http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/how-polling-places-can-affect-your-vote-20318/

Quote :

"In a 2008 paper published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, three researchers from the Stanford Graduate School of Business analyzed the 2000 general election in Arizona, which included an initiative to raise the state sales tax to support education. In the state’s slightly more than 2,000 precincts, the researchers found that 40 percent of votes were cast in churches, 26 percent in schools, 10 percent in community centers and 4 percent each in apartment complexes and government centers. The researchers suspected voters who had to walk by classroom doors or rows of lockers to cast their ballot would be more likely to vote for the school-funding measure. The numbers showed their hunch was right: “People who voted at schools were more likely to support raising taxes to fund education (55.0 percent) than people who voted at other polling locations (53.09 percent).” A follow-up laboratory experiment confirmed their theory that the voters had been “primed” with the idea of schooling. Participants shown images of a school were more likely to support increased education funding than those who had seen photos of a church. In contrast, those who viewed the house of worship were more likely to support an initiative to limit stem-cell research — a favorite issue of the religious right."

What kind of locations have you voted at?

I've voted at a Park, a School, a Church, a Museum, and at a Courthouse that I can think of off hand.

I've never really paid much thought to how churches get involved as polling places. I wonder if the "Mosque at Ground Zero" will ever be someones required voting site?

8/23/2010 2:34:17 PM

Quote :

"People who voted at schools were more likely to support raising taxes to fund education (55.0 percent) than people who voted at other polling locations (53.09 percent)"

Is that even a statistically significant difference?

I've voted at the community or art center or whatever it is at Pullen Park, and at a school. I can't imagine the location affecting my vote, but then again I normally make my decisions before I arrive. For minor positions or issues I usually do a little research beforehand and make a cheat sheet to bring in with me.

8/23/2010 2:46:18 PM

Currently voting at a school. In the past, I've voted in a church and an apartment complex.

Did the study control for things like the demographics of the communities these polling stations serve? The types of protesters waiting outside the polls? While the lab test is certainly intriguing, I don't think it alone is conclusive. In addition, the SC "real world" example they cited seems to me a small enough difference to chalk up to chance.

The last thing I want to hear is follow on news articles saying we need to shut down polling stations at houses of worship because it impacts people's voting patterns and thus violates separation of church and state. There aren't enough public spaces large enough to handle voting, and as the study pointed out, the impact of shutting down polling locations on voter turnout is far greater. That, or we can go all mailed ballots.

8/23/2010 2:53:51 PM

Quote :

"I've never really paid much thought to how churches get involved as polling places"

They shouldn't be.
Also, judges shouldn't sentence drug offenders to attend [religious] 12-step programs, often at churches.

There are few things that bother me more about this country than the combination of:
(1) Our complete failure to separate church and state.
(2) Religious people's tolerance, or even advocacy for (1).

8/23/2010 3:02:09 PM

Quote :

"or we can go all mailed ballots"

The article kind of went for that route mentioning the positive, but not amazing effects of using more vote by mail and early voting in terms of increasing voter satisfaction, voter turn out, and lowering administrative costs.

8/23/2010 3:18:28 PM

If the idea is that someone is going to change their vote because of the location of the polling place, that's extremely disheartening. I would hope that the average American voter isn't that fickle. Then, I remember that we live in the United States, and some people probably can be manipulated that easily. I would rather polling only occur in publicly funded institutions, such as government buildings, schools, and libraries. I shouldn't be forced to enter a place of worship in order to vote. There's enough government buildings that space shouldn't be an issue.

8/23/2010 3:36:28 PM

Quote :

"I shouldn't be forced to enter a place of worship in order to vote."

8/23/2010 3:38:14 PM

Quote :

"If the idea is that someone is going to change their vote because of the location of the polling place, that's extremely disheartening. "

I think this notion is especially foreign to those of us who are soap box regulars, and who are engaged in politics and taking part in our democracy in a more active and consistent way than those who only tune in long enough to vote in the more interesting elections that get the most news coverage.

