the head while your coworkers are holding him on the ground, in front of hundreds of people, while being recorded on video, and only get sentenced to 4 years in prison. Oh, I forgot to mention that you have to be a police officer as well. Ladies and gentlemen, the U.S. Justice System!

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66763A20100708

Quote :

"(Reuters) - A white transit police officer was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter on Thursday in the videotaped shooting death of an unarmed black man that triggered a night of rioting in Oakland, California. The defendant in the racially charged trial, Johannes Mehserle, 28, testified that he mistakenly drew his pistol instead of his electric Taser weapon and shot Oscar Grant, 22, while trying to subdue him during a New Year's Day 2009 confrontation. But prosecutors said in closing arguments that Mehserle "lost all control" and intentionally shot Grant because he was resisting arrest. The Los Angeles County jury of four men and eight women deliberated for about six hours over two days before reaching their verdict, indicating they essentially believed Mehserle's account that he shot Grant accidentally. Juries can find a defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter if they believe he lacked the intent to kill but that his actions were so grossly negligent that he should be held criminally responsible for them. Legal experts have said involuntary manslaughter is generally punishable by two to four years in prison. It is rare for a law enforcement officer to be charged with murder in connection with an on-duty shooting. Police in Oakland, across the Bay to the east of San Francisco, moved to a tactical alert status as they braced for the possibility of renewed violence following the verdict. But civic leaders appealed for calm. Demonstrations by supporters of Grant, a young father who worked as a grocery store butcher, were planned in Oakland and Los Angeles. "We don't know if we're going to have a riot or a celebration, but either way we're going to have one," protester Cindy Delgado said outside the downtown Los Angeles courthouse before the verdict was announced. "I'm concerned about riots. I don't want to be hit by a bottle," said Francisco Raygoza, 30, an accountant leaving work in San Francisco. "Our office manager said leave as soon as you can." Video footage of the slaying shown widely over the Internet and television, appeared to show Grant lying face down on the train platform when he was shot in the back. Mehserle was seen holstering his gun immediately afterward and putting his hands on his head as in disbelief. The killing unleashed charges of police brutality and a night of civil unrest in Oakland, where demonstrators smashed store windows and set cars on fire. Police arrested over 100 people on charges of vandalism, unlawful assembly and assault. The Alameda County Superior Court judge in the case, which was moved to Los Angeles because of heavy pretrial publicity in Oakland, ruled that the jury could not consider a first-degree murder charge. Judge Robert Perry held there was too little evidence to show the killing was premeditated. Had he been convicted of second-degree murder, Mehserle faced a sentence of 15 years to life in prison. The jury could alternatively have found him guilty of voluntary manslaughter or acquitted him entirely."

Video of the incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKKQ-gzc_Yw

7/8/2010 9:06:13 PM

Why were the 3 being detained to begin with?

7/8/2010 9:13:48 PM

He didn't get shot in the back of the head. He got (mistakenly) shot in the back, because the idiot cop got his gun and his taser confused.

Clearly the guy should spend some time in jail for manslaughter, but does he deserve to get punished as a murderer because he's a careless idiot? I (and the jury) think not.

Quote :

"Mehserle was seen holstering his gun immediately afterward and putting his hands on his head as in disbelief."

The guy was in shock right after it happened. It was obviously an accident.


[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 9:18 PM. Reason : 2]

7/8/2010 9:15:57 PM

Quote :

"Why were the 3 being detained to begin with?"

Fights on the subway.

7/8/2010 9:16:30 PM

Quote :

"You can never prove that someone is 100% guilty"

-God

7/8/2010 9:16:44 PM

The video leads me to believe it was an honest mistake. 4 years for voluntary manslaughter is a heavy handed punishment, considering the defendant is a police officer.

7/8/2010 9:20:27 PM

unfortunately, this verdict has really gotten the citizens of oakland riled up to riot. helicopters circling downtown and people are pouring in. not good

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 9:22 PM. Reason : this case is about race fwiw. black guy killed by white cop]

7/8/2010 9:21:33 PM

Well they were going to give him a week's paid leave like usual, but then there would have been riots. And we all know what a mess of paperwork riots can be. It's a real pain, lots of extra work, nevermind the tedium of it. It was just better for everyone to pretend to sentence him to prison and then release him early.

