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smc
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Bradley Manning is the greatest hero of our generation.

7/25/2010 7:04:27 PM

Solinari
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k

7/25/2010 7:07:43 PM

smc
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All documents to be made public today. Afghanistan is a lost war.

7/25/2010 7:09:42 PM

Supplanter
supple anteater
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Quote :
"No threads directed personally - Do you think the other thousand people on this site want to read some personal shit between you and your buddy? - NO. Use mail instead. "


Did you ask God about this before posting?

7/25/2010 7:10:42 PM

smc
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Update: Classified documents are now posted, and the archive is back up like it should be:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010

No more editorializing either. I will donate again.

7/25/2010 7:12:34 PM

Solinari
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they've already tainted themselves and proven that they can not be trusted.

there is a high likelihood that they have chosen not to release documents that provide exculpatory information or other positive information regarding the US military operations.

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 7:17 PM. Reason : cherry-picking is just another form of editorializing.]

7/25/2010 7:16:53 PM

jwb9984
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Fuck wikileaks

They already admittedthey cherry picked. "non-US entities" were excluded.

7/25/2010 7:19:45 PM

smc
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The US Government is welcome to release such exculpatory documents, if they exist.

7/25/2010 7:20:44 PM

jwb9984
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Double post

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 7:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/25/2010 7:20:56 PM

Solinari
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^^ The US Government has not pretended to follow a philosophy of "total transparency"

Of course, now we know that WikiLeaks has no interest in transparency either.

7/25/2010 7:23:42 PM

smc
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You take whatever you can get.

7/25/2010 7:25:46 PM

smc
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Just finished skimming it...the waste is astounding.

US killed 60 civilians in airstrike.

7/25/2010 7:36:37 PM

GeniuSxBoY
Suspended
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When you're playing a game of chess. It is not wise to be transparent.

In fact, it's stuuuupid to let your opponent know your mistakes and your future moves during gameplay. You can make mistakes and still win.

7/25/2010 7:51:07 PM

smc
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/datablog/interactive/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-events

"Man killed in his home by soldiers because he had a flashlight in his hand. Man, wife, two children and sheep killed as they ran from us forces." The stories go on and on, and are heartbreaking and regrettable...

But not releasing this information to the media under the guise of protecting troops...is corrupt and evil. Just like the government we've established there.

7/25/2010 7:52:00 PM

HaLo
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fail
Quote :
"Error

The file you requested cannot be found.
After 10 seconds you will be redirected to the main page"

7/25/2010 7:56:40 PM

smc
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http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5716206/Afghan_War_Diary_2010_CSV_Format

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 8:45 PM. Reason : .]

7/25/2010 8:19:55 PM

Solinari
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7/25/2010 8:25:14 PM

smc
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

7/25/2010 8:42:20 PM

indy
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"But not releasing this information to the media under the guise of protecting troops...is corrupt and evil. Just like the government we've established there."

Like father, like son.

7/25/2010 8:57:33 PM

Nighthawk
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"But not releasing this information to the media under the guise of protecting troops...is corrupt and evil. Just like the government we've established there."


Amen. The Taliban were so peace loving and cared only for the people. We should have just left them in control. They were very sensitive to the rights of women, minorities, etc. DOWN WITH USA AM I RITE?

7/25/2010 10:32:41 PM

moron
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^ wow you missed the point horribly.

Just because the Taliban was not a good gov. doesn't mean it's okay for us to also support a new, different corrupt government.

The choices aren't corrupt Taliban gov. or corrupt US backed gov.. It's like this whole thing is a game to you, and if your side's not winning, you must be losing. The reality is that it's a far more complex situation than the black/white scenario you seem to be presenting, and you don't do anyone any good by being a reactionary instead of trying to honestly understand what's going on.

It's thinking like that why our media is so terrible and caters to the lowest common denominator.

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 10:40 PM. Reason : softer]

7/25/2010 10:38:17 PM

Solinari
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really we should have just bombed the motherfuck out of them in retribution for 9/11 and left it at that.

And when I say, "bombed the motherfuck" I mean, no more buildings left standing. Anywhere.

7/25/2010 10:40:12 PM

moron
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^ that's antisemitic

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 10:41 PM. Reason : ]

7/25/2010 10:41:31 PM

Lumex
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I don't care if they cherry-pick, as long as they don't intentionally exclude context.

7/25/2010 11:14:29 PM

smc
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Speaking of reporting bias:

Guardian Headlines:
Massive leak of secret files exposes the real war in Afghanistan
Hundreds of civilians killed by coalition troops
Covert unit hunts leaders for 'kill or capture'
Steep rise in Taliban bomb attacks on Nato

New York Times Headlines:
Pakistan Aids Insurgency in Afghanistan, Reports Assert ---- Military documents reflect deep suspicions among U.S. officials that Pakistan’s spy service has for years guided the Afghan insurgency with a hidden hand.
View is More Bleak than Official Portrayal
Strategic Plans Spawned Bitter End for a Lonely Outpost(our poor troops were left unsupported and surrounded)

[Edited on July 25, 2010 at 11:33 PM. Reason : .]