Quote :

"I would rather polling only occur in publicly funded institutions, such as government buildings, schools, and libraries."

City halls/county seats would also seem to be fairly ubiquitous too.

8/23/2010 4:21:09 PM

Yet as the article points out, if we vote in our local libraries, then the dangerous library clique is going to have an advantage each time their bond referendums come up to vote. Same with the education lobby in schools, etc. I guess the only thing that would solve this is to eliminate in-person poll voting for mail-in ballots all together.

8/23/2010 4:49:07 PM

Quote :

"is going to have an advantage each time ... the only thing that would solve this is to eliminate in-person poll voting for mail-in ballots all together."

^I think someone is drinking from the USPS kool-aid a little to heavily. You just want us to better fund the USPS don't you?

8/23/2010 5:03:34 PM

Quote :

"I shouldn't be forced to enter a place of worship in order to vote."

Unless I'm mistaken, you're not -- early and absentee voting opportunities are available throughout, yeah?

Quote :

"There's enough government buildings that space shouldn't be an issue."

There probably are. Unfortunately government buildings have a tendency to be busy doing their jobs on Tuesdays. I'd rather not clog up the fire or police stations, for example, and if we add any more crowds to the DMV it'll explode. Other municipal buildings tend to be congregated, too -- we've got a shit ton of government buildings in downtown Raleigh but if people gotta drive there from Wake Forest or Garner or even Cary, a lot will just stay home.

Schools usually work because all you have to shut down is the gym -- although I admit I've always found it odd that we go out of our way to keep strangers away from schoolchildren until it's time to vote. But there's still a limited amount of schools, not that well distributed. Libraries are even less common.

In my hometown, which is very small, you'd have to drive quite a ways to get to a government building larger than a post office that could, at best, house one voting booth and a registration table. Churches, however, are all over the place.

Quote :

"City halls/county seats would also seem to be fairly ubiquitous too."

Counties are big places, and not every town has a city hall.

8/23/2010 6:56:05 PM

Quote :

"Schools usually work because all you have to shut down is the gym -- although I admit I've always found it odd that we go out of our way to keep strangers away from schoolchildren until it's time to vote. But there's still a limited amount of schools, not that well distributed"

I think schools necessarily have better distribution than a lot of other government buildings. I'd also point out that not all schools are anti-public. The school near where I used to work was also a public library.

Quote :

"I'd rather not clog up the fire or police stations"

I've seen voting at fire stations done with no visible interruptions to fire safety services (never voted at one myself, but I've poll tended when working for a campaign which entails standing there much longer/observing more than one would just by voting).

Lets face it, voting would have to be a lot better/higher in this country for it to clog up or shut down public facilities.

Quote :

"Counties are big places"

I agree, I was just throwing out there another type of possible public facility that could be used to expand the list of town halls, county seats, schools, museums, galleries, park buildings, libraries, fire stations, community centers, senior centers, visitors centers, post offices, some social services buildings, and courthouses etc.

8/23/2010 7:25:30 PM

there should be an election day holiday every november and they should just do municipal/state elections then as well.

8/23/2010 8:54:41 PM

I find this whole suggestion silly because the premise of the entire article is that the voting place can prime a person to vote in favor of an initiative that favors a particular facility, and while people seem to insist that we need to drive polling places out of houses of worship, they seem okay moving them to public buildings that probably have on a more regular basis many more voter initiatives that will impact them (bonds for various civil buildings like libraries and fire houses, education policy referendums, courthouse elections, etc.).

