So, if you know me or are familiar with my posts, you may know that I'm a fervent atheist. I'm not hostile towards those individuals that are religious, just the religion itself. And, while I may be vocal about the issue of God (or "religious" issues) on these forums, I usually keep to myself about it in real life, unless I know my company. I'm not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable or personally insulted.

I was "raised" Christian, whatever that means. I went to church every Sunday until I left for school. At some point, long before I stopped attending church, I considered myself a Christian. I never heard the voice of God, or anything. I never felt anything that could have been "God's presence." I believed that I believed, though, which is really the foundation of any religious belief. As I got older, and encountered people and ideas away from church more often, I learned that the bible had many problems. I attempted to research the arguments, in an attempt to defend the faith. This didn't strengthen my faith - it had the opposite effect.

Now, my parents can probably be considered fundamentalists, in the sense that they actually believe what the bible says, and are open about it. They believe that the end times will come as the bible foretells. They believe that every species of animal was contained on Noah's arc. They believe in the creation story. You get the idea. My parents still attend church, and my mom was a staff pastor for over ten years.

So, today, I was having dinner with them, and the subject of Iran having nuclear weapons came up. We talk about politics all the time, but generally if something religious in nature would come up, I'd skirt around the issue or just not say anything. My dad suggested that Israel was likely to attack Iran. I said that it would be unreasonable for them to do so, just as it would be stupid for Iran to nuke Israel. Frankly, I forgot where the conversation went from there, but I ended up saying that it would be nice if we could avoid a nuclear Armageddon that resulted in all humans dying. They agreed, but said at least we would go to heaven.

And it began. I said that it's a comforting thought, except that the rest of the world would go to hell for all eternity. The discussion went on, and I pretty much unleashed my entire arsenal - the problem of evil, the bible not being a credible source, the bible condoning and supporting slavery, the bible ordering that homosexuals be stoned, many of the contradictions in the bible, and more. Their rebuttal involved pascal's wager, that the bible was "inspired by God," and pretty much what you would expect. My mom started crying at one point, and my dad didn't seem surprised. It could have gone worse, I guess.

I knew this day would come, eventually. I avoided it for a very long time. I'm glad it's out there, but I don't feel that great about it...hopefully that will change with time. Ignorance really is bliss. I posted this because I know I'm not (or wasn't) the only "closet atheist" living in a religious family, so maybe this will provide encouragement for someone out there in a similar situation. Feel free to comment or post your own story/situation.

9/30/2009 7:18:27 PM

I love rubbing that shit in my father's face when the opportunity arises. Of course, the opportunity has arisen like twice during my lifetime so far.

Unfortunately, your family will usually look at you differently and act like shitbags for the rest of your life (If they're like the folks in my family).

9/30/2009 7:24:32 PM

I also skirt the issue of religion with my family - even my parents, who haven't drunk my grandfather's koolaid (he's a preacher and did 25yrs as a missionary) nearly as much as his siblings.

I know my grandfather thinks I'm not devout enough, but I don't know whether he realizes that when it comes to religion, the only two beliefs we have in common are that sure, jesus was a dude back in the day, and that there's something "bigger" than us out there. He means it in the way Christians do, and I mean it in the "well, are we just a speck of dust in some other galaxy, or is earth really a ball bearing in some piece of equipment some life form, somewhere, owns?" sense. He prays regularly for me, but doesn't feel the need to tell me this, remind me of it, or lord it over me.

Out of respect and love, we just don't talk about religion with each other. At family breakfasts, I don't do anything horrible like get up from the table during morning devotionals or anything egregious like that, and again, this is out of respect for him. He is very much a patriarch.

