this has to be done to be fair to... someone...

Losses to Bucknell and Northern Iowa in the Tourney at Kansas. Unacceptable, especially with this years talent.

The national title keeps him credible though... for now.

3/20/2010 11:47:49 PM

only 2-3 credible coaches in the nation right now

3/21/2010 2:02:17 AM

the fact that he didnt use the press until the very end was pretty questionable. UNI was turning the ball over like it was their job as soon as they went to the press.

3/21/2010 2:06:39 AM

don't forget he should've lost to davidson instead of championship.

3/21/2010 2:09:33 AM

he's fucked up my bracket at least 3 different times.

3/21/2010 3:02:30 AM

This Kansas team shouldn't have lost to ANYONE this year, and I'm not just mad they fucked my bracket up. You have a senior PG who will play in the league (maybe not start, but he'll get his shot at making it). A Junior lottery pick Center (no doubt best at his position in the NCAAs) who stayed an extra year to win it all. An outstanding freshman talent, and a bunch of very talented role players, most of whom could be stars for other schools. Only Texas and Kentucky equaled their talent, and no one had that combination of talent and experience.

Self did not do what it takes to win yesterday.

He's still credible for now, but the man has some explaining to do

3/21/2010 4:10:32 AM

If Self had perpetually choked in this tournament I could see the use for this thread, but the guy won it all 2 years ago and has been deep multiple times. Completely without a doubt 100% credible.

Quote :

"You have a senior PG who will play in the league (maybe not start, but he'll get his shot at making it)."

I can't really see Collins doing much in the league. He'll get drafted somewhere in the first more than likely, but he's no gamebreaker and IMO doesn't have the potential to become a premier PG in the association. He's was one of the main reasons why Kansas was overrated this year.

Quote :

"A Junior lottery pick Center (no doubt best at his position in the NCAAs)"

Disagree completely. I would take Cousins in a second over Aldrich. Those two aren't in the same league in terms of what individual talent they bring to the floor. I wouldn't be surprised to see Wall and Cousins go 1-2 in this NBA draft.

3/21/2010 11:30:34 AM

^most definitely on cousins over aldrich. you'd have to consider greg monroe and samhan over aldrich as well.

3/21/2010 1:46:49 PM

Talk about Collins' potential in the pros all you want, in the NCAA's he's top 3 at his position.

3/21/2010 2:38:35 PM

Collins wasn't appreciably better than Edgar Sosa stats-wise this year. He better be one hell of an intangible leader because there are at least a half dozen PGs that obliterated his stats this year alone. He was overrated all year long.

Off the top of my head, Vasquez, Wall, Ish, Scheyer, Kemba Walker, Clemente and Turner all have better stats... Turner is more of a combo/wing but he played point a lot.

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 2:48 PM. Reason : added wall and ish]

3/21/2010 2:47:06 PM

^^ Nah, not really.

Even with this being a ridiculously weak year for PG's, I'd still take Wall, Scottie Reynolds, Vasquez, and maybe Lucas before Collins. Just my opinion though.

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 2:51 PM. Reason : I wouldn't put as many as 410, but you get the point]

3/21/2010 2:50:01 PM

Those are the guys I checked the stats of.

Seriously, Edgar Sosa (who I think is an out of control moron) had similar stats to Collins. He is a low-rent, slower Ty Lawson. I never really understood why he was thought of as highly as he was...

I really do like Aldrich though and the Morris twins improved exponentially form last year to this. If they actually cared about playing yesterday they had the talent to win by 25... but Collins was always overrated.

3/21/2010 2:52:49 PM

Quote :

"he's fucked up my bracket at least 3 different times."

I distinctly recall two times he fucked up my bracket prior to this year, although I did pick them to beat Memphis a couple years back

Ol' Roy fucked me over the year Carmelo won the title

3/21/2010 3:06:33 PM

I was wondering when somebody was going to get around to making this thread. I had Kansas getting knocked out of the elite 8 in 2 of my brackets, final 4 in another 2 brackets, and winning it all in another bracket.