7/8/2010 9:24:42 PM

um there WERE riots...

7/8/2010 9:25:35 PM

^^^^ seems like an appropriate punishment to me.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 9:26 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 9:26:13 PM

Hmm, well in that case, I suppose if you don't put badge numbers on your riot gear you could keep the paperwork to a minimum....then it's just good clean fun all around.

7/8/2010 9:28:22 PM

Okay, I actually live in Oakland. A few blocks from downtown actually, so I feel like nobody grasps what the big deal is about the case.

Oakland has a long history of racist cops and there's a lot of racial tension in the first place. Oscar Grant was detained because he looked like a thug and the cops presumed he was dangerous, just because he is black.

The reason he was tried for murder is because the city wants justice for this fuckup. In the eyes of many Oakland citizens, involuntary manslaughter is a slap in the face to the African American community.

7/8/2010 9:30:17 PM

Yes, lets ignore the fact that a taser sits on the opposite side of the belt in a different position and has a completely different weight and feel than a gun, and would be equivalent to mistaking a cylinder block for a shoe box.

EDIT: And reminder that the suspect was already handcuffed, on his back, with an officer resting his knee heavily on the back of his neck.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 9:35 PM. Reason : ]

7/8/2010 9:31:53 PM

Don't be silly. If officers on the scene thought something bad had occurred they wouldn't have quickly tried to seize all camera phones in the vicinity in a bid to prove their innocence.

[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 9:49 PM. Reason : .]

7/8/2010 9:38:16 PM

Quote :

"Yes, lets ignore the fact that a taser sits on the opposite side of the belt in a different position and has a completely different weight and feel than a gun, and would be equivalent to mistaking a cylinder block for a shoe box."

I firmly believe that anyone who ever rear ends someone by mistaking the gas pedal for the brake pedal should be convicted of attempted murder.

7/8/2010 9:59:22 PM

You're a racist.

7/8/2010 10:05:03 PM

Quote :

" 4 years for voluntary manslaughter is a heavy handed punishment, considering the defendant is a police officer."

Honestly, it seems kind of light to me given that the defendant is a police officer. I am 100% for giving most officers the benefit of the doubt when it comes to most situations, but when convicted of a crime, an officer should face the maximum penalty allowed by law. Officers are entrusted by the public to protect and serve, when they fail at that, even mistakenly, they should be punished as severely as allowed under the law.

Quote :

"Yes, lets ignore the fact that a taser sits on the opposite side of the belt in a different position and has a completely different weight and feel than a gun, and would be equivalent to mistaking a cylinder block for a shoe box. "

IIRC in Oakland, and one of the hinging points of this whole thing, officers carried their taser and gun on the same side, and used the M26 (http://taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERM26.aspx) designed to feel and point like a real gun. They changed policy regarding taser carry side as a direct response to this incident.

Quote :

"If officers on the scene thought something bad had occurred they wouldn't have quickly tried to seize all camera phones in the vicinity in a bid to prove their innocence."

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but does it occur to you that this is actually good evidence gathering?

7/8/2010 10:07:47 PM

I agree, why wouldn't spectators give the police their cameras? It's just common sense. After all, they had just executed the last guy who didn't do what they asked.

7/8/2010 10:24:32 PM

the real issue here is the use of tasers as a submission device, and that shit needs to stop. over 150 people have died from tasers, they should be a protection device only.

7/8/2010 10:27:17 PM

"Stand up or I'll taser you again!"

7/8/2010 10:29:02 PM

Quote :

"The video leads me to believe it was an honest mistake. 4 years for voluntary manslaughter is a heavy handed punishment, considering the defendant is a police officer."

Ok, go ahead and accidentally shoot a cop and see how many years you get.

They did not even have any legitimate reason to Taser the guy, let alone shoot him in the back. He was face down and restrained. The murderer cop should get at least 10 years.

This was not a situation that justified shooting anything, it ranks up there with that officer shooting in a crowd with a pepper ball gun and killing a random girl in line at a hot dog stand.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/22/fan.death/index.html

7/8/2010 10:53:12 PM

The obvious remedy here is for cops to stop getting involved in potentially litigious situations.

7/8/2010 11:03:19 PM

rules for cops killing people should be like rules for teachers having sex. any cop that kills somebody should get an automatic life sentence.