Oone particular relative will try to engage me on abortion (she's a mother; I'm not. She's quite politically conservative; me, not so much. And we're both outspoken and opinionated. She's looking for reasons to think less of me, and to change my mind on issues.) She always, always, always brings religion into the discussion early, and tries to bait me on that subject as well - I think to get me to admit to being less of a Christian than she is I always being up those of other religions, and ask what place religion has on the lawbooks. She won't go down those roads with me because she's not too bright, knows it, and hates to be made a fool of (never mind what she's doing by starting such discussions)

It's something of a wedge, though. Basically, differences in theology have kept my dad and my grandfather further apart than they would have been if my grandfather weren't so disapproving. (I had waaaaay more typed, but it was only tangentially relevant, and more backstory than was really necessary.) I mean, this is a man whose children won't even have a glass of wine in front or him, or mention having done so, because he is so fierce when he condemns something.

When it comes to talking religion with my parents, we don't: dad doesn't bring it up, and if mom does, I manage to guide the conversation away pretty quickly. They are quietly devout, and hope for my sister and I to be. I don't know how much they talk about it with my sister, but because some of the worst placements I lived in were awful primarily because of religion (baptist group homes), they quickly back off in the very rare occasion that they to try push a discussion - If I say I don't want to talk about it, and they still keep going, I just name one group home.

I figure that my religion or lack thereof is my own damn business, and it shouldn't concern others. If others take it upon themselves to worry themselves over my beliefs, that's their problem, not mine. In an ideal world.

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 7:42 PM. Reason : asd]

9/30/2009 7:39:11 PM

I understand the bitterness and desire to "rub it in their face" but when it comes down to it, as cathartic as it may be in the short run, in the long term, its simply better to avoid deliberately antagonizing one's parents.

Quote :

"The discussion went on"

There's your problem, right there. Anyway, you're young yet and full of that vim that makes one prone to doing rash exuberant things. These things can be a great force for good, but they also have a destructive side. You'll mellow out with age and your perspective on this conversation will probably change quite a bit... "I don't feel that great about it...hopefully that will change with time." Unfortunately, you'll probably feel even worse about it going forward.

Now, don't get me wrong. I think it is entirely appropriate to let your parents know that your beliefs differ from theirs. In fact, I politely refuse when my parents invite me to say the blessing over meals. But, I respect their faith and don't say anything hurtful about it to them. I even invite my Dad to say the blessing when they eat at my house. For all intents and purposes, I'm an atheist too, so it doesn't bother me one whit if they want to pray to god, a telephone pole, or barack obama. If it makes them feel more comfortable, then they can knock themselves out.

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 7:45 PM. Reason : s]

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 7:49 PM. Reason : s]

9/30/2009 7:42:32 PM

Quote :

"I understand the bitterness and desire to "rub it in their face" but when it comes down to it, as cathartic as it may be in the short run, in the long term, its simply better to avoid deliberately antagonizing one's parents."

Well, I don't know about g money up there, but my father was not my parent.

9/30/2009 7:46:45 PM

is that relevant

9/30/2009 7:49:56 PM

Hahaha, come over here and tell me that to my face son.

You watch what I watched that fuckbag do to people and then you fucking give me some more advice. Please do.

9/30/2009 7:53:47 PM

Oh, I misunderstood the point of this thread. I thought it was about revealing one's atheism to one's parents.

Now I see that it is a venue for SaabTurbo to cry about his daddy issues.

9/30/2009 7:57:00 PM

I'm pretty sure if I decided I was an atheist and told my parents such their reply would be, "Who the hell cares?"

My parents rock

9/30/2009 8:00:06 PM

my parents probably realize that I'm an atheist, but the rest of my extended (and quite religious) family will figure it out one day. Probably whenever I get married and there isn't a mention of god, or a prayer, or a reading from the bible.

they'll be all

9/30/2009 8:26:01 PM

i'm a believer in "don't ask, don't tell"

9/30/2009 8:38:21 PM

my mother and i have not had this discussion

idk if we ever will

9/30/2009 8:42:09 PM

Why was the first response not

"Who gives a shit?"

