Quote :

"MADISON, Wis. — The Obama administration said Thursday it will appeal a court decision that found the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional. U.S. District Judge Barbara Crabb in Madison ruled last week the National Day of Prayer that Congress established 58 years ago amounts to a call for religious action. In a notice filed Thursday, the Justice Department said it will challenge the decision in the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago. The notice came after about two dozen members of Congress condemned the ruling and pressed for an appeal. The case was brought by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a Madison-based group of atheists and agnostics who argue the National Day of Prayer violates the separation of church and state. Its co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor, said she was disappointed in the decision to appeal. "I would have expected something better from a legal scholar," she said, referring to President Barack Obama's background as a law professor. Her group planned to launch an online petition Thursday praising Crabb's decision and asking Obama, the principal defendant in the lawsuit, to "leave days of prayer to individuals, private groups and churches, synagogues, mosques and temples." Crabb ruled the government could not use its authority to try to influence when and whether individuals pray, writing: "In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience." She put enforcement of her ruling on hold until all appeals are exhausted. The administration had argued the law simply acknowledges the role of religion in the United States. Congress established the day in 1952 and in 1988 set the first Thursday in May as the day for presidents to issue proclamations asking Americans to pray. An Obama spokesman has said the president plans to issue a proclamation for the upcoming prayer day, May 6. Many other state and local officials typically follow suit. The Justice Department signaled it would appeal not only Crabb's decision on the merits of the case but also her ruling last month that the defendants had the standing to bring the lawsuit in the first place. Crabb ruled atheists and agnostics could sue because they were injured by being made to feel like outsiders on the National Day of Prayer. She rejected the administration's argument that "psychological harm" wasn't enough to support a lawsuit. In 2007, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation did not have standing to sue over a Bush administration initiative that helped religious charities win government contracts."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hefv3O3JxnnUE8B4RGl-25-VOtYAD9F8ANJ80

Now, I won't try to seem surprised. Almost any elected official has to at least pretend to be religious, believe in God, believe in prayer, and the rest of the bullshit that comes with it. Having a national day of prayer is unconstitutional, of course, because it endorses religion over non-religion.

We don't need to get into why prayer doesn't work or why having a day devoted to it is completely retarded. I'm more interested in the politics of it. There are a handful of "traditional conservatives" on here (a.k.a. the "we were founded on Christian principles" crowd) that are generally anti-Obama. Will they come out and openly support the Obama administration on this?

I also know that there are many agnostic and atheist Obama supporters. Will they criticize Obama for this, or will they turn a blind eye for the sake of political unity?

4/22/2010 7:04:53 PM

I emotionally support the Obama administration on this.

I intellectually oppose the Obama administration on this.

Reluctantly, I must acknowledge that my intellect wins this battle.

4/22/2010 7:15:46 PM

I both emotionally and intellectually oppose his decision to appeal the ruling.

4/22/2010 7:23:40 PM

I too oppose this.

4/22/2010 7:30:22 PM

I don't agree that issuing a proclamation asking people to pray is tantamount to endorsing any religion, so i am glad they will appeal

4/22/2010 7:37:21 PM

As an agnostic, I am in favor of a National Day of Prayer. Prayer is one of the few truly wholesome aspects of religion, and choosing to recognize and embrace that aspect while ignoring the rest is socially constructive.

Also, this kind of atheist activism is really no different than religious extremism in my book.

4/22/2010 7:55:26 PM

In the UK it's considered very "American" for politicians to openly speak of religion, and generally avoided.

[Edited on April 22, 2010 at 8:09 PM. Reason : Intellectually and emotionally, I don't give a shit.]

4/22/2010 8:08:58 PM

Regarding the appeal, my emotions are , while my intellect are .

4/22/2010 9:37:57 PM

Let's have a national day of homosexual sex, while we're at it.

I mean, we're not endorsing homosexual sex over heterosexual sex, we're just encouraging it and people can do what they want on that day.

4/22/2010 9:55:31 PM

I won't defend the national day of prayer, per se.

But just as there are things that I think it is very, very stupid for conservatives to quibble about, I think there are things that it is very, very stupid for liberals to quibble about. (And clearly here I am using the labels in a very loose, stereotypical sense, but hopefully you get my drift)

Is a national day of prayer constitutional? Probably not. Is it such a big deal that anybody should be wasting political capital over it? Definitely not. If you don't want church mingling with state, there are far more pressing issues for you to rant about. These issues also happen to be ones that will make you look like far less of a jackass for opposing.