3/21/2010 3:25:40 PM

^ "multiple bracket guy"

3/21/2010 4:38:36 PM

curious why he limited himself to 'only' 5 brackets

3/21/2010 4:49:54 PM

bill self is probably a top 5 coach in the country, along with roy, K, izzo, and calipari, so yeah he's still credible

3/21/2010 4:55:02 PM

Quote :

"I never really understood why he was thought of as highly as he was..."

He's a good leader and is usually a guy that can step up and play in the clutch. He's a good scorer from the PG position, but he's probably not fast enough to play the point at the next level. He's also too small to play the 2 at the next level. He's a good, not great shooter and usually a very good FT shooter (86%). He isn't as flashy as Wall, but he doesn't turn the ball over near as often. Right now he's a better player than Wall, but Wall has MUCH more potential.

3/21/2010 4:57:56 PM

Quote :

"bill self is probably a top 5 coach in the country, along with roy, K, izzo, and calipari, so yeah he's still credible"

Self is a far better coach than Roy. He actually has built programs from the bottom up not just jumped from one loaded team to the next.

3/21/2010 5:29:38 PM

Self is a great coach, but that title will be stripped if he has more Bucknell, Bradley, and Northern Iowa style losses in the tourney. Before the season I would have ranked it

1)K
1)Self
1)Izzo
4)Roy
5)Calipari

with Jay Wright, Boeheim, and Calhoun the next 3
but right now it's more like

1)K
1)Izzo
3)Calipari
4)Boeheim
5)Self

3/21/2010 5:44:17 PM

Quote :

"He actually has built programs from the bottom up not just jumped from one loaded team to the next"

yeah that 03-04 kansas team was just horrible wasn't it

3/21/2010 5:47:19 PM

Quote :

"yeah that 03-04 kansas team was just horrible wasn't it "

Not his point.

Self @Oral Roberts
first year record (93-94): 6–21
Last year record (96-97): 21–7

Self @Tulsa
first year record (97-98): 19–12
last year record (99-00): 32–5 (NCAA Elite 8)

Then took both Illinois and Kansas to the Elite 8 in his first season in town.

3/21/2010 5:58:04 PM

Quote :

"He isn't as flashy as Wall, but he doesn't turn the ball over near as often. Right now he's a better player than Wall, but Wall has MUCH more potential."

C'mon guy, surely you don't believe this

Collins as a senior

PPG: 15.5
APG: 4.5
RPG: 2.1
SPG: 1.1
FG% 43
TOPG: 2.4

Wall as a freshmen

PPG: 16.9
APG: 6.4
RPG: 4.2
SPG: 1.7
FG% 46.5
TOPG: 4.0

So Wall has him in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and FG%

but Collins turns the ball over 1.6 times less per game!!!!!!!!11

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 6:11 PM. Reason : 1]

3/21/2010 6:05:37 PM

Right now Collins is the better player. Next year? Wall will probably be starting for some crappy NBA team and Collins will be riding the bench for a contender.

3/21/2010 6:10:46 PM

holy :carlface:

Bill Self, is that you?

Wall owns him in every single category of significance, yet you still claim Collins is the better player...

riiiiight

3/21/2010 6:13:07 PM

collins is a fat turd

if i could choose a senior guard who's going to suck in the nba id take scottie "refs" reynolds over him

3/21/2010 6:19:32 PM

I, too, will refuse to admit when I'm wrong

3/21/2010 6:21:49 PM

stats don't show the whole picture but some you left out:

Wall's 3PT%: 31.3%
Collins' 3PT%: 38%

Wall's FT%: 77%
Collins' FT%: 85%

Wall's TO rate: 23.7
Collins': 17.3

Wall's EFG%: 49.6%
Collins': 51.4%

3/21/2010 6:23:02 PM

stats don't tell the whole story:

best player on the best team in the nation

3/21/2010 6:30:33 PM

^ Yeah, I think Wes Johnson is nasty, too.