9/30/2009 8:44:01 PM

TWW really is a blog

9/30/2009 8:49:33 PM

^^Because some people have, apparently, had similar experiences.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only openly atheist member of my family, both close and extended. I try to keep to myself as much as possible and avoid confrontational conversations. My family and siblings should know by now that I really can't stand Christianity.

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 8:51 PM. Reason : n]

9/30/2009 8:50:57 PM

If you're atheist why does it bother you?

That's what gives atheists such a bad name... They're essentially still fundamentalist nutjobs, except they did search-replace of "christian" with "atheist"

9/30/2009 8:53:32 PM

I feel sorry for athiests. It must be a sad lonely world to them.

9/30/2009 9:56:58 PM

To each their own. I would hate going through life completely unsure and uncomfortable with believing something just because your family believes it.

I'm Catholic. Not hardcore, but I believe the basic tenants.

But for someone who doesn't believe in anything like that, I would much rather them figure out what they do believe and go with it. They'll be much happier in the end, and it doesn't really affect me.



* Now bashing people for believing in something different your own is wrong no matter who its coming from, atheist, agnostic, baptist, catholic, etc.....

9/30/2009 10:01:20 PM

Not religious, and the 'rents don't care, but they're barely religious themselves & trending towards being even less so the older they get.

9/30/2009 10:17:58 PM

Quote :

"I love rubbing that shit in my father's face when the opportunity arises. Of course, the opportunity has arisen like twice during my lifetime so far. Unfortunately, your family will usually look at you differently and act like shitbags for the rest of your life (If they're like the folks in my family)."

It's definitely not about rubbing anything in anyone's face. It's a matter of wanting to be honest with my family about what I think. We're open with everything else, but this was the one issue that I felt I needed to hide. I don't think they're like the folks in your family.

Quote :

"my parents probably realize that I'm an atheist, but the rest of my extended (and quite religious) family will figure it out one day."

That was basically where I was at, it just hadn't really been said outright.

Quote :

"Why was the first response not "Who gives a shit?""

If you had read the post, you'd know that.

Quote :

"TWW really is a blog"

Agreed.

Quote :

"That's what gives atheists such a bad name... They're essentially still fundamentalist nutjobs, except they did search-replace of "christian" with "atheist""

Haha, no. Atheists aren't making any absolute claims, they're just denying a specific, commonly made claim about God. Christians endorse an entire immoral system where people are sent to hell forever for not believing the right religion. I'd say one group is more deserving of ridicule than the other.

Quote :

"I feel sorry for athiests. It must be a sad lonely world to them."

Not really. From my perspective, I don't see how believing in a god improves your life in any way. It shackles you down with artificial laws from an ancient time, and you're constantly held hostage by the threat of eternal damnation. That sounds like a great way to live. I think this is the only life we get, and that makes every day more valuable.

Quote :

"Now bashing people for believing in something different your own is wrong no matter who its coming from, atheist, agnostic, baptist, catholic, etc....."

See my post further up. Belief informs action, and many religions are immoral, Christianity included.

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 10:48 PM. Reason : ]

9/30/2009 10:48:06 PM

I don't have a problem with atheist's
I don't have a problem with any other religion

what I do have a problem with are atheists who make it their mission to put down someone because of their religion. Thats fine if you don't believe in what i believe...but keep that to yourself or among other people with similar beliefs. I don't walk around forcing my beliefs on everyone and I expect the same from others.

also...what I don't get are atheists who say "G* D*"

Quote :

"and many religions are immoral, Christianity included"

lol

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 10:52 PM. Reason : .]

9/30/2009 10:50:10 PM

please take a few minutes to watch this, if only to understand what a lot of christians wich you understood about them.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-825273137571541112#

9/30/2009 10:52:12 PM

This is an interesting topic. I too avoid the conversations because I really don't want to disappoint my parents. I am sure they would still love me, but I know deep down, even though they might never say a word, they would be hurt.