I never even knew there was a specific day of prayer until this thread came about. It never once came up in school or in any other capacity. No doubt there will be somebody here from a retarded backwoods claiming that they were forced to pray, and maybe they were, but I have to suspect the problem is more with your retarded backwoods than with any federal decision.

A National Day of Prayer is one of those things that makes the religious people feel happy without actually having to sacrifice anything. I'd say Obama is definitely making the smart move here. Would you people rather have financial reform or the abolition of a pan-religious day that nobody's ever heard of?

Edit--Also, kudos to the OP for writing his intro in such a way that all religion and prayer were thrown out as being the most stupid conceivable human endeavors from the start, and then saying there was no need to discuss it because his opinion was such obvious fact. I guess maybe you were trying to make the thread neutral, but in reality you made it as biased as possible and then asked for a neutral response. It's a good way to make people look stupid -- insult the hell out of them, then say you aren't insulting them, then ask them to respond in a level-headed fashion. Fuck you, d5str0y3r.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 12:19 AM. Reason : asshole]

4/23/2010 12:16:27 AM

Quote :

"If you don't want church mingling with state, there are far more pressing issues for you to rant about. "

Like Texas republicans removing the separation of church and state from the history books in the state that most influences history books nationwide.

4/23/2010 12:21:48 AM

Quote :

"I don't agree that issuing a proclamation asking people to pray is tantamount to endorsing any religion, so i am glad they will appeal"

It isn't endorsing any particular religion, but it is endorsing religion when it legally should not.

Quote :

"Is it such a big deal that anybody should be wasting political capital over it? Definitely not."

Agreed, which is why Obama should leave the decision alone and not appeal.

4/23/2010 2:10:05 AM

show me the legal violation. no laws endorsing religion were made, nothing infringes on the free exercise of choice, no prayers are composed by the government. i also don't see how observing the day is in violation of the lemon test.

4/23/2010 8:12:44 AM

You just don't oppose it because it's not endorsing something you disagree with.

Let's have a national gay day.

Let's have a national muslim day.

I'm sure no one would oppose them.

4/23/2010 8:46:55 AM

You just oppose it because it endorses something you disagree with. Shame on you

We already have those things. There are parades. I am fine with them.

4/23/2010 9:07:43 AM

^^
i'm not sure what your point is, not everyone agrees with all of the observances and that shouldn't be the litmus. For example a lot of people have a problem with National Sanctity of Human Life Day.
for reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_observances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_observances_in_the_United_States_by_presidential_proclamation

4/23/2010 9:18:03 AM

If state sanctioned prayer in schools is a violation of church and state, country sanctioned prayer is as well.

4/23/2010 9:23:34 AM

the government is not composing or leading a prayer, thats what the school prayer decisions are based on

4/23/2010 9:31:36 AM

School is compulsory. Participation in a national day of prayer isn't.

Not that you're going to defend your posts, in any case.

4/23/2010 9:32:57 AM

You don't have to pray in school, you can just sit there, right?

4/23/2010 9:35:10 AM

There are much bigger fish to fry. I'd be disappointed in Obama for going after this if I still had high expectations of him.

4/23/2010 9:37:02 AM

actually i am changing my opinion on this. i was basing my opinion at first on the resolution signed by truman and missed the amendment in 1988. this seems similar to wallace v jaffree, i'd be surprised if the appeal is successful.

4/23/2010 9:37:44 AM

Quote :

"Prayer is one of the few truly wholesome aspects of religion"

What would you say is wholesome about talking to imaginary beings? It may (occasionally) be well-intentioned, but that doesn't make it sound moral behavior.

Good a thread as any to plug: http://www.theatheistbulletin.com/

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 9:45:42 AM

4/23/2010 9:56:49 AM

A devastating retort.

4/23/2010 9:59:53 AM

Honestly a 'rolly eyed' smiley was more response than your gibberish deserved.

4/23/2010 10:24:47 AM

^ There's something pretty amusing about a "holier than thou" attitude in a thread about religion.

4/23/2010 10:31:10 AM

^It was there from the beginning

Quote :

"Edit--Also, kudos to the OP for writing his intro in such a way that all religion and prayer were thrown out as being the most stupid conceivable human endeavors from the start, and then saying there was no need to discuss it because his opinion was such obvious fact. I guess maybe you were trying to make the thread neutral, but in reality you made it as biased as possible and then asked for a neutral response. It's a good way to make people look stupid -- insult the hell out of them, then say you aren't insulting them, then ask them to respond in a level-headed fashion. Fuck you, d5str0y3r."

