities due to work related incidents. Deep sea fishing with treacherous weather conditions accounts for a large percentage of this. Not surprisingly, drowning is the number one cause of death in the fishing industry. Crab fishing in Alaska is extremely dangerous. The weather conditions are so severe that ice can capsize the boats. The machinery involves huge steel cages, and the fishing season lasts for only four weeks. There are around 400 deaths for every 100,000 workers in the shellfish industry. On a good day, a crab fisherman can earn around 1,000 USD."

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-most-dangerous-jobs.htm

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 12:26 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2009 12:24:20 PM

Yet anyone of these men will think twice before doing a job that illegal immigrants do. which is what I am talking about. Not jobs on the top 100 most dangerous list that each have their own reality show

5/29/2009 12:41:17 PM

Quote :

"I havent read the article yet but if the victim is a legal immigrant then why cant they report through the same legal channels as anyone else?"

Paranoia and a lack of understanding about the legal system in many cases. In others, I suspect, it's the same reason that many minorities won't go to the authorities: they think the authorities don't care about beaners.

Quote :

"They moved here dreaming of a better life. Good for them - if they can't find it tough shit. Life is hard for a lot of Americans looking for a job. Would rather employ those who are foreclosing than those who are living in a panel van. Fuck man - when times are good, we are all about hearing how we can help mexicans when americans are struggling, mexicans can go fuck themselves"

What? Nothing in this quote has anything to do with the thread. We're not talking about handing immigrants a better life on a platter. Nor has any comment been made about preferential hiring. We're not even talking about "helping" the immigrants -- we're talking about no longer active hurting them, with corrupt cops, officials, and employers. And neither of these is really helping good old fashioned American white people in the economic crisis, either.

5/29/2009 12:54:44 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, no "legal" American is willing to work a hard and/or dangerous job."

LOL

rsx implied nothing about working hard or dangerous jobs. haha

5/29/2009 12:58:43 PM

^^^ Yes, clearly, reality shows are standard issue for all loggers and crab fisherman--they come with each purchase of a chainsaw and a crab pot.

^ Since you apparently are now an interpreter for RSXTypeS, what did he mean by "jobs that no 'legal' American is willing to do"--low-wage jobs? This won't hold water, either. Americans perform hard or dangerous or low-wage work or any combination of these every day of the week.


[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/29/2009 2:18:33 PM

^ see ^^... because as he actually read my post and pointed out...I was not referring to your Discovery channel top 100 most dangerous jobs TV show that you obviously saw.

And you know exactly what jobs I am referring too...

5/29/2009 2:48:22 PM

Every fast food restaurant on capital (except chic-fil-a for some reason) has black people at the counter and Hispanics in the back. I'm not sure how this is relevant but it seemed interesting to me.

5/29/2009 3:02:29 PM

^^^ So who exactly is hiring the n-million illegal workers here, and why?

I'm pretty sure they don't swim across rivers and hop fences just to go on vacation here.

5/29/2009 5:15:45 PM

Quote :

"do the jobs that no 'legal' American is willing to do"

Quote :

"anyone of these men will think twice before doing a job that illegal immigrants do"

yeah, cause there are so many great job openings available in the market right now! everyone can afford to be very selective!

what jobs are you talking about specifically, fast food and construction? landscaping?

5/29/2009 5:27:19 PM

Quote :

"I don't wanna belong to a country that relies on an actual underclass to get shit done"

I hate to sound cliche' but if you don't like it than u can GTFO

An underclass does not exist just because the evil rich people need someones cheap labor to continue living the good life.

The underclass is there b.c of natural laws of reality

There will always be some people who are not smart enough, lack motivation, or just plain lazy to do anything beyond menial labor
Sure some people are there a victim of circumstances but not everyone is physcially/mentally capable of reason and advanced
skills required to hold the more competitive higher paying jobs.

5/29/2009 8:15:27 PM

Quote :

"The underclass is there b.c of natural laws of reality"

No way. The laws of nature give us surprising freedom.

5/29/2009 8:30:24 PM

Well in real nature these would be the gazelles eaten by the lion.

I do not understand why it is so difficult or even wrong they in every society there will high achieving or high intelligence people and there will be low achieving or low intelligence people.

[Edited on May 29, 2009 at 10:07 PM. Reason : l]

5/29/2009 10:05:49 PM

illegality breeds illegality. If employers get used to ripping off some employees they will start trying to do it to others. Also, if criminals get to practice without risk on illegal immigrants, they will soon try their skills on non-immigrants.

As such, to ensure tranquility the government either needs to figure out how to deport all illegals or make them all legal.

In my opinion, getting a work visa for America should be quite easy, especially for poor people. That way, they can come in and work, aquire our enlightenned sense of pervasive legality, then take it home to better their home countries after they have saved up enough.

5/29/2009 11:43:57 PM

Quote :

"I know nothing of these problems, hadn't seen or heard anything about them up until now"

i couldnt past that

5/30/2009 12:38:09 AM

Quote :

"If employers get used to ripping off some employees they will start trying to do it to others."

you do realize that this is the one of the arguments to which the 'democrats of power' (not to confused with Tiwanda democrat) justifies the policies they seek on capital hill in opposition of many republicans.

5/30/2009 4:01:53 AM

set em up

5/31/2009 2:36:54 PM