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Supplanter
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The choice v life debate in another thread seemed to be touching on this topic some, so I thought it might be appropriate to see where people currently stand on this issue. Maybe get a running tally going.

Oppose or Support?

*If in favor, please specify the conditions required to carry your favor

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 1:45 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 1:45:42 PM

God
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Oppose in all situations.

You can never prove that someone is 100% guilty, and if one person is wrongly executed (which has clearly already happened) then it should never happen ever again.

Besides, it's more expensive to put someone on death row than life imprisonment.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 1:53 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 1:47:08 PM

m52ncsu
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Oppose in all situations

7/8/2010 1:52:53 PM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"Besides, it's more expensive to put someone on death row than life imprisonment."


This needs to be changed. It really makes no good sense that its more expensive to run an electric chair or administer a lethal injection, than it is to feed and house someone for a life sentence in prison. Granted a lot of the cost is paying lawyers throughout the appeals process. But the justice system is full of inefficiency, so dinkin flicka.

And I generally support it. I don't know how someone would be opposed for putting say, Usama bin Ladin to death. Or when you don't put someone like Jeffrey Dahmer to death, the other inmates quickly do.

7/8/2010 1:54:30 PM

m52ncsu
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murder is immoral, even if its state sanctioned.

7/8/2010 1:56:22 PM

TreeTwista10
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the death penalty by definition is not murder

murder is illegally taking someone's life, without justification

the death penalty is legally taking someone's life, generally with the justification that they have taken multiple innocent lives by way of murder

7/8/2010 1:58:17 PM

God
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Quote :
"This needs to be changed. It really makes no good sense that its more expensive to run an electric chair or administer a lethal injection, than it is to feed and house someone for a life sentence in prison. Granted a lot of the cost is paying lawyers throughout the appeals process. But the justice system is full of inefficiency, so dinkin flicka."


Uh, the reason for that is because of what I already stated. You can never prove that someone is 100% guilty. And while life imprisonment can be overturned (for as long as the person lives), the death penalty is a punishment that you can't take back no matter how hard you try.

This is a list of 138 people who were sentenced to death and subsequently exonerated:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-list-those-freed-death-row

Had we had a more "efficient" justice system, as you'd put it, those 138 people would have been wrongly put to death by the state.

7/8/2010 2:00:47 PM

God
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Quote :
"the death penalty by definition is not murder

murder is illegally taking someone's life, without justification

the death penalty is legally taking someone's life, generally with the justification that they have taken multiple innocent lives by way of murder"


What if the police wear down the suspect until he confesses out of exhaustion? What if the district attorney willfully ignores exculpatory evidence and railroads a defendant? Is that not state-sanctioned murder?

7/8/2010 2:02:12 PM

m52ncsu
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Quote :
"the death penalty by definition is not murder

murder is illegally taking someone's life, without justification

the death penalty is legally taking someone's life, generally with the justification that they have taken multiple innocent lives by way of murder"

sanctioning the killing might make it legal but it doesn't make it moral. stop with the semantics argument.

7/8/2010 2:06:59 PM

disco_stu
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I don't agree that "you can never prove that someone is 100% guilty." I think you can be certain whether something happen. You , 30 other witnesses, video cameras, clearly identify a man walk into a mcdonald's and then blow away 5 people. Then he gives himself up to the police. I think we can be 100% certain that man killed 5 people.

Unless you think the government inserted used a clone or a lookalike to frame that man, then you're just nuts.

That being said, in cases of absolute certainty, and certain crimes against the sanctity of other people's lives, I am in favor of the death penalty. Hell, I think aggravated sexual assault needs to be added to the list of capital crimes. If there is any doubt, then no, capital punishment is not justified.

My morality is entirely defined by my understanding that human life is precious and finite. I feel empathy for other humans on this incredibly short ride. A person who does not recognize this and either maliciously takes away another person's life or maliciously ruins it permanently should be punished to our utmost ability.

If you can't ever know that a person is guilty for sure, why ever convict anyone of any crime?

Quote :
"What if the police wear down the suspect until he confesses out of exhaustion? What if the district attorney willfully ignores exculpatory evidence and railroads a defendant? Is that not state-sanctioned murder?"


