I have virtually no experience with unions, other than when I was a kid and the local union at the aluminum plant I lived near went on an enourmous 3 year strike. Things got really bad. I was only living there in the summers since my parents were divorced, but it was apparent the town was divided. People got killed, houses got vandalized, kids got beat up really bad. You couldn't drive in a car without fear of running over "jackrocks" union workers put in suspected "scabs" neighborhoods.

Needless to say that experience left a sour taste in my mouth. It is amazing that grown supposed adults can act that way, and in the end get what they want. I have been in the military for 12 years now (wow I am getting old) so like I said, I have never had to deal with unions, until now that is. My wife just got a full time job with the school system and she said they told her she "absolutely has to be in the union and also pay union dues." For those of you with experience, is this true? Can she be forced into an organization she doesn't wish to belong to? I am not saying all unions are bad (this one might be great) but the simple fact is, I do not want her to be part of it.

Thanks to any help you can offer.

9/17/2009 7:03:47 PM

You might wanna post what state yall are in: teachers can't unionize in NC.

9/17/2009 7:05:12 PM

Ahhh thank you. I live in New York (not the city).

9/17/2009 7:06:36 PM

no experience, but i suspect she's not legally bound to do that. she might get some dirty looks and gum under her door handle though

9/17/2009 7:19:16 PM

I would not fuck with any union in NY or NJ

9/17/2009 7:23:50 PM

Quote :

"no experience, but i suspect she's not legally bound to do that."

New York is not a right to work state so she may legally have to join the union.

Which teacher's union is it?

9/17/2009 7:32:08 PM

I thought this thread was about mail-order brides.

9/17/2009 8:07:09 PM

Dude that sucks.

9/17/2009 8:09:29 PM

i know that for federal law unions are not allowed to force someone to join. If you want to check the laws out yourself check out the Taft-Hartley Act and the Landrum-Griffin Act.

9/17/2009 8:14:24 PM

haha I thought this was going to be about arranged marriages or something.

In NY and NJ you most definitely can be forced to join a union and pay its dues. If she doesn't want to do that you guys need to move to a right-to-work state.

9/17/2009 8:20:58 PM

In WA state, you aren't legally bound to join a union, but if you don't you forfeit the dues/cost and it goes to charity instead. So you get screwed either way.

9/17/2009 9:51:50 PM

Quote :

"i know that for federal law unions are not allowed to force someone to join. If you want to check the laws out yourself check out the Taft-Hartley Act and the Landrum-Griffin Act."

i think you're a little confused

9/17/2009 10:21:50 PM

That's pretty messed up. It's amazing how states can create laws which really seem to violate some kind of Constitutional rights.... I dunno.

9/17/2009 10:26:31 PM

The doctrine of incorporation, as I understand it (and that is only very roughly) implies that the Bill of Rights only applies to Federal and not State laws unless the Supreme Court specifically dictates that they do. For example, the DC v Heller decision last year only applies to DC because the 2 Amendment has not jet been adjudicated to apply to the states.

9/17/2009 10:29:38 PM

Maybe she wants to join, but doesn't want you to know she wants to, because

Quote :

"the simple fact is, I do not want her to be part of it."

9/17/2009 11:15:11 PM

When in Rome...

9/17/2009 11:20:13 PM

What did Jesus say to the union members?


















Don't do anything until I come back.

9/18/2009 12:08:44 AM

fuck unions.

9/18/2009 12:14:41 AM

the military is basically one big union...don't kid yourself. pretty much guaranteed promotion to a pretty high level (LtCol, CDR, PO1, etc) unless you really really fuck up. guaranteed pay raises each year. the same pay for everyone despite performance differences. guaranteed health care. fat retirement package at a very early age. lobbyists in DC. yadda yadda yadda. only difference is everyone in america pays your union dues and the union isn't exactly going to go on strike.

as someone who has a brother and many friends who are teachers...those who teach in unionized states have it INFINITELY better than those in non-union states. higher pay, better care, more rights...you name it. if you don't want her in a union, better pork on that PCS to a non union state

[Edited on September 18, 2009 at 1:27 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2009 1:16:44 AM

Is it an open shop? If not, she probably has to join or at least pay dues. Is it NYSUT?

