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nutsmackr
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Quote :
"The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws"


I'm sure an escape from ADX Florence by a terrorist would be admissible under the changes put into place in 2005.

Quote :
"What tangent have you rambled onto now. Custody procedures are the issue here. After all you said, "but there isn't much difference in maximum security prisons and so-called supermax prisons.""


Anyone not attempting to masturbate their ego will recognize the massive difference between ADX Florence and any other Maximum Security Prison. After all, when it comes to housing terrorists, ADX Florence would be the place and not Pelican Bay Maximum Security Prison or any other prison for that matter.

Again, even if the custodial procedures similar, it doesn't make the conditions of the lock up the same nor does it make the security at ADX Florence unsafe.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 9:04 PM. Reason : jerk your wounded ego elsewhere.]

7/14/2009 9:03:47 PM

hooksaw
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^ Jesus, some of you are just plain stupid. Even the Obama administration would not deploy the National Guard to catch an escaped prisoner(s).

The soldiers might deploy to locations like airports and train and bus stations and so on. But they wouldn't be going door to door searching homes like law enforcement officers.

Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/14/2009 9:08:07 PM

nutsmackr
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For an escaped terrorist?

Quote :
"But they wouldn't be going door to door searching homes like law enforcement officers."


True, but you don't think they wouldn't be called out to help sweep and conduct ground searches for escaped terrorists?

Quote :
"ADX Florence also has a "special" ultramax section where international and domestic spies, traitors, terrorists, and other elements the Federal Government of the United States designates as especially deserving of punishment but is unable to execute (due to the decision of a jury) or who have not exhausted their appeals as of yet. ADX Florence is considered to be of a security level above that of all other prisons in the United States, at least in the "ideological" ultramax part of it, which features permanent 24 hour solitary confinement with no human contact or opportunity to earn better conditions through good behavior; some accuse it of being deliberately designed and operated so as to effectively torture its inmates."


So this isn't dissimilar to any prison you have worked in before?

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 9:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 9:14:20 PM

hooksaw
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SUPERMAX WASN'T GOOD ENOUGH. . .

NOW THERE'S ULTRAMAX--THIS TIME WE MEAN BUSINESS!!!1

SHUs and the like are nothing more than maximum security areas within already maximum security facilities. Many prisons have these types of areas.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 9:22 PM. Reason : ^ Do you have any evidence that the terrorists in question would be placed in "ultramax"?]

7/14/2009 9:21:08 PM

nutsmackr
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Jesus Christ, will you just admit you know absolutely nothing about ADX Florence?

Quote :
"^ Do you have any evidence that the terrorists in question would be placed in "ultramax"?"


Every single terrorist currently held at ADX Florence is in ultramax.



[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 9:24 PM. Reason : .]

7/14/2009 9:22:46 PM

hooksaw
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^ What do you know about it? And I know custody procedures.


Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/14/2009 9:24:17 PM

nutsmackr
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Please tell me, how many prisons have this as a term of lock up.

Quote :
"in the "ideological" ultramax part of it, which features permanent 24 hour solitary confinement with no human contact or opportunity to earn better conditions through good behavior; some accuse it of being deliberately designed and operated so as to effectively torture its inmates."



Question, have you even bothered to read up on ADX Florence?

7/14/2009 9:26:31 PM

HUR
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"I knew some know-it-all would post something like that. Do you really want to do this? "


What something that makes sense.

7/14/2009 9:54:51 PM

eleusis
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.

[Edited on July 14, 2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason : fuck it]

7/14/2009 10:49:50 PM

nutsmackr
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Have you read up on ADX Florence yet?

7/15/2009 9:09:28 AM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/15/2009 4:23:44 PM

nutsmackr
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Do you know the custody procedure differences between ADX Florence and Central Prison in Raleigh?

Also, do you wet yourself at night knowing the following people are housed at ADX Florence:

Abdul Hakim Murad, of al-Qaeda's Operation Bojinka
Ahmed Ajaj, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, Al Qaeda conspirator in several plots, including one to assassinate U.S. President George W. Bush
Ahmed Ressam, of the 2000 millennium attack plots
Clement Rodney Hampton-El, a.k.a. Dr. Rashid, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Dandeny Muñoz Mosquera, chief assassin for Pablo Escobar, responsible for the bombing of Avianca Flight 203
El Sayyid Nosair, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Eric Robert Rudolph, 18282-058, terrorist, committed the Centennial Olympic Park bombing and other bombings
Eyad Ismail, 37802-054, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Iyman Faris, also of the NYC landmark plot, sentenced to 20 years in 2003
James Ujaama, who tried to develop an al-Qaeda camp in Oregon
Jeff Fort, he is currently imprisoned on drug trafficking charges. He is also the only American citizen ever convicted of terrorism for hire
John Walker Lindh, dubbed "The American Taliban
Jose Padilla, 20796-424, convicted of aiding terrorists
Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, participant in the 1998 United States embassy bombings
Mahmud Abouhalima, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-Owhali, of the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings
Mohammed A. Salameh, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Mohammed Ali Hassan Al-Moayad, would-be financier of al-Qaeda and Hamas, serving 75 years
Mohammed Odeh is one of the four former al-Qaeda members sentenced to life imprisonment in 2001 for their parts in the 1998 United States embassy bombings.
Mohammed Mansour Jabarah A Canadian convicted of terrorism-related offences
Nidal Ayyad, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing
Oscar Rivera, leader of the Armed Forces of National Liberation, a Puerto Rican militant group, for bombing 28 targets in the Chicago area. Received an additional 15-year sentence for an escape attempt (from another prison).
Ramzi Yousef, 03911-000, of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and Operation Bojinka, senior al-Qaeda member
Richard Reid, 24079-038, al-Qaeda's would-be "Shoe Bomber"
Terry Nichols, 08157-031, Oklahoma City bombing conspirator
Theodore Kaczynski, 04475-046, the "Unabomber"
Wadih el-Hage, 42393-054, of the 1998 United States embassy bombings in Africa
Wali Khan Amin Shah Operation Bojinka
Zacarias Moussaoui, 51427-054, of the September 11, 2001 attacks



And if ADX Florence wasn't that much different than Maximum Security in State prisons, why would state's such as Georgia send people like this to ADX Florence?

H. Rap Brown 99974-555, former civil rights activist convicted of murdering a Georgia sheriff's deputy (NOTE: Brown is a Georgia state inmate held here because Georgia does not have a suitable facility.)

[Edited on July 15, 2009 at 5:03 PM. Reason : .]

7/15/2009 4:54:04 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/15/2009 10:11:50 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"Do you know the custody procedure differences between ADX Florence and Central Prison in Raleigh?"


Here's a hint Hooksaw, no one outside of high level BOP and ADX Florence guards really know the true custodial procedures there on "Bombers Row"

7/15/2009 10:22:36 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/16/2009 4:54:31 AM

nutsmackr
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Do you know the custody procedures? Why don't you explain them to us unenlightened people out there.


The more your refuse, the more I'm begining to think you don't know.

7/16/2009 8:56:02 AM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


^ You trolled that there is a "world of difference" between so-called supermax and maximum security. Yet, you now troll that no one can know except a select few prison officials--you made the claim; it's "incumbent," as you put it, upon you to provide evidence.

Self-troll?

7/16/2009 5:10:25 PM

nutsmackr
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in terms of everything i've seen between supermax and maximum shows they are different. You keep talking about the difference/lack there of between supermax and maximum. Why don't you elucidate us on the lack of differences and differences. That is if you can.

7/16/2009 10:05:23 PM

spöokyjon

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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/16/2009 10:31:37 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"There is a world of difference between the Supermax in Florence Colorado and the Maximum Security Prison in Allentown."


nutsmackr (claims to have taken a tour of a prison and has some family and friends in corrections)

Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


hooksaw (former correctional officer for the State of North Carolina and the Commonwealth of Virginia; graduate of two justice academies--totaling 320 hours of coursework and hands-on training; numerous hours of in-service training; about three years on-the-job experience; and a commendation)

7/17/2009 2:57:50 AM

nutsmackr
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Then why don't you just fucking say it.

Also, State prisons aren't federal prisons.

7/17/2009 12:34:51 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/17/2009 6:38:52 PM

nutsmackr
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Why don't you just fucking state it.

7/17/2009 8:55:19 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/17/2009 10:05:05 PM

agentlion
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hey, smart guy - you're apparently the only one here that has worked in a prison. You have a chance to impart some actual knowledge on us, for once, instead of spouting ad hominems and whining all the time like you usually do. So quit being a hard ass and take us to school, if you can.

7/17/2009 10:15:55 PM

hooksaw
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^ Read the fucking thread, "smart guy"--I already have.

7/17/2009 10:23:23 PM

nutsmackr
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No you haven't.

7/18/2009 9:48:55 AM

spöokyjon

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No you haven't.