We have things like this but then we cry about a protester being killed in iran so we can go get their oil. Got it all back assward.

7/8/2010 11:07:46 PM

Quote :

"Clearly the guy should spend some time in jail for manslaughter, but does he deserve to get punished as a murderer because he's a careless idiot?"

No, but his sentence for manslaughter should be more than 4 years.

Something more like 25 with possible parole at 15.

7/8/2010 11:08:25 PM

wait - were you expecting something else in Cali?

1) They have one of the laxest penalty systems in the US.
2) When did they start carrying real guns again? For a long time it was rubber bullets only... maybe that was San Diego or L.A.

7/8/2010 11:14:42 PM

Quote :

"I agree, why wouldn't spectators give the police their cameras? It's just common sense. After all, they had just executed the last guy who didn't do what they asked."

So the answer is no, your hatred has blinded you to the fact that getting any possible recordings of the incident as quickly as possible is a necessary step for evidence gathering.

Quote :

"the real issue here is the use of tasers as a submission device, and that shit needs to stop. over 150 people have died from tasers, they should be a protection device only. "

Problem is, other forms of submission and compliance techniques are equally if not more dangerous and not nearly as camera pretty. Note for example, the pissing and moaning after that cop clocked a girl in the face a few weeks back.

That said, a goodly number of police departments and their officers could use some heavy reminders that it isn't war (99% of the time) and that they are here to serve and protect the citizens. I personally lament the loss of beat cops, and thing community-officer relationships would be much better if more of them weren't cruising around in their cars and actually walked beats and got to know their citizens.

7/8/2010 11:16:26 PM

I would have gladly handed over my phone after I was able to copy the SD card. I wouldn't want the evidence getting "lost" during discovery.

7/8/2010 11:21:52 PM

Oh, reminder that if you are a Black kid and you shoot a White cop you get 110 years in prison.

If you miss.

http://www.ketv.com/news/24173111/detail.html

Quote :

"OMAHA, Neb. -- An Omaha teen struck a plea deal Wednesday, admitting he fired a gun at a police officer. The 16-year-old boy now faces up to 110 years in prison for his role in that shooting and another. Cameron Williams will be sentenced on Sept. 20 for second-degree attempted murder and use of a weapon to commit a felony."

But, fair is fair, right?

7/8/2010 11:32:29 PM

Welcome to America where you can shoot a black man without reasonable cause and the system will cover your ass.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html

Quote :

" It was 2 a.m. on December 31 when Tolan and his cousin, Anthony Cooper, were confronted in the driveway of their home by Bellaire, Texas, police officers. Police officials say the officers suspected the two young men were driving a stolen car. Bellaire is a prominent, mostly white suburb in southwest Houston. Robbie Tolan is the son of a once-prominent professional baseball player. His father, Bobby Tolan, had a 15-year career for the St. Louis Cardinals and Cincinnati Reds, spanning 1965 to 1979. He played on one of the most-heralded Cardinal teams ever: the 1967 World Series champs. The younger Tolan is just starting to develop his own baseball career. He's played in the Washington Nationals minor league system and spent part of last season playing for the Bay Area Toros of the Continental Baseball League. Tolan's relatives say the two young men had just arrived from a late-night run to a Jack-in-the-Box fast food restaurant. As they walked up the driveway to their home, Anthony Cooper said an unidentified man emerged from the darkness with a flashlight and a gun pointed at them. "We did not know it was a police officer," said Cooper. "He said, 'Stop. Stop.' And we were like, 'Why? Who are you?'" The officers ordered both men to lie down on the ground. Tolan's parents heard the commotion and came outside. Police will only say an "altercation" took place. Tolan's family say it involved his mother. "The cop pushed her against the wall," said Tolan's uncle, Mike Morris. Relatives say Tolan started to lean up from the ground to ask the officer what he was doing to his mother. That's when the family says Tolan was shot in the chest, the bullet piercing his lung and then lodging in his liver."

But apparently shooting someone in their parents' driveway because they're driving their own SUV is standard operating procedure.