I don't know where you were when you saw those things; But those are most likely the actions of individuals, not the union itself. A lot of people are in unions up there, including a lot of middle-class folks who (i know it's a stereotype) I wouldn't expect that kind of behavior from. I mean you're talking about murder, serious destruction of property, a town being divided... to be honest, it sounds a little crazy (some real movie shit). If I had to guess, this place you're talking about had some major "something" (sawmill, steel mill, etc.) which a lot of these people worked at and was sort of the livelihood of the town. If not, I don't even think I can fathom people behaving the way you're describing and it actually having something to do with a union.

In the more developed areas of the mid-atlantic, you could have one guy wearing dirty jeans and a t-shirt, driving a beater and another driving a Lexus and both are union workers (maybe the same union). Plumbers, electricians, communication workers (from the guys who climb phone poles to the people who run the servers), etc. are all in unions. And different unions, and they probably wouldn't have a clue about what was going on with anyone else's union unless it was in the news for some reason. Belonging to a union is much more common there.

Every place is going to have some asshole that probably wants to be a real dick to "scabs." But hey, every place has assholes... union or not. Don't fault the union for the asshole. The stuff you're talking about (murder?) is crazy and probably as extreme of an example, and as rare, as you can get. These are teachers we're talking about, not convicts (pretty tame at the end of the day).. Don't let one bad experience steer you away from something which has seemingly worked for a lot of people for a long time.

my dad has been in unions for as long as I can remember (well, same union but 2 different locals). He was in one in Jersey all while I was growing up, and is in one in philadelphia now. It's never been an issue. I can remember them striking less than a handful of times and only for a couple of weeks at a time. That being said, the teacher's union in philadelphia goes on strike just about every year, or at least they did when I lived around there.

Every union is different. If you're really worried about it, I'd find out about the union and the local she'll be in and see what's it's like. You can probably look it up online and get an idea of how often they strike, what kind of demands they're seeking/having met, etc.


FYI: There's usually very little involvement for most people. She may occasionally have to go to a meeting where they'll explain new deals, etc. She may or may not be asked to vote on strikes, etc. She can probably talk to the shop steward and find out everything she needs to know. Of course, that person is probably going to be fairly union pro. But unless she wanted to be a shop steward or something, she would have little to no actual involvement unless she's asked to vote on a strike and/or picket during a strike.

Is your wife, or are you, just completely anti-union? You have to admit that what you observed when you were younger is very extreme, and not the norm, right? I'd just pay the dues and join. Like someone said... When in Rome... You're in a part of the country now that is big on unions, it's really not a big deal.

and like ^ mentioned, there are great benefits to it.

[Edited on September 18, 2009 at 3:02 AM. Reason : .]

9/18/2009 2:56:18 AM

It seems like there's another question to ask. Can you be forced to join a union was the first, the second should be: What will the repercussions be if she doesn't join? Given your childhood experience with unions, who's to say the union members won't make your wife's life a living hell if she doesn't join.

Sounds like a great state for teachers.

9/18/2009 8:08:30 AM

^ ding ding ding ding

9/18/2009 9:16:21 AM

Quote :

"I'd just pay the dues and join."

From my personal perspective, most unions use part of my union dues to support politicians I, quite frankly, do not.

Quote :

"the military is basically one big union...don't kid yourself. pretty much guaranteed promotion to a pretty high level (LtCol, CDR, PO1, etc)"

At the moment, yes, but that is due to the high demand for personnel placed on the military by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. For example, the Field Artillery branch is something like 20% under-strength for officers. Supply can't keep up with demand and therefore promotions are abundant. Many corporations, union and non-union, offered these kinds of programs in the 1950s, the military just hasn't gotten rid of them. Besides, there is no collective bargaining and no threat to strike in the military. I see where you're going, but the analogy isn't 100%

Quote :

"as someone who has a brother and many friends who are teachers...those who teach in unionized states have it INFINITELY better than those in non-union states. higher pay, better care, more rights...you name it."