Then fix these issues with our judicial system. Don't allow our police to do this shit. Make it a capital offense to coerce a confession out of a suspect. And certainly don't convict anyone if there is evidence of coercion.

Like I said, as it stands now, our judicial system is a joke, so I have hard time accepting our current system of capital punishment. But in principal I don't find it immoral.



[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:09 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 2:07:05 PM

God
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Even in that situation, as rare as it is, is killing someone really necessary? What purpose does that solve, and what right do you have to say that person no longer deserves to live? Who judges you for your decision to okay him being put to death (a rather metaphysical question)?

And to respond to your last question: You can convict someone, and convictions can always be overturned. There can be new evidence. Charges can be dismissed. People can be exonerated. They can't if they're dead.

Wait lol

Quote :
"Make it a capital offense to coerce a confession out of a suspect."


Did you really just argue for the death penalty for coercing a suspect?

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:10 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 2:08:55 PM

DaBird
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favor in some instances. it should be on the table for heinous crimes. while not 100%, advancements in DNA testing can be pretty conclusive.

some people simply do not deserve the privilege of living as a guest of the state their entire lives.

7/8/2010 2:09:49 PM

TreeTwista10
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Quote :
"Had we had a more "efficient" justice system, as you'd put it, those 138 people would have been wrongly put to death by the state."


Or perhaps it would be efficient enough to find the 138 people not guilty in the first place?

7/8/2010 2:11:47 PM

God
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Quote :
"favor in some instances. it should be on the table for heinous crimes. while not 100%, advancements in DNA testing can be pretty conclusive.

some people simply do not deserve the privilege of living as a guest of the state their entire lives."


Because experts who testify for the prosecution never lie?

And why does "not living as a guest of the state" mean death? Why not strip them of their citizenship?

Quote :
"Or perhaps it would be efficient enough to find the 138 people not guilty in the first place?"


That's not efficiency, that's honesty. And when you have a public frothing at the mouth for blood and a DA who wants to be reelected, that won't happen. SEE: Mike Nifong.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:14 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 2:13:54 PM

wlb420
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support in most 1st degree situations, especially premeditation

7/8/2010 2:14:36 PM

TreeTwista10
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^^Convince me why Usama bin Ladin should not be put to death (if we were to capture him)

ie, convince me that someone who is 100% guilty of orchestrating the mass murder of thousands, shouldn't be put to death

7/8/2010 2:15:31 PM

God
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Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

7/8/2010 2:15:33 PM

disco_stu
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I have a right to say whatever I want and the OP wanted to know if the death penalty was consistent with my morality. Which it is.

Yes, in that rare case killing them is necessary. They have forfeited their right to exist in our continuum because they have demonstrated that absolutely have no regard for other human life.

I feel this is self-evident in a morality that depends on people respecting the sanctity of other people's lives. We don't really have a sky-daddy telling us that murder is wrong. We have each other, and the knowledge that we exist for a very brief time.

Quote :
"Did you really just argue for the death penalty for coercing a suspect?"


That was a joke. Though half-heartedly. A person that coerces an innocent person into a situation that causes their death is guilty of murder in my opinion.


[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:17 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 2:15:58 PM

God
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Quote :
"Convince me why Usama bin Ladin should not be put to death (if we were to capture him)"


Does anyone truly deserve to be killed? And what does it say about your morals if you sanction his death? Are you any better than him?

7/8/2010 2:17:59 PM

TreeTwista10
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yes, i think the fact that he orchestrated killing thousands and i...didn't, makes me better than him

are you trolling? or are you just not backing down from your unrealistic idealistic naivety about the real world having bad people in it?

7/8/2010 2:19:55 PM

God
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I'm asking what it says about your morals.

You believe he deserves death for his actions which led to the deaths of others.

Your actions would result in his death.

Does that mean you deserve to die as well?

If he is an evil person for killing someone, what does that make you for killing him?