Quote :

"Prosecutors and defense lawyers agreed Wednesday that Jeff Cotton, a 10-year Bellaire police veteran, shot an unarmed man in his parents' driveway the last morning of 2008, but disagreed about how the events leading up to the shooting should have been handled. In opening arguments of Cotton's trial, Clint Greenwood, an assistant Harris County district attorney, told jurors they would hear “disturbing” facts of Bellaire police officers disregarding basic safety procedures before shooting Robert Tolan, then 23, in the chest. Tolan, an aspiring professional baseball player, spent three weeks in the hospital because of the bullet, which is lodged in his liver where it will remain for the rest of his life, prosecutors said. “They got in over their head and panicked,” Greenwood said of the officers. Cotton's attorney, Paul Aman, said Cotton fired three shots at Tolan because “he believed he was about to be shot by an auto theft suspect.” Cotton, 40, is charged with aggravated assault by a public servant. “He acted exactly as he was trained to do,” Aman said of Cotton. The first witness of the trial, Bellaire officer John Edwards, said he wanted to arrest Tolan and his cousin after running their SUV's license plate incorrectly. The mistake led him to wrongly believe the vehicle had been stolen."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/6990937.html

7/8/2010 11:34:13 PM

I should also add that I find it laughable that his defense was that he was trying to "shoot a man with a tazer who was already handcuffed in submission on the ground." That very act alone is egregious enough to warrant discipline from his department, and he was able to use it as a fucking defense in a murder trial.

7/8/2010 11:35:59 PM

^^As always, getting your trial data from a news editorial is going to be light on details. Something you failed to quote however:

Quote :

"Edwards testified Tolan “appeared to be charging or rushing” Cotton."

And of course, they could be trying to cover each other, but surely ballistics can determine the path of the bullet and therefore the orientation of the victim.

Was he (as the defense will surely suggest) just looking up from on the ground, or was he actively charging a police officer attempting to gain control of what he suspected was a grand theft auto stop?

Nah, it's so much easier to read that article and think, "fuck the police, especially white police."

Quote :

"I should also add that I find it laughable that his defense was that he was trying to "shoot a man with a tazer who was already handcuffed in submission on the ground." That very act alone is egregious enough to warrant discipline from his department, and he was able to use it as a fucking defense in a murder trial."

Agreed. That's pretty fucked up right there.



[Edited on July 8, 2010 at 11:43 PM. Reason : ^^]

7/8/2010 11:41:19 PM

Disco_stu you're the embodiment of the just-world fallacy.

7/8/2010 11:42:15 PM

Because I don't jump to conclusions of rampant maliciousness on the part of cops when I hear roughly 1/10th of a story from god knows what source?

7/8/2010 11:44:27 PM

Quote :

"Was he (as the defense will surely suggest) just looking up from on the ground, or was he actively charging a police officer attempting to gain control of what he suspected was a grand theft auto stop?"

Did the cop have cause to pull them over or did he (as the cops' defense lawyers suggest) really accidentally run the plates wrong? Why didn't he ask for documentation proving the guy was the owner of the vehicle instead of immediately insisting they get on the ground? Why'd the cops slam his mother against the ground?

Quote :

"Nah, it's so much easier to read that article and think, "fuck the police, especially white police.""

I guess it's just as easy to assume an organization with a history of disproportionate violence against non-white people acted in good faith when an employee accosted an unarmed black man while driving his own damn vehicle by pulling their guns out first thing and acting like they've cornered a couple of gangbangers.

And I never said anything about "white police". In several instances, black police have been part of problem. Nice try though.

7/9/2010 12:01:48 AM

well, the white comment was in response to God, not your comments directly. Sorry for the indirect damage.

And I don't know the answer to your questions because I don't have all the details even after reading the article you linked. Is the (or should it be) the SOP for dealing with grand theft auto suspects asking them for their license and registration?

The bad lookup story should be pretty easy to corroborate or disprove. Surely the plate tracking system has logs to see what he requested and when. Need more details. His laptop would definitely have logging.

If given proof that such logging exists and it mysteriously does not appear in court then I'll agree with your sentiments completely. Like to see proof of that happening before jumping to that conclusion, however.

7/9/2010 12:08:40 AM

Quote :

"Oh, reminder that if you are a Black kid and you shoot a White cop you get 110 years in prison. If you miss."

I can't believe I have to do this for a supposedly college educated individual, but:

1) Intentional Shooting (and multiple shots no less) > Negligent Shooting (and one shot)

2) "that shooting and another.