I'd be interested in comparing the success rates of students in union states to non-union states. After all, we don't have schools to give jobs to teachers. I found this article to be interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/education/21kipp.html?_r=1

9/18/2009 9:33:37 AM

^ He wasn't talking about student success, he was talking about teacher pay and benefits

9/18/2009 11:41:39 AM

Quote :

"From my personal perspective, most unions use part of my union dues to support politicians I, quite frankly, do not. "

That's very well possible. But that goes on all over the place. There are probably all sorts of products and services that you use, which needed some political finesse to get up and going at some point. The company that is benefiting from the sale of those goods and services may have donated a lot of money to some politician so that when it came time, said politician looked in their direction. Maybe you support said politician, maybe not.

I think it's admirable to take that stance, "this company/group supports this person (which I do not) therefore I will boycott their products/services." But I assure you, you're doing it all the time whether you know it or not.

I don't know what my mechanic, Chuck, did with the money I paid him for fixing my exhaust. He may have donated it to a childrens hospital, bought a hooker, or paid a utility bill - and I have no clue what the utility company did with it. I'm sure they support politicians.). I don't really care, he did a damn good job and charged me a fair price for the service. I'm paying HIM. It's then his choice to use that money as he wishes.

You get something from the union, the union gets something from you. It's an exchange of services for money. If you don't like how they use it, don't join the union. In turn, that may mean looking elsewhere for work. Personally, I'm not so naive as to think none of my money ends up in the hands of someone I'd rather it not. And I realize that teachers generally have it better in states with unions than those without. I would pay for that difference.

Quote :

"I found this article to be interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/education/21kipp.html?_r=1"

What do you find interesting about it? Why do you think it's relevant to this topic? Do you know much about charter schools?

- The way I read it is that Ms. Nelson went to work there, and within a year decided she didn't like some new policies (staff development days, submitting lesson plans, etc.). That's all good and well. So she started unionizing the school before talking to KIPP administration (she talked to some admin. folks, but not the top brass). She got tired of all the work involved in unionizing, realized it wasn't necessary to get what she thought she wanted, or realized she was in way over her head. So, she then talked to KIPP administration and found out they weren't so bad and that she should have talked to them from the get go. However, she had already started the unionization hype, which had snowballed, and now she can't stop it. Way to jump the gun, Kashi.

9/18/2009 2:27:19 PM

duro982 you hit the nail on the head. I lived in a very small town that had, if I had to guess, 80% of its people employed by the aluminum plant. I have read some really good articles on it in the past, but this is the only one I could find with a 2 minute Goggle search http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/06/business/at-work-different-tactics-in-labor-s-battles.html.

And like you also said, many/most labor unions probably are "good" in many aspects. But unfortunately, being in the military, there are certain organizations that it would be best if myself or my family stayed away from, and unions who may or may not want to strike/picket/etc are one of those organizations. To answer one question I saw, no, my wife does not want to be a part of this union. But even if she did, I wouldn't let her. I am getting to the point where I outrank about 99% of the people I work with. Anything I or my wife do in our private lives unfortunately will reflect on my professional life. I don't really expect most people to understand this, but it's true. Imagine if there was some big picket or protest and my wife was out on the front line picketing against a "scab", who just happened to be the wife of someone who worked for me. That would get really akward, really quick, and it's not something I want to deal with. She knew what she was getting into when we got married, and she was/is fine with it. However I was fairly sure that someone would bring it up how I said "I would not want her to join."

Most likely what she'll do is join, pay the fees, and have 0 participation. She works not because she needs the money (of course the extra money is nice), but mostly because she enjoys working with children. She gets all her medical benefits through me too. So basically anything the union would ever fight for (more benefits, more money) really don't effect her at all.

Oh, one last thing, the military is not a place for guaranteed promotions. Up to a certain point, yes. But I have seen some AWESOME enlisted guys who just couldn't make Chief (E-7) for whatever reason. On the same token, I advanced to LT (O-3) on a time-based scale. Lieutenant Commander (O-4) is not time-based, but most people make it if they do at least a marginal job, so I am pretty sure I'll be there in a few years. But after that, all bets are off. I have seen many many people not "screen" for the next level up, although in my opinion, they were pretty good officers. As it was said before, sometimes, due to the military needs, the advancement rate is a lot higher than maybe it should be. On the flip side, oftentimes when a democrat takes office, the military gets downsized, and promotion becomes nearly impossible. It all depends on the time period and the state of our military, but I can promise promotions are anything but guaranteed. And as a final point, if I or anyone decided to strike, we'd be in Leavenworth.... so once again, not very union-ish.