7/18/2009 12:04:46 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."

7/18/2009 8:37:10 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"hey, smart guy - you're apparently the only one here that has worked in a prison. You have a chance to impart some actual knowledge on us, for once, instead of spouting ad hominems and whining all the time like you usually do. So quit being a hard ass and take us to school, if you can."

7/18/2009 9:59:12 PM

hooksaw
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Quote :
"There is a world of difference between the Supermax in Florence Colorado and the Maximum Security Prison in Allentown."


nutsmackr

Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


hooksaw

7/19/2009 12:04:57 AM

joe_schmoe
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this is a good thread. First thing that caught my attention was that I really liked hooksaw's original post. it was very informative, and always interesting to read someone who has significant experience in a subject, speak on that subject.

but it's also clear that nutsmackr did quite well comparing and contrasting max and supermax. (i did not know about ultramax. that sounds like pure hell, and i think i'd lose my mind.) I would have thought the whole thing was wrapped up quite nicely, but hooksaw is still insisting that one aspect wasnt addressed: the difference in custody procedures. which, apparently, must be very important

so, i sure wish hooksaw would tell us what the differences are. otherwise I guess we'll never know. honestly, im beginning to wonder if there even is a difference, if the difference matters, or if hooksaw even knows.





[Edited on July 19, 2009 at 2:08 AM. Reason : ]

7/19/2009 1:53:35 AM

eleusis
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who gives a shit about custody procedures? No one has ever escaped a supermax prison or even made an attempt worth taking seriously. do we really need to analyze the custody procedures to know if they're working or not?

7/19/2009 2:41:42 AM

joe_schmoe
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come on, hooksaw. answer the question. it's your own question. it shouldn't be too hard for you to answer.

7/19/2009 3:21:52 AM

joe_schmoe
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*cough*

7/25/2009 1:10:46 PM

hooksaw
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Why should I waste my time attempting to discuss issues or posts with people who (1) are attacking me--the one person in the thread who has any real expertise in the area being discussed; (2) people who have permanent blinders on; (3) people who have no intention of admitting that they're wrong and wouldn't admit it no matter how much evidence I present; and (4) people who are probably trolling anyway?

In any event, here's evidence that some here don't know what the fuck they're talking about. The New York Times is having a fucking freak out because Bush merely considered using American soldiers in US cities.

Bush weighed using GIs in U.S. arrests
Cheney argued that president could use troops to sweep up terror suspects


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32133816/ns/politics-the_new_york_times

7/25/2009 1:44:56 PM

joe_schmoe
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Quote :
"come on, hooksaw. answer the question. it's your own question. it shouldn't be too hard for you to answer"

7/25/2009 1:46:09 PM

spöokyjon

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Quote :
"The New York Times is having a fucking freak out because Bush merely considered using American soldiers in US cities."

I have this problem a lot lately, but I'm trying to figure out if you're:
A) Too stupid to know why this would be a huge deal.
B) Too ignorant to know why this would be a huge deal.
C) You have both the mental wherewithal and the knowledge to know why this would have been a huge deal, but you just don't give a shit.

7/25/2009 1:51:40 PM

BobbyDigital
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Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures

7/25/2009 2:14:44 PM

nutsmackr
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look everyone, hooksaw is trying to change the subject.

7/25/2009 5:37:01 PM

joe_schmoe
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Quote :
"so, i sure wish hooksaw would tell us what the differences are. otherwise I guess we'll never know. honestly, im beginning to wonder if there even is a difference, if the difference matters, or if hooksaw even knows."

7/25/2009 5:49:27 PM

nutsmackr
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Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures

7/26/2009 12:05:26 PM

joe_schmoe
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hmmm. if i didn't know any better...

it looks like hooksaw made a very weak and transparent attempt to change the subject then bailed from the thread as soon as he was challenged to actually provide some substance besides blustery personal attacks and general huffing and puffing.

but that can't be, because that is exactly what he always accuses everyone else of doing.

And I really hoped to be enlightened by an expert.

Why do all of my heroes fail? I have so few in this world






[Edited on July 26, 2009 at 1:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2009 12:59:53 PM

skokiaan
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He's acting the way you act when you get caught in a lie.

7/26/2009 1:00:56 PM

hooksaw
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1. You shouldn't be questioning anyone's knowledge about anything, schmoe. You didn't even know what branch of government the US attorney general was in until I educated you:

message_topic.aspx?topic=555924&page=2

BUT I'M AN INJUNEER!!!1 Dummy.