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:22 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 2:22:23 PM

TreeTwista10
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what it says about my morals, is that i value the lives of thousands of innocent people, moreso than i value the life of a mass murderer

you on the other hand, think the life of an innocent person is just as valuable as the life of a guilty mass murderer

that doesn't make any sense

7/8/2010 2:23:34 PM

God
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So do you believe that George Bush should be put to death, since he was in charge of the United States involvement in the Iraq War, a war in which almost 100,000 civilian deaths have been recorded? Does that make him a mass murderer?

7/8/2010 2:25:01 PM

TreeTwista10
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George Bush sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians?

7/8/2010 2:27:35 PM

God
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He was in charge of a military offensive that resulted in more civilian deaths than "U"sama bin Laden.

7/8/2010 2:30:29 PM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"So do you believe that George Bush should be put to death, since he was in charge of the United States involvement in the Iraq War, a war in which almost 100,000 civilian deaths have been recorded? Does that make him a mass murderer?"


I'm not a fan of war either, but given that it exists and (arguably) necessarily so, I don't count accidental deaths of civilians as malicious termination of human life. If a soldier blows away a person he knows is innocent it's not an act of war, it's murder.

7/8/2010 2:32:12 PM

Supplanter
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So far..

Favor Death Penalty: 4 (with qualifications)
Oppose Death Penalty: 3

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:36 PM. Reason : including oops]

7/8/2010 2:35:16 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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Actions in wartime are not the same as run of the mill domestic murder cases so all this Bush vs. bin Laden talk is bullshit.

Anyway, I'm opposed.

7/8/2010 2:35:25 PM

DalCowboys
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Quote :
"And why does "not living as a guest of the state" mean death? Why not strip them of their citizenship?"


wut?, because when you strip them of their citizenship they all of a sudden won't kill again?

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 2:38 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 2:37:26 PM

TreeTwista10
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btw

Quote :
"There is no universally accepted standard in the West for transliterating Arabic words and names into English, so bin Laden's name is spelled in many different ways. The version translation most often used by English-language mass media is Osama bin Laden. Most American government agencies, including the FBI and CIA, use either "Usama bin Laden" or "Usama bin Ladin", both of which are often abbreviated to UBL."

7/8/2010 2:39:40 PM

aimorris
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I'm 100% for it in all circumstances

we should also have it for trolling on TWW

7/8/2010 3:04:32 PM

m52ncsu
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I'd love for someone to kill bin laden in war, but outside self defense or some extension thereof there is no moral justification for killing and additionally my religion tells me it is wrong. It doesn't matter how evil anyone is, if it is not in defense it is wrong.

7/8/2010 3:06:44 PM

adultswim
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I'm against state sanctioned killing. I don't believe in "evil" and "good" people. I think normal people are capable of terrible things depending on the circumstance. I also think terrible people are capable of good things. Everyone is born with a different brain chemistry. Rehabilitation and therapy can do wonders, in most cases.

In all honesty, though, if someone killed a member of my family in cold blood, I would be out for revenge. Humans are emotional.

7/8/2010 3:06:47 PM

BobbyDigital
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as it is today, I oppose it on the grounds of the cost to taxpayers vs. life in prison.

In theory, I support it if there is 100% certainty of guilt (of murder).

7/8/2010 3:09:43 PM

DaBird
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Quote :
""And why does "not living as a guest of the state" mean death? Why not strip them of their citizenship?""


not what i meant...i meant that someone like Bin Laden doesnt deserve to eat or wipe his ass on the taxpayer dime the rest of his life.

7/8/2010 3:28:03 PM

God
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Prison is a lot worse than you think it is.

7/8/2010 3:42:36 PM

aimorris
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tell us more

do you know from experience, dude

7/8/2010 3:44:01 PM

God
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I would say the same thing to you, actually. Where are the reports citing the sunshine and carefree life in Pelican Bay?

7/8/2010 3:45:03 PM

aimorris
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of course, we can all say whatever the fuck we want to say

why is your opinion the only one that matters in this thread?