9/18/2009 4:47:22 PM

The picketing I've seen has never really been against "scabs." The picketing is to get the message to the employer. "Scabs" are those who cross the picket lines. I've not seen a strike last quite long enough for people to get to the point that they were crossing picket lines in droves. It usually has to get to a point that people can't go without pay anymore, so they cross. Or people who don't really need the money. I had a teacher growing up who told me she had crossed picket lines in the past. She, like your wife, didn't have to do it for the money. She just enjoyed teaching. But she didn't cross right away or always, it was just once when things were taking a lot longer than expected.

And most people don't seem to care too much. I think, because the way the laws work in these places... they can't get enough people to take the jobs and do them well enough to really displace the striking workers. It's usually not a situation where if the strikers don't come back, the "scabs" are going to take their jobs (which is what was going on in your town). The people crossing the lines are typically the actual employees, not randos. And there aren't enough of them for the company to actually run at 100% without the striking workers. It's really kind of a scripted play/going through the motions. Although, sometimes things end up lasting much longer than expected. But I haven't seen it too many times in the area I grew up in, which had a lot of union jobs.

I'd look into the local for the union she'd be in. They may not have striked in years. And it may have lasted a day or 2. Strikes usually occur when new contracts are on the table or if there's some sort of big issue that occurs. It's mostly the former. I'd do some research and maybe keep on top of things that are going on, and cut ties if you feel you need to. She can probably ask someone there too. Unions up there aren't the same as unions in the south. I don't think it's that crazy to ask around about what to expect, how often strikes occur, what's involved, etc. Especially if she's never been in one before.

There are pros aside from pay and benefits. I could go to work tomorrow and be fired because my shirt is purple. I know it sounds ridiculous, but legally... it could happen. Unions have as much, if not more, to do with the way workers are treated than just pay and benefits.

Hope it all works out and turns out not to be too big of deal. Good luck

9/18/2009 7:31:47 PM

PM Sent

9/18/2009 8:05:10 PM

Unions are very high on the very big list of things wrong with the yankee states.

9/19/2009 12:16:24 AM

Forcing someone into union is the same as a shotgun wedding.

9/19/2009 12:49:50 AM

Unions are fucked up. Great idea in the 30s/40s when workers were getting fucked, but they only bring inefficiencies to the table that free markets take care of nowadays. My dad works at Progress Energy and was promoted in the company and moved down to their Florida division 2 years ago, and every time I talk to him he's always trashing the unions down there in Florida.

They have a set contract, and if you ask them to do anything outside of the contract they won't, if you bring in even ONE non-union member to work with them they'll strike or do their job as slow as possible and end up dragging projects that should be completed in months to a year. It doesn't matter if they're contractors or full-time employees, the union will not settle for that shit. This is probably why your wife is being told she has to join the union, not because she technically has to... but they won't hire her in fear of the union workers striking if she doesn't join the union.

The unfortunate thing is that while union workers do get paid on average 5-10% more than a non-union member, this advantage is completely nullified by the fact that they spend an average of 5-10% of their work-year on strike. As in this particular example, they work at a power plant... which cannot be simply shut down, so when the union goes on strike Progress Energy is forced to bring in outside contractors who are paid way more to temporarily fill the spots. Unions also drag down the wages of non-union employees of the same business. The position that my dad fills in Florida pays 15,000 more a year in North Carolina for a area with the same standard of living expenses.

Needless to say, as soon as my dad finishes his project down there, he's moving back to North Carolina as soon as possible.

[Edited on September 19, 2009 at 1:01 AM. Reason : b]

9/19/2009 1:00:41 AM

no work, no pay.

you wanna go on strike, you're fucking fired.

that's how shit should be.

9/21/2009 7:39:02 AM

my gf and many of my friends are teachers in NYC and they are all in the union. The main advantage is that the bureaucracy in the system makes it pretty much impossible to get anything done on an individual basis. The union helps entire schools deal with the government agencies so problems can be solved. If a school isnt performing well the entire school can be shut down and everyone will get the ax regardless of individual performance.

Its not a workers unionizing against the upper management but rather the entire school system unionizing to deal with the government. Not necessarily the best system but it seems to work decent enough.

9/21/2009 9:17:17 AM