3/21/2010 6:31:15 PM

BigEgo with the tempo free win

Get out of 1965, Ribs

3/21/2010 6:31:20 PM

seriously, Wall is a great player, but right now, as a senior, Sherron is a better player than Wall is as a freshman.

3/21/2010 6:35:57 PM

what the fuck are you talking about Ernie?

Points, Rebounds, Assists, and Steals tell a pretty good story last time I checked.

LOL at anyone who seriously believes that Collins is a better player than Wall this season.

3/21/2010 6:37:26 PM

Check again

3/21/2010 6:38:56 PM

Checked again and it shows that you are still dead wrong


[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 6:40 PM. Reason : .]

3/21/2010 6:39:33 PM

you don't know what tempo free means?

FWIW Kansas' tempo isn't much slower than Kentucky's, but tempo free stats prove my point, but even then they don't show the whole story. Give State UNC's tempo and Smith might have had the Points and Rebound stats where people would bitch about him not being first team...

If you wanna look at the PG as the leader of the offense he's pretty responsible for Kansas' #1 ranked offensive efficiency. Where's Kentucky and Wall? 4 points and 8 spots back.

3/21/2010 6:41:27 PM

Comparing per game stats is apples v. oranges

3/21/2010 6:42:24 PM

and if you really wanna go into it, Collins and Kansas played a tougher schedule so if you were to somehow weigh those point averages with who they were against...

If you wanna look at pure offensive rating:

Wall: 107.9
Sherron: 114.3

3/21/2010 6:47:42 PM

BigEgo, there is a 0% chance you will be winning me over in this argument.

There is no way that Collins' performance this season has a chance of matching what Wall put up. Period.

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 6:49 PM. Reason : .]

3/21/2010 6:47:54 PM

Ribs is apparently the Joe Morgan of TWW college basketball discussion

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 6:50 PM. Reason : and he keeps editing out his little jabs at me ]

3/21/2010 6:49:49 PM

ITT Ribs shows he doesn't know what he's doing

and Self's credibility is on watch

You wanted to argue stats, and the stats agree with me.

Sherron is a better player RIGHT NOW.

3/21/2010 6:50:29 PM

Wall might not be as efficient of a college basketball player as Collins, but Wall is damn sure a better basketball player than Collins

that will be proven time and time again over the next 10-15 years

3/21/2010 6:50:38 PM

I hope they don't poach Sid if Self is canned.

^ I doubt it. Collins and Scheyer are going to be the best backcourt to ever grace Maccabi Haifa

[Edited on March 21, 2010 at 6:51 PM. Reason : x]

3/21/2010 6:51:08 PM

^^In the future? Yes, Wall will be a better player. Right now? Collins is better.

3/21/2010 6:52:55 PM

Quote :

"You wanted to argue stats, and the stats agree with me."

BigEgo, who has more points, assists, steals, and rebounds this year between these two basketball players?

3/21/2010 6:54:05 PM

no, i mean a better basketball player, not a more efficient college basketball player

i mean if they played one-on-one, wall would wax the shit out of him

i don't need to use a single stat, whether cumulative, per 40 minutes, efficiency, whatever to know that Wall is a better BASKETBALL PLAYER than Collins

3/21/2010 6:54:08 PM

If you gave Collins and Wall each one play with a given team, it's more likely that Collins will have a better outcome. That's all I'm saying.

^^But the tempo free stats all favor Collins

3/21/2010 6:55:37 PM

Quote :

"You wanted to argue stats, and the stats agree with me"

BigEgo, who has more points, assists, steals, and rebounds this year between these two basketball players?

Answer the question. I don't want to hear your excuses.

3/21/2010 6:57:17 PM

There is no excuse

Counting stats are an even worse metric of judging a player's value

3/21/2010 6:58:04 PM

lol ribs, who has the higher ft%? the higher eFG%? lower TO rate? high 3PT%?

Give Collins the number of possessions ending with him that Wall has and he beats Wall's numbers. There's no denying that.

3/21/2010 7:00:40 PM