I am not even sure what to call myself. I truly want to believe there is a higher power out there that created us all. I find it very difficult to rationalize to myself that the universe is just a chance occurance of randomness. At the same time, I find organized religion to be quite ridiculous at times..... all driven by different people's interpretation of one book that may or may not be factually oriented. I also find it difficult to believe that any god (or God) that is supposedly a loving and kind god would ever let people starve to death, or be inflicted with horrible diseases, or go to hell simply because they have never heard his word (many religions believe this will happen). It just makes no sense.

I guess all that being said I fall safely in the agnostic category.

9/30/2009 11:01:10 PM

Quote :

"I'd say one group is more deserving of ridicule than the other."

Humility and quiet tolerance of people's personal beliefs is usually the best strategy. Fundamentalist christians condemn and ridicule atheists. Fundamentalist atheists condemn and ridicule christians. Can't you see that YOU really haven't changed at all? Certainly not nearly as much as you think you have...

Quote :

"I too avoid the conversations because I really don't want to disappoint my parents. I am sure they would still love me, but I know deep down, even though they might never say a word, they would be hurt."

Each person's situation and family is different, but for me personally, I think it is important to myself that my family knows where I stand. That being said, because it is a sensitive and hurtful topic, I go to great lengths to avoid bringing it up, and if religion does come up, I usually just stay very quiet. I won't betray my own beliefs to act like something that I'm not, but I feel its the least I can do for the people who loved, fed, clothed, and sheltered me to avoid causing them any additional/unnecessary pain.

P.S.

Quote :

"and many religions are immoral, Christianity included"

Atheists don't believe in a system of morals that would allow them to throw out that type of accusation... just a friendly FYI from one atheist to another


[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 11:15 PM. Reason : s]

9/30/2009 11:01:18 PM

Never had this conversation with my parents and I don't think I'll ever feel the need to. If they want to know, all they have to do is ask. I haven't felt the need to prove people wrong about religion since I was 16.

9/30/2009 11:11:34 PM

Quote :

"I understand the bitterness and desire to "rub it in their face" but when it comes down to it, as cathartic as it may be in the short run, in the long term, its simply better to avoid deliberately antagonizing one's parents."

I never felt this need. I was always independent of my parents in thought and when, around the time I started driving, I decided to go to a conservative Episcopal church instead of the increasingly "social" Methodist church my mom was going to, she was more than content to let me. I know it broke her heart when I revealed that I was agnostic leaning atheist but we've had a number of religious discussions and she agrees that she cannot answer my questions and I agree that she chooses to have faith. She talks about church from time to time and I'm happy to listen.


I've been much more nervous about revealing my decision to friends. I know the cliche, "if they quit talking to you they were never your friends in the first place" but this isn't an issue of what kind of car you drive or how much you make. I recognize that this is an issue close to the hearts of many and some feel that it is hard for them to be close to someone that denies their most deeply held beliefs. Trust me, attempting to gently point out the unintentional and subtle hypocrisies of their faith doesn't do anything to strengthen the friendship either. There are only two friends left who don't know where I stand and most have stood by me, but I won't bring it up until I feel the time is right.

So I understand where the OP is coming from. That being said, I think this usually happens to people who are relatively new in their discovery of "Atheism" or at least serious agnosticism, and are thus full of the forceful but ultimately shallow arguments that newly minted skeptics posses. I know I personally feel that my agnosticism does not posses near the intellectual depth that my theism did, and it will take time and experience before the rough edges are worn away.

Quote :

"I feel sorry for athiests. It must be a sad lonely world to them."

I've met very few theists whose belief in God extended beyond a longing for comfort or a reaffirmation of a societal / world view. Only the rarest exude the energy / aura / whatever that makes me pause and really question what I believe in my "soul" (as opposed to largely intellectual arguments).