7/25/2010 11:31:44 PM

jwb9984
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Quote :
"The choices aren't corrupt Taliban gov. or corrupt US backed gov"


Actually, yeah, it is that simple, and those are the choices. The allegiances there are of course very complex, but the situation as whole is not. Put simply, if we were to pack it up and leave today, the Taliban would begin to seriously destabilize the country (more than it is already). Without our backing the Karzai government has approximately 0% chance of preventing that from happening right now. The ISI would no doubt see the writing on the wall and aid the Taliban further in regaining complete control again with a quickness.

The corrupt Karzai government that we back now is pretty much our only hope.


[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

7/26/2010 12:35:01 AM

smc
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In that case let's go with the Taliban because they cost less.

7/26/2010 12:42:52 AM

jwb9984
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in the short run, perhaps.

That was the mindset here after the Soviets pulled out as well.

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 12:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/26/2010 12:44:56 AM

rjrumfel
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if trash like wikileaks was around 70 years ago, Europe would be a collection of German states right now

7/26/2010 4:26:10 AM

smc
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Or the deaths of six million jews could have been exposed and prevented.

7/26/2010 7:20:50 AM

lazarus
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Quote :
"In that case let's go with the Taliban because they cost less."


Just so we're clear about where smc stands: He wants the United States to throw its support behind a group of theocratic fascists that treat women like chattel, disfigure schoolgirls (while preaching hatred and abject superstition to the boys), massacres civilians by the thousands in fits of suicidal hysteria, provide safe haven for international jihadist groups, and outlaws or destroys all forms of cultural deemed un-Islamic, just to name a few of their defining characteristics. In other words, smc thinks we should support one of the most anti-liberal, anti-progressive, anti-humanitarian regimes on the planet, "because they cost less."

And thus behold how much in common mindless "progressives" like smc have with the most insular, calculating, even sadistic elements of the right wing. One wants to "[bomb] the motherfuck out of them," the other merely condemns them to perpetual slavery.

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 9:48 AM. Reason : ]

7/26/2010 9:38:29 AM

ThatGoodLock
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i dont think he was saying we should throw our support their way, i think he was just saying we should get out of the country's backpocket altogether

why did we go to war with the Taliban in the first place? Al Qaeda. They severed ties completely in 2008. Why haven't we found Bin Laden yet? I don't know but I would honestly be fine with the Taliban taking back over their country (and it is THEIR country, not ours) if it means they give up Bin Laden and any remaning Al Qaeda operations they know about

i don't think the US should be in any war that isn't backed equally (and i mean with troops) from the rest of the superpowers. if someone asks "don't you feel bad about those people left there?" and i'll say "about as bad as apparently the other 99% of the WORLD who are doing nothing as well".

7/26/2010 9:56:32 AM

SkiSalomon
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"from the rest of the superpowers"


And who might those be?

7/26/2010 10:04:00 AM

lazarus
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Quote :
"and it is THEIR country, not ours"


The Taliban does not own the country of Afghanistan. Afghanistan belongs to Afghans.

Quote :
"if someone asks "don't you feel bad about those people left there?" and i'll say "about as bad as apparently the other 99% of the WORLD who are doing nothing as well""


If knowing you have the moral integrity of China makes you feel good about yourself, then by all means, set the bar for yourself as low as you like. Just don't set it that low for the rest of us.

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 10:15 AM. Reason : ]

7/26/2010 10:14:23 AM

Solinari
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I mean, but at the same time, setting the bar at perfection just so you have an excuse to bash the US doesn't really work either.

7/26/2010 10:35:55 AM

lazarus
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Of course not.

7/26/2010 10:42:18 AM

hooksaw
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U.S.: Afghan war leaks put lives 'at risk'
WikiLeaks founder: 15,000 more U.S. military documents are being vetted
updated less than 1 minute ago


Quote :
"The White House, Britain and Pakistan have all condemned the online whistle-blowing group's release Sunday of the classified documents, one of the largest unauthorized disclosures in military history. The Afghan government in Kabul said it was 'shocked' at the release but insisted most of the information was not new."


http://tinyurl.com/278gjux

7/26/2010 11:14:46 AM

smc
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I hate it when not new information puts lives at risk.

7/26/2010 11:48:30 AM

DaBird
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while I think that wikileaks are nothing but a group of self-interested, biased, loony-bin scoundrels, I am glad they exist and I am glad there are other organizations out there like them.

there is nothing wrong with having the Pentagon look over its shoulder and have their hand called occasionally. it should do nothing but make our soldiers that much more accountable as well as help find leaks within the military that could do real harm if unchecked in the future.

7/26/2010 11:53:32 AM

ThatGoodLock
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Quote :
"The Taliban does not own the country of Afghanistan. Afghanistan belongs to Afghans."


and they're not mutually exclusive either. i meant the taliban who are there to stay are clearly afghans themselves or have immigrated there.