2. And you forget D, spöogyjon: none of the above. If you'd bothered reading the thread, I already listed the main problem with using US troops to capture terrorists on US soil: The Posse Comitatus Act. But don't let facts get in the way of your idiocy.

message_topic.aspx?topic=568262&page=1

BTW, I wonder if nutsmackr will defend using US troops now knowing that "evil" Cheney proposed it? And Bush made the decision not to do so--wasn't it Cheney who supposedly made all the decisions?

3. It is incumbent upon nutsmackr to prove that there is "world of difference" between custody procedures at a so-called supermax prison and a maximum security prison--and he has yet to do so.

I will address the similarities of the facilities at some point--a time of my choosing. I will not operate on the timetable of a bunch of ignorant cackling hyenas that aren't going to believe what I post anyway.

Oh, and one more thing. . .

Quote :
"Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures."


[Edited on July 26, 2009 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2009 4:58:59 PM

joe_schmoe
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Okay, Let's recap:


Quote :
"schmoe: this is a good thread. First thing that caught my attention was that I really liked hooksaw's original post. it was very informative, and always interesting to read someone who has significant experience in a subject, speak on that subject.

...

i sure wish hooksaw would tell us what the differences are [in these custody procedures]. otherwise I guess we'll never know. honestly, im beginning to wonder if there even is a difference, if the difference matters, or if hooksaw even knows.
"


Quote :
"schmoe: come on, hooksaw. answer the question. it's your own question. it shouldn't be too hard for you to answer."


Quote :
"hooksaw: Bush Cheney wharrglblargl"


Quote :
"BobbyD: Then simply explain the difference in custody procedures"


Quote :
"nutsmack: look everyone, hooksaw is trying to change the subject."


Quote :
"schmoe: it looks like hooksaw made a very weak and transparent attempt to change the subject then bailed from the thread as soon as he was challenged to actually provide some substance besides blustery personal attacks and general huffing and puffing. ... but that can't be, because that is exactly what he always accuses everyone else of doing."


Quote :
"skokiaan: He's acting the way you act when you get caught in a lie."


Quote :
"hooksaw: I will not [answer the question according to] the timetable of a bunch of ignorant cackling hyenas that aren't going to believe what I post anyway. "


look man, i was believing you 100% through half the first page. I was even going to commend you on some exceptionally informative posts, made all the more valuable by their having come from someone with an insider's point of view.

but then you went apeshit on nutsmackr's otherwise apparently thorough and balanced attempt to compare and contrast the various security levels of federal corrections facilities -- because (we can only assume) he made some point or other that aggravated you.

now YOU claim that he failed to address one aspect that, at least in your mind, is the critical lynchpin to understanding all of it. But since no one here other than you can answer this question, we now MUST turn back to you, our resident corrections facilities expert, to answer your own question:

>> Will you simply explain the difference in custody procedures <<

otherwise, we're all just going to have to conclude that the question itself is a red herring, designed by you to attack the person rather than adding any value whatsoever to the discussion.








[Edited on July 26, 2009 at 6:03 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2009 5:49:47 PM

nutsmackr
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Quote :
"BTW, I wonder if nutsmackr will defend using US troops now knowing that "evil" Cheney proposed it? And Bush made the decision not to do so--wasn't it Cheney who supposedly made all the decisions? "


Do you not understand the difference between US troops being used to hunt a known, convicted, escaped terrorist and using US troops to arrest people who had not even had a trial yet?

Hell, Governors across this nation call out the National Guard to search for escaped convicts.

[Edited on July 26, 2009 at 6:57 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2009 6:54:02 PM

hooksaw
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^^ Quick, schmoe, which branch of government are correctional officers in? Don't look it up, just take a stab in the dark--and we all know that's what it'll be, am I right?

*cough*

^ Yeah, but apparently you don't.

7/27/2009 2:19:10 PM

joe_schmoe
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all law enforcement are executive, since their job is to neither to create nor interpret, but to enforce the laws

Quote :
"can hooksaw simply explain the difference in custody procedures"


unfortunately, it's looking rather doubtful.








[Edited on July 27, 2009 at 2:27 PM. Reason : ]

7/27/2009 2:24:30 PM

ThePeter
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This was a good read, and semi-relevant to my interests since I have relatives that work in some sort of prison. But now I'm just dying to know

Quote :
"can hooksaw simply explain the difference in custody procedures"

7/27/2009 3:25:47 PM

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