9/30/2009 11:45:24 PM

Quote :

"what I do have a problem with are atheists who make it their mission to put down someone because of their religion. Thats fine if you don't believe in what i believe...but keep that to yourself or among other people with similar beliefs. I don't walk around forcing my beliefs on everyone and I expect the same from others."

I'm not going to force "my beliefs" (which isn't the issue here - I'm not claiming to believe anything, only to not know) on anyone. Unless you mean they're forced to hear what I have to say on occasion. I'm aware that you don't want your logic and religion to touch, but sometimes I just have to speak my mind on principle.

Quote :

"Humility and quiet tolerance of people's personal beliefs is usually the best strategy. Fundamentalist christians condemn and ridicule atheists. Fundamentalist atheists condemn and ridicule christians. Can't you see that YOU really haven't changed at all? Certainly not nearly as much as you think you have... "

Humility and quiet tolerance is what got us into this mess. This perpetuation of religion, which is supposed to be revered or honored in some way, has been allowed to continue because people weren't vocal about how completely ridiculous it all was. There's no such thing as a "fundamentalist atheist." The onus is on the holder of the religion. Atheism doesn't make any claims; it has no "fundamentals" from which to derive any truths.

I'm not simply picking a side at random and defending it in spite of reason.

Quote :

"Atheists don't believe in a system of morals that would allow them to throw out that type of accusation... just a friendly FYI from one atheist to another "

Uhh, who says atheists don't have a system of morals? Atheism doesn't dictate that they have morals, but it also doesn't dictate that they have fingers. I'm able to confidently make the statement that any god that would create a universe where there is suffering is immoral, and deserves our scorn and hatred.

Quote :

"please take a few minutes to watch this, if only to understand what a lot of christians wich you understood about them. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-825273137571541112#"

Yes, I'm familiar with that kind of Christian. They've watered it down to essentially mean "God loves everybody." I agree that those kinds of Christians are prevalent, and I have less of a problem with what those individuals believe. What they've done, though, is simply take out all the parts of the bible out that contradict modern morality, leaving only the sections that seem agreeable. Unfortunately, even Jesus was purported to say that every letter of the law must be obeyed. Was he right?

[Edited on September 30, 2009 at 11:58 PM. Reason : ]

9/30/2009 11:50:27 PM

Quote :

"I feel sorry for athiests. It must be a sad lonely world to them."

Is it just me or do the pity/attack comments like this really have a strong effect? I am all about engaging in conversations about anything, and I am the type to pick whatever side is opposite the person I'm conversing because I think that's the best way to really see what they believe. Normal attacks on my character don't bother me... But statements like that, grrrrr...

Quote :

"Atheists don't believe in a system of morals that would allow them to throw out that type of accusation... just a friendly FYI from one atheist to another"

That's just dumb. I am moral, I have morality, I obviously believe in a system of morals. I see that you seem to think that morality and religion are somehow correlated, and I pose the following interesting question:

If the religious man does moral things because God says he should and to please Him, then for what reason does the atheist do good things?

Interesting conversation starter.

10/1/2009 12:04:04 AM

Have you tried not being an atheist?

10/1/2009 12:05:54 AM

That would be lying

10/1/2009 12:07:53 AM

Quote :

"What they've done, though, is simply take out all the parts of the bible out that contradict modern morality, leaving only the sections that seem agreeable. Unfortunately, even Jesus was purported to say that every letter of the law must be obeyed. Was he right?"

this is not true at all, even that video even has specific examples of times when jesus said the laws were stupid. jesus was asked what the most important thing was and he replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" and said that everything was built on those two things.

and to your first point this is incomplete. there are 4 truths, scripture, reason, tradition, and experience. without reason we can not understand scripture. in the presbyterian church we say "listen now for the word of god" and not "listen now to the word of god" before scripture readings; this is an important distinction. the bible was written by man, it is divinely inspired but it was written and assembled by man and to the agreement of many religious scholars contains parts that shouldn't have even been included. the word of god is not the text on the page but the holy spirit speaking through you as you read and rely on your reason and experience to understand his calling.

i don't understand evangelism and am vociferously opposed to many of their tenants; it is not anyone's job to convert people or corner them on the brickyard with the offer of free pizza and tell them about jesus. fervent atheism is just as misguided as those people who catch you between classes and pretend like they want to get to know you but really they just want you to come hear someone speak at paul derr track.