7/8/2010 3:47:48 PM

God
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It's not an opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWxpQ87C4t4

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/prison-nation-3457/Overview

http://www.counterpunch.org/mariner08012003.html

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2001/prison/

http://www.counterpunch.org/flaherty01272009.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/18/us/18cook.html?_r=1&em&ex=1216526400&en=0fd5af153b22e24b&ei=5087%0A

http://illinoiscorruption.blogspot.com/2009/03/cook-county-jail-staff-daily-commits.html

http://www.powerhousebooks.com/titlesf05/inprisonair.html

http://www.democracynow.org/2000/8/1/holmesburg_prison

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/01/22/2009-01-22_guards_plead_not_guilty_in_nightmare_rik-1.html

http://www.villagevoice.com/2009-04-15/news/rikers-fight-club-the-knockout-punch/

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-08-05/news/woman-on-woman-rape-claim-at-rikers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/nyregion/05strip.html

http://rondam.blogspot.com/2008/07/horrific-conditions-at-san-quentin.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n40_v12/ai_18791704/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/16/BA63776.DTL

http://www.thomasmertoncenter.org/reports_rosp_2005_2006.htm

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/12/28/MN42382.DTL

http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2006/10/09/cruel-and-degrading

http://reidscones.com/prison/

Feel free to go through all of those. And if you have any articles about how easy life is in prison, living off the taxpayer dime while sipping ice tea, feel free to share them.

7/8/2010 3:56:36 PM

disco_stu
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If you were to convince me that being put in prison for life is harsher than being executed I'd totally suggest life imprisonment for the crimes I'm currently suggesting capital punishment.

But then I'd have to ask why you're against capital punishment if you're willing to put people through such horrible punishment.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 4:01 PM. Reason : subject-verb agreement.]

7/8/2010 4:01:00 PM

TreeTwista10
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lol so God is against a (relatively) quick and painless death for a criminal, but he prefers they rot and suffer for decade upon decade upon decade upon decade in a terrible prison

we don't have the right to take a life, but we have the right to make someone live the rest of their life in a living hell

which side is more moral again?

7/8/2010 4:02:51 PM

theDuke866
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I have a few issues with our implementation of it, but no objections in principle.

7/8/2010 4:04:04 PM

d357r0y3r
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There are situations, where if I could be 100% certain of who committed the murder and what the circumstances were, I would support the death penalty. Unfortunately, I don't trust our justice system, and if one innocent person is getting put to death, that's one too many.

7/8/2010 4:08:16 PM

aimorris
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Quote :
"And if you have any articles about how easy life is in prison, living off the taxpayer dime while sipping ice tea, feel free to share them."


Please share the posts ITT that come anywhere close to saying that, you trolling fuck face

7/8/2010 4:10:13 PM

Shivan Bird
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Support on the basis of justice. Oppose on the basis of uncertainty. Overall, I don't mind the status quo.

7/8/2010 4:14:13 PM

darkone
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Why execute people when you can put them to hard labor for the rest of their lives? I say profit off their continued existence. Dead people can't be used for cheap labor.

7/8/2010 4:19:27 PM

OopsPowSrprs
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^ Just like North Korea!

7/8/2010 4:26:35 PM

God
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Quote :
"If you were to convince me that being put in prison for life is harsher than being executed I'd totally suggest life imprisonment for the crimes I'm currently suggesting capital punishment.

But then I'd have to ask why you're against capital punishment if you're willing to put people through such horrible punishment."


Because it satisfies both groups. Your bloodlust for vengeance is satisfied, because you get to see them rot through a torturous hell for 50 years. I get peace of mind because, in the event that exculpatory evidence is found, they haven't been put to death already.

Quote :
"quick and painless death"


That's certainly been debated.

Quote :
"Please share the posts ITT that come anywhere close to saying that, you trolling fuck face"


People seem to have that mentality, since they're so opposed to life imprisonment over the death penalty. I've clearly established that life imprisonment is not a walk in the park.

7/8/2010 4:30:50 PM

darkone
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^^ The rest of us have to work. I'm not going to let some fucker get a pass to sit on his ass just because he killed someone. There are ditches to be dug, crops to be grown, trash to be collected, nikes to be made, etc...

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 4:32 PM. Reason : not enough ^s]

7/8/2010 4:32:04 PM

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