4/23/2010 10:49:26 AM

i, for one, will continue to pray for hope and/or change.

4/23/2010 11:00:46 AM

I agree that the OP was being obtuse about calling religion stupid and then saying "nope, we're not going to talk about it."

However, Lumex:

Quote :

"Prayer is one of the few truly wholesome aspects of religion, and choosing to recognize and embrace that aspect while ignoring the rest is socially constructive."

This is opinion is objectively stupid. Prayer is worse than pointless and there are recent documented cases of prayer killing children (through medical inaction of their stupid ass parents). There is no proof that prayer helps people even on a psychosomatic level, but there's plenty of studies that prove the opposite.

Prayer is but one of many aspects of religion that our world would be much better without. I whole-heartedly agree with the original ruling and the appeal is simple pandering to constituents.

Grumpy,
It's a purely religious exercise that has absolutely no secular function. The government has no business spending a single cent celebrating it, printing it on fliers and calendars and shit, paying staffers to write press releases about it, or (if you're George W) hosting events on National Prayer Day. Get your god-damned jelly out of my peanut butter.

4/23/2010 1:31:26 PM

without criticizing religion in general, what problem could you possibly have with prayer? even it is just people talking to themselves who cares, how is it hurting anything?

the assertion that people are only occasionally praying for good things is laughable and even if they are praying to no one how is the comfort they get from it a bad thing?

maybe a palm face is a better response

4/23/2010 2:17:12 PM

didn't you know? every time someone prays, a kitten is killed

4/23/2010 2:37:38 PM

^^
See
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/681627/parents_choice_of_prayer_kills_daughter.html

and numerous other examples of stupid ass people killing their children because they prayed instead of taking them to the doctor.

-------------------------------------------------
Besides that, every single person that believes prayer can affect reality has a mental illness and is a detriment to other people. If instead of doing ANYTHING, you pray, then you are not helping. Worse still, you think you're doing something so you're more likely to pray instead of actually do something in the future.

Is it hurting anyone? Maybe. If your inaction is detrimental then yes. If it doesn't matter whether you pray or not then no. You could have jerked off and my cancer would have the same chance of remission.

So in conclusion, having a National Prayer Day is fucking stupid, unconstitutional, and a waste of money.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 2:49 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 2:48:11 PM

my question wasn't about the holiday but prayer itself

denying medical treatment is a separate issue, the praying in that example wasn't the problem, the problem was not seeking medical help.

so in conclusion you can't make a case against prayer itself, a simple "i have a hard on for religion" would have sufficed

4/23/2010 3:04:24 PM

i love watching all the liberals crying like their lives are ruined b/c of this.

4/23/2010 3:05:41 PM

Quote :

"Now, I won't try to seem surprised. Almost any elected official has to at least pretend to be religious, believe in God, believe in prayer, and the rest of the bullshit that comes with it. Having a national day of prayer is unconstitutional, of course, because it endorses religion over non-religion. We don't need to get into why prayer doesn't work or why having a day devoted to it is completely retarded. I'm more interested in the politics of it. There are a handful of "traditional conservatives" on here (a.k.a. the "we were founded on Christian principles" crowd) that are generally anti-Obama. Will they come out and openly support the Obama administration on this? I also know that there are many agnostic and atheist Obama supporters. Will they criticize Obama for this, or will they turn a blind eye for the sake of political unity?"

You hate freedom and everything America stands for.

/thread

4/23/2010 3:05:42 PM

Quote :

"without criticizing religion in general, what problem could you possibly have with prayer? even it is just people talking to themselves who cares, how is it hurting anything? "

If prayer has been scientifically shown to produce no more results than a control group (it has), then a national day of prayer promotes intellectual dishonesty. This alone should be enough to remove it from our calendars. Admittedly, I'd much rather remove national recognition of Christopher Columbus day for the barbaric ways he conquered and ruled Hispaniola. But since that won't likely happen, this is a good step forward.

4/23/2010 3:21:39 PM

Quote :

"i love watching all the liberals crying like their lives are ruined b/c of this."