10/1/2009 12:13:17 AM

Why do you have to be an atheist just becuase you don't believe in the bible? Think about it. You being an atheist is a slap in the face to your parents.

10/1/2009 12:15:44 AM

Quote :

"I'm able to confidently make the statement that any god that would create a universe where there is suffering is immoral, and deserves our scorn and hatred."

Here, I'll let you rebut yourself:

Quote :

"Atheism doesn't make any claims; it has no "fundamentals" from which to derive any truths."

Like I said, I understand where you're coming from... A lot of it has to do with youthful enthusiasm - all that energy has to go somewhere, and religious fervor (even atheistic fervor) is a very common outlet. Hopefully you will mature and grow out of this somewhat - there's nothing more unattractive than an old atheist who runs around criticizing people and dumping on their beliefs.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 12:20 AM. Reason : s]

10/1/2009 12:16:33 AM

Quote :

"I'm not going to force "my beliefs" (which isn't the issue here - I'm not claiming to believe anything, only to not know)"

Quote :

"Humility and quiet tolerance is what got us into this mess"

You're doing it wrong.

You're just an agnostic with an axe to grind.

10/1/2009 12:20:22 AM

Quote :

"I am not even sure what to call myself. I truly want to believe there is a higher power out there that created us all. I find it very difficult to rationalize to myself that the universe is just a chance occurance of randomness. At the same time, I find organized religion to be quite ridiculous at times..... all driven by different people's interpretation of one book that may or may not be factually oriented. I also find it difficult to believe that any god (or God) that is supposedly a loving and kind god would ever let people starve to death, or be inflicted with horrible diseases, or go to hell simply because they have never heard his word (many religions believe this will happen). It just makes no sense. I guess all that being said I fall safely in the agnostic category. "

This goes along with many accounts of what Jesus said. Several gospels noted Jesus saying his father was a loving God seperate from the short-tempered God of the old testament. Of course, all of these books were thrown out by the Church hundreds of years later and only a small few (4) were hand selected to be part of the bible. Mary M was the closest to Jesus personally, her gospel was labeled "gnostic" and thrown out as the main gospel mainly because she was a woman and tthey couldn't allow a woman to be the prominent figure in the churhc. All similar gospels were also thrown out.

10/1/2009 12:22:02 AM

Quote :

"I guess all that being FeebleMinded said I fall safely in the agnostic category. "

I get a little uncomfortable every time I visit my mother and she invites me to church (where I used to go). It pissed her off that I said essentially you go to church because you want to, not because you have to. I don't want to start shit with her, but when she keeps pressing me in a direction I don't want to go it strains my relationship with her. On the other hand whenever I visit my old man he's not very religious at all and dreads going to church with my stepmother so he understands and respects my views. My sister feels the same way as I do.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 12:32 AM. Reason : .]

10/1/2009 12:28:45 AM

I went to church with my parents on Easter Sunday a year or two ago because I knew they wanted to show me off to all their old church friends and they were hoping I might convert :-)

I knew it was a special thing to do for them and not something that they were pressuring me into doing... If they tried to pressure me into it as a form of proselytization, then I would have to decline. Participating in it would only build false hope for them and I would feel that it was too close to deception for me to be comfortable with it.

10/1/2009 12:33:58 AM

Quote :

"They agreed, but said at least we the Jews would go to heaven."

10/1/2009 12:36:45 AM

Where is Froshkiller's epic post on this topic?? Found it...