Quote :
"If knowing you have the moral integrity of China makes you feel good about yourself"


i'm going to assume your morals developed during your time here in the United States and therefore you have no basis to make a claim of superiority versus someone whose morals developed in all their time in China, that's exactly what the fucking problem is with the war. if you're going to make such a claim then why not just advocate the COMPLETE takeover of Afghanistan as the 51st state conforming to all of our great morals here in America if that's what we're there to do. They have different morals than we do. Different, not better or worse.

Either a country is free to make it's own decisions or it will die trying. This is a terrible analogy but I can't think of a proper example but Persia isn't on any current map last time I checked. The last time there was a conflict there no outside nationstate tried to prop up Persia and make it appear as if the country is currently being managed by it's own people. Someone won that battle and said this is now Iran. If there's a change of management, there should be a name change. We've stopped short of changing Afghanistan to something else completely different because it would be an act of power projection not seen since, ironically, the Soviet Union perhaps. How are we showing countries that we are a democratic nation if we impose our morals on others by acts of war?

Quote :
"And who might those be?"


I believe the list of superpowers is
US
Russia
China
India
EU
and Brazil (Really? Hmm didn't know that)

If the US is the only country or the country doing 90% of a particular foreign war, then it probably was not a "global concern" OR it could be that more evidence was needed in order to gain assistance. Either way, why would we take such matters completely into our own hands? Probably because we thought we could gain something of value in the process (alot of somethings that are deposited in the ground apparently).

7/26/2010 12:05:51 PM

jwb9984
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Look, we often undertake foreign operations under the guise of defending human rights, promoting democracy, etc, all of which are noble causes and we certainly try to actually adhere to those goals. And it's great if other countries want to hop onboard.

But at the end of the day, the president, the military, intelligence services, the state department, etc. have one objective. That is to take actions that serve our country's interests. Not China's or Brazil's.

In Afghanistan, you had an oppressive regime which happened to also harbor a group of terrorists and their leadership that violently attacked us, multiple times, killing thousands of our citizens. It was and still is in our country's interest to prevent them from having that safe haven again. And by the way maybe we can remove some of the most oppressive, misogynistic, violent scum on earth from power. It's a great talking point, accusing the US of wanting to pilfer some poor brown people's resources. But this just isn't the case in Afghanistan.

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 12:41 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 12:44 PM. Reason : .]

7/26/2010 12:39:57 PM

ThatGoodLock
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Quote :
"It's a great talking point, accusing the US of wanting to pilfer some poor brown people's resources. But this just isn't the case in Afghanistan."


true or false: the US will have nothing absolutely to do with the extraction of said recently discovered resources

if you answer false, then you're a hypocrite because even if the US didnt know about the deposits when we went in, we sure as hell do now and you just said it's not the case that we would want a piece of that pie. if you answer true, and it happens to be the case, i will literally hand you $100 cash. easiest money you'll ever make. or that you'll never make. definitely one or the other.

7/26/2010 1:05:02 PM

Solinari
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If they were white people, would you feel better about us taking their resources?

7/26/2010 1:07:28 PM

lazarus
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Quote :
"i'm going to assume your morals developed during your time here in the United States and therefore you have no basis to make a claim of superiority versus someone whose morals developed in all their time in China"


My morals are not dependent on geography. And, of course, I was referring to the morality of the Chinese government, not the Chinese people, many of whom share exactly my sense of what constitutes a morally legitimate government. You may be surprised to learn that the same conditions that are conducive to human flourishing in the United States are in fact the same conditions that are conducive to human flourishing everywhere, even on the other side of the globe.

If you want to pretend that treating women like sex slaves and treating them as equal members of society are potential moral equivalents, depending on where one is born, then fine. But one wonders why, if you're that much of a relativist, you bother taking a position on anything at all.

[Edited on July 26, 2010 at 1:33 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2010 1:22:11 PM

smc
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Lots of assholes do horrible things all over the world, there's not much I can do about that.

I'm more concerned with the ones that do horrible things in my name with my money.

7/26/2010 1:54:40 PM

hooksaw
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Julian Assange, founder of WikiLeaks, also formed the group International Subversives.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38413617/ns/technology_and_science-security/

Yeah, I'm sure this guy has the United States' best interests at heart.

7/26/2010 1:59:40 PM

smc
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America deserves to be subverted.

7/26/2010 2:00:41 PM

Solinari
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I'm gonna have a good chuckle whenever he mysteriously disappears.

7/26/2010 2:01:37 PM

smc
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I'm going to weep for mankind. But he's as good as dead. America is lost.

7/26/2010 2:03:32 PM

hooksaw
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^^^ And this is one of the big problems with these leaks and the attitude of some about them here and elsewhere. So, no other countries should have secret documents leaked? How about China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and so on?

7/26/2010 2:06:55 PM

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