3) Faces up to 110 years != sentenced to 110 years

7/9/2010 7:58:05 AM

Faces up to 110 years != Faces up to 4 years

7/9/2010 8:29:38 AM

Quote :

"Members of the jury, which included no African-Americans, said they were unanimous in their decision."

How come there were no blacks on the jury? Is that to prevent bias? If so, there should also have been no whites on it... so was it really all Latinos? Or did it have some white people on it? If so, that's not fair.

BTW, riots happened yesterday... perhaps today as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/07/08/subway.shooting.trial.riot/index.html

7/9/2010 8:49:48 AM

I've heard it was all White except for two Latinos and one Asian

7/9/2010 9:11:39 AM

Quote :

"Crowds broke the glass of a Foot Locker and other stores. Others threw sneakers out of the store as police wearing gas masks stormed the area. "

Quote :

"Oakland Police Chief Anthony Batts said there were 50 arrests and he expected the number to double by the end of the night. At the high point of the protests about 8 p.m. (11 p.m. ET), there were an estimated 800 people in the streets, Batts said. "

Breaking into the FootLocker LOL ! Protesting is one thing, but could these crowds act any more uncivilized. Seems like the mishap of the justice system game these local uncivilised citizens an excuse to get some new timberlands and Nike's. Whats next, riot breaks into Kings Wheels and Auto. The cop may have gotten of with a slap on the wrist ( I think he at least deserves voluntarily manslaughter); but acting like baffoons is not helping their cause.

I can see it now....
[i] Lovette and Demario James Atwater get off with 10 years in prison for murder of UNC student body president Eve Carson. Angry white protestors, riot and break glass at local Ralph Lauren store and flip cars at the BMW dealership in downtown Durham.

7/9/2010 9:31:30 AM

I don't know who's worse, HUR or God

7/9/2010 9:46:20 AM

Feel free to chime in, BD!

7/9/2010 9:50:56 AM

Quote :

"Oh, reminder that if you are a Black kid and you shoot a White cop you get 110 years in prison. If you miss."

Quote :

"The 16-year-old boy now faces up to 110 years in prison for his role in that shooting and another."

I love how you blindly ignore key words such as "up to" and also ignore that the sentence is for two crimes.

Quote :

"Williams' plea also included a drug-relating shooting in Sarpy County. Prosecutors said Williams was part of a violent robbery near 144th and Harrison streets two months before he shot at Officer Warren."

Like most other good kids, shooting at cops and being involved in violent robberies is a normal part of growing up, right?

[Edited on July 9, 2010 at 10:18 AM. Reason : l]

7/9/2010 10:17:48 AM

Which one of these should be punished more severely:

A. Armed robbery followed by shooting in the direction of a police officer

B. Shooting a man in the back while he's unarmed and handcuffed, resulting in his death.

7/9/2010 10:19:29 AM

Quote :

"Angry white protestors, riot and break glass at local Ralph Lauren store and flip cars at the BMW dealership in downtown Durham."

White people riot when their soccer team loses.

*Yes I lifted that off some comedian, but it's true.

7/9/2010 10:19:34 AM

^only in shitty countries where people care about dumb sports

7/9/2010 10:33:31 AM

Quote :

"rules for cops killing people should be like rules for teachers having sex. any cop that kills somebody should get an automatic life sentence. We have things like this but then we cry about a protester being killed in iran so we can go get their oil. Got it all back assward."

That's a brilliant comparison, as teachers are trained on how to fuck students because they often find themselves in situations where they have to fuck students in the line of duty.

In closing, you are a fucking retard.

7/9/2010 12:58:53 PM

Quote :

"where they have to fuck students in the line of duty."

hahaha winnar!

7/9/2010 1:03:43 PM

Quote :

"That's a brilliant comparison, as teachers are trained on how to fuck students because they often find themselves in situations where they have to fuck students in the line of duty."

Someone has never been to Catholic Sunday School

7/9/2010 1:17:29 PM

Doesn't make sense for a cop to pull out a gun and shoot a restrained man in the back in front of a heck of a lot of people. Most cases of suspicious circumstances of cop shootings happen with little to no witnesses around and in heated moments of activity. The actions and response of the cop in the subway shooting, especially given the scenario, clearly looks like a genuine mistake to me.

7/9/2010 3:29:23 PM