Quote :

"Hi. You're probably new to the Wolf Web. In fact, I'm willing to bet you're new to the internet in general. It's an exciting time, isn't it? I'm sure that you have been exposed to many ideas and perspectives you'd never realized existed, and you're just bursting with enthusiasm at the thought of sharing a few ideas of your own with your peers now that you find yourself in an academic environment that seems perfectly suited to such an exchange. Why don't we go a little further? Odds are you consider yourself very intelligent. In fact, you're probably so intelligent that you've figured out all the quirks and kinks of organized religion--or at least Christianity. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You were probably raised in a Christian household and resent that upbringing for limiting your personal freedoms, so it's only natural that you'd seek to undermine Christ's teachings and save others from having such a faulty belief system for their own good. Pretty cool of you, isn't it? You've really got it together. FUCK YOU YOU STUPID FUCKING FAGGOT KID LET ME TELL YOU A SECRET NONE OF YOUR THOUGHTS ON RELIGION ARE RADICAL OR EVEN THOUGHT-PROVOKING IT'S NO SECRET YOU GOT THEM OFF A FUCKING WEBSITE WE'VE ALL READ THE PROSELYTIZER QUESTIONNAIRE TOO NOTHING YOU CAN SAY IS GOING TO LEND A FRESH OUTLOOK DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT FOR SEVERAL FUCKING CENTURIES NOW SOME OF THE MOST EDUCATED PEOPLE IN THE ANNALS OF HUMAN HISTORY HAVE DEVOTED THEIR LIVES TO ANSWERING DEEPER THEOLOGICAL CONCERNS THAN YOUR PETTY BULLSHIT ABOUT THE DISCREPANCIES IN THE GENEALOGIES OF CHRIST IN THE GOSPELS? I MEAN HOLY FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE THE ONLY COCKSUCKER WHO EVER NOTICED THAT OR SOMETHING?! WAKE THE FUCK UP YOU'RE STILL JUST A STUPID KID AND WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS SHAMEFUL INCONSIDERATE AND DISRESPECTFUL BECAUSE MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO LIVE ACCORDING TO A STRICT MORAL CODE AND MAYBE YOU'RE TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY TO ACTUALLY TRY AND DEVELOP A STRONG, HONORABLE CHARACTER BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT FOR YOU TO ATTACK MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO PLAY THE VICTIM TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY "FORCE THEIR BELIEFS" ON YOU BY HANDING OUT A FUCKING PAMPHLET I MEAN HOLY FUCKING CHRIST WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS TEN TIMES WORSE GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY THIS REBELLION AGAINST MOMMY AND DADDY ISN'T IMPRESSING ANYONE WE'VE SEEN IT BEFORE YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST YOU ARE NOT EVEN REMARKABLE STOP ARGUING WITH GARY HE IS MAKING A FOOL OF YOU I SWEAR UPON THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE PIERCED FUCKING JEW KING THAT IF YOU PULL THIS SALISBURYBOY, SYLVERSHADOW KIND OF SHIT ON ME YOU WORTHLESS WICCAN PANTYSTAIN I WILL SPLIT THE TENDER TISSUES OF YOUR WEEPING ASSHOLE WITH A HARDCOVER EDITION OF THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION OF THE HOLY FUCKING BIBLE YOU THINK YOU'RE SO FUCKING SMART I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU DO THE SAME SHIT WITH ANY RELIGION BESIDES CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM WITH SOME BOOK BESIDES THE BIBLE OR THE TORAH YOU AIDS-FELCHING CUM FLAKE SO PUT THAT IN YOUR FUCKING PIPE YOU JUST BOUGHT FROM BUDDHA'S BELLY THE FIRST WEEKEND YOU WERE UP HERE AND SMOKE IT YOU FUCKING FAGGOT COLLEGE KID and that's my word."