Replace liberals with conservatives, see: abortion, environmental standards, healthcare

4/23/2010 3:33:52 PM

Quote :

"denying medical treatment is a separate issue, the praying in that example wasn't the problem, the problem was not seeking medical help. so in conclusion you can't make a case against prayer itself, a simple "i have a hard on for religion" would have sufficed"

Are you saying that if these people didn't believe that prayer would save their child that they would have let her die anyway? The fact that they believed in prayer is what killed their children. If they did not believe in prayer the child would still be alive.

Explain to me how it was a separate issue, when the belief that prayer would save their child fucking caused the not seeking medical help.

You call it a separate issue because it's convenient to your argument. The fact remains that without the incorrect belief that prayer does anything, more than one child would not have died horrible painful deaths while their retarded families looked on.

Now, I invite you to tell me what good prayer has done.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:39 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 3:37:02 PM

Quote :

"If prayer has been scientifically shown to produce no more results than a control group (it has),"

LOL...you are another freedom/America hater.

4/23/2010 3:38:55 PM

^

Do you have evidence to show the contrary?

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:41 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 3:41:33 PM

You bitch and whine about the lack of freedom yet you don't really want freedom. You just want whats good for you and like minded individuals and nobody else....this is not freedom. That would be called the United States of *insert your name here*

Quote :

"Are you saying that if these people didn't believe that prayer would save their child that they would have let her die anyway? The fact that they believed in prayer is what killed their children. If they did not believe in prayer the child would still be alive."

these people, you, and many others have a skewed misunderstanding of what prayer is.


[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:47 PM. Reason : yes, prayer does work.]

4/23/2010 3:45:11 PM

I'm not following you at all. You are absolutely free to pray to whomever you like. But don't force us as a nation to recognize an idea that is proven to be misguided.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:47 PM. Reason : Point me to a single study that shows the effectiveness of prayer (double blind)]

4/23/2010 3:46:46 PM

I think we should also have nationally endorsed astrology.

Because, you know, some people believe in it.

4/23/2010 3:48:52 PM

Quote :

"I'm not following you at all. You are absolutely free to pray to whomever you like. But don't force us as a nation to recognize an idea that is proven to be misguided."

1) its not proven to be misguided.
2) No one is forcing you to pray today, tomorrow, and forever
3) If you believe in all that this country stands for then you should have no problem in a person voicing their beliefs as loud as you would voice your opposing belief.

Quote :

"Point me to a single study that shows the effectiveness of prayer (double blind)"

Are you saying you need someone to hold your hand and tell you what you should and should not believe in via 'studies'?

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:52 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 3:51:33 PM

Quote :

"what problem could you possibly have with prayer?"

It provides false consolation. It corrupts the minds of the young and impressionable. It reinforces a delusion. It wastes time and energy. It is often motivated by selfishness and solipsism.

That's a short list, but it should be enough. I don't think I'm overstating my case. I'm not saying the world is going to end if people close their eyes and try to telepathically communicate with an inter-dimensional wizard. I just don't think it's particularly wholesome, moral, or otherwise useful.

Quote :

"If you believe in all that this country stands for then you should have no problem in a person voicing their beliefs as loud as you would voice your opposing belief."

Surely you can see the difference between individuals voicing their opinions and the government taking an official stance on a position.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:00 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 3:57:46 PM

^^When the claim is that talking to an imaginary friend will have real-world results, then yes.

Oh and enlighten me on what prayer is then.



[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:59 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 3:58:15 PM

Quote :

"^^When the claim is that talking to an imaginary friend will have real-world results, then yes."

? lol ?

Quote :

"It provides false consolation. It corrupts the minds of the young and impressionable. It reinforces a delusion. It wastes time and energy. It is often motivated by selfishness and solipsism. That's a short list, but it should be enough. I don't think I'm overstating my case. I'm not saying the world is going to end if people close their eyes and try to telepathically communicate with an inter-dimensional wizard. I just don't think it's particularly wholesome, moral, or otherwise useful."

Ok, so we know why YOU have difficulty comprehending the power of prayer...thats where your rant stops...so long as this country remains free the rest of us can enjoy our freedom to pray or not pray for our own reasons.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:01 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 3:59:00 PM

Quote :

"1) its not proven to be misguided."

LOL

Show me one provable event where prayer worked. Any. In all of human history.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 3:59 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2010 3:59:01 PM

Golovko, holy crap you're dumb.

Praying = asking an imaginary friend to influence reality in some way.

[Edited on April 23, 2010 at 4:02 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2010 4:01:47 PM