/thread

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 12:53 AM. Reason : s]

10/1/2009 12:47:04 AM

I really do get discouraged when I see people such as the OP completely turn away from Christianity because of "religion" per se. Influenced by professing Christians who are probably not Christians at all, because they pick and choose what they want to believe from the Bible, or what laws they want to obey, or how many prayers they need to say a week to get to Heaven etc. But I'm also not surprised...the Bible speaks at length about false teachers being another tool used by Satan to excuse our sin.

I was once pretty disillusioned as well, never to the point of atheism, but I had a complete backlash against the "Christianity" I grew up with. Then recently I was exposed to the TRUTH in God's word about what a Christian life looks like if you truly are converted, and it convicted me. But the first step was believing in the authority and infallibility of the Bible as the true Word of God, which by our nature is not easy to do because frankly, it's offensive and we don't want to.

10/1/2009 1:05:37 AM

really - wait, let me guess... true christianity is about a relationship with god, not religion? kthx we've all heard it before u can stop now - aren't you late for home church or cell group anyway?

10/1/2009 1:09:12 AM

Never mind all the Soapbox-lite debating that went on in this thread already. I'm not into organized religion, find some things from atheist, Buddhist and Hindu writings inspiring, but keep it to myself.

Religion, possible marriage, abortion, and my parents' recreational drug use in their youth are things we do not discuss.
I think most families also operate this way.

It's easier to talk about...the Steelers game over turkey and Xmas presents, for sure.

10/1/2009 1:16:31 AM

why the hate? i am not trying to antagonize. and no, it's not about a "relationship with God," whatever that may mean. that's just another watered down statement used by today's watered down churches. you can't have any real relationship with God until you experience salvation, and if you believe in the Bible that only occurs from the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ, and in the from the REPENTANCE OF SIN. if you don't acknowledge the true depth of sin and turn away from it, it basically defeats the purpose of the cross. my point is that most Christians put on their church face"for an hour on Sunday, but act just like everybody else the rest of the time. i used to be one of those people. it's no wonder why so many get turned off by "the church" or "religion."

10/1/2009 1:19:36 AM

well, I personally got turned off by christianity after I thought about it over a very long period. Surprisingly, I don't base eternal decisions on my emotional reactions to average-joe "christians"

Quote :

"why the hate? i am not trying to antagonize."

You're trying to proselytize, which is arguably the same or worse than plain old antagonization.

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 1:25 AM. Reason : s]

10/1/2009 1:23:37 AM

i didn't say you did and i'm not even saying that's a primary reason, it's just yet another in the infinite many ways we find an excuse to oppose God's Law. it's in our nature.

in your case, "thinking about it a long time" is definitely another way to do that. because if we are completely and utterly "useless" because of our sin (Rom 3:10), no amount of "thinking" on our behalf is going to make things clearer, it will just skew the truth. in fact, Romans 1:19-20 basically says the opposite, that all men KNOW God's Law simply through the creation of the world and simply deny it, so they have no excuse.

10/1/2009 1:37:41 AM

the thing that really breaks me up is that guys like this will never find out that they were wrong :-(

10/1/2009 1:40:13 AM

^^ take that shit elsewhere. you aren't convincing anyone and the haughtiness about being god's bitch is bizarre

10/1/2009 1:47:53 AM

Well, this was a great thread until this bible-thumper started proselytizing.

10/1/2009 1:48:32 AM

I'll be the happiest spirit around if I find myself in hell - and I'm not being glib.

10/1/2009 1:49:37 AM

^^^^i don't know what that means. anyway, my main point here was to defend the authority of the Bible from reading some of the above posts. it proclaims itself literally as God's word and if you are a Christian you must adhere to it. for those who don't believe the Bible can possibly be that authority, you either don't know it or just flat out deny it. it will convict you if you let it, and when that fact is easily acceptable. "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword...and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart..." - Hebrews 4:12

[Edited on October 1, 2009 at 1:56 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2009 1:53:23 AM