Also, the article clearly states that the number of polling stations and location have a significant impact on voter participation, and I don't believe that there are enough government buildings to serve the communities. The buildings that are sufficient such as fire departments with ample parking, schools and community centers are usually already pressed into service for polling centers, and many of the other buildings like state, county, and Federal buildings tend to be clustered together in downtown. I think most local governments rely upon houses of worship as polling centers because they've already tapped the myriad of civil buildings that can handle an election without significant disruption, and for better or worse, the nation's churches, synagogues, temples and mosques are the next available set of public space available that are spread out amongst the neighborhoods. I would rather use these houses of worship to keep up voter participation than ban them entirely and hurt voter participation because of one study that hints at a possible correlation.

8/24/2010 11:08:57 AM

Quote :

"that probably have on a more regular basis many more voter initiatives that will impact them"

Maybe....

But it's worse with having voting in places of worship, what with God looking over your shoulder and all...

8/24/2010 11:15:14 AM

Quote :

""I shouldn't be forced to enter a place of worship in order to vote.""

this sounds like the homophobe logic...

are you afraid you might get religous cooties?
it's just a building for crying out loud - many times seperate from the actual santuary and is nothing more than a gym or fellowship hall.

Quote :

"Participants shown images of a school were more likely to support increased education funding than those who had seen photos of a church. In contrast, those who viewed the house of worship were more likely to support an initiative to limit stem-cell research — a favorite issue of the religious right.""

how does seeing a picture of a church turn you into a promoter of the religious right?

Quote :

"“People who voted at schools were more likely to support raising taxes to fund education (55.0 percent) than people who voted at other polling locations (53.09 percent).” "

Breaking news! people that live near schools (ie that is their polling place) might be there because they have children of school age and a vested intrest in education at that point in their life.

8/24/2010 11:17:13 AM

Quote :

"But it's worse with having voting in places of worship, what with God looking over your shoulder and all..."

Versus unhappy police officers staring you down as you go in to vote on a bond to fund their new radio system?

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 11:20 AM. Reason : I :heart: emotocons]

8/24/2010 11:19:18 AM

Quote :

"Breaking news! people that live near schools (ie that is their polling place) might be there because they have children of school age and a vested intrest in education at that point in their life."

I thought the same thing too, until I got to this part:

"A follow-up laboratory experiment confirmed their theory that the voters had been “primed” with the idea of schooling. Participants shown images of a school were more likely to support increased education funding"

^It might just be my experience, but I've never witnessed anyone voting at a police station. I've seen fire stations and lots of other public buildings, but not police stations. That said, how many police stations are communities likely to have? The article suggests that priming is a real, but limited issue that doesn't sway much of the vote. There is a wide enough variety of public buildings, and not as much duplication in the buildings, such that they aren't priming a lot of people in the same direction it would seem.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 11:27:03 AM

Quote :

"I think schools necessarily have better distribution than a lot of other government buildings."

I'm sure they do, but back home I still live half an hour away from one vs. about five minutes from a church. The church presents me with a tangible, measurable convenience, while it only inconveniences d357r0y3r in the since that -- it was so well put -- he will get "religious cooties."

Quote :

"I agree, I was just throwing out there another type of possible public facility that could be used to expand the list of town halls, county seats, schools, museums, galleries, park buildings, libraries, fire stations, community centers, senior centers, visitors centers, post offices, some social services buildings, and courthouses etc."

Cute. Great if you live in a decent size city. You'd be astonished how few museums and social service buildings there are in rural NC.

Come to that, publicly-funded museums get thin on the ground outside of Raleigh, and based on the premise of this article you should very strongly oppose voting in social service buildings. I've had to take people to the welfare office before. Imagine voters seeing those places right before they cast their ballots. Republicans would win every office from President down to dog catcher. You may rest assured it would have more impact on people than a fellowship hall.

Quote :

"I've seen voting at fire stations done with no visible interruptions to fire safety services"

Well, your one experience is enough for me to say, "Fuck it, this will never in any way interfere with their ability to save someone's home or life."

---

Now just to clarify before someone gets my shit all twisted: When it is reasonable and convenient to use public buildings they should be used first. I would be angry if a church was right next to a school with similar facilities but the church was the polling place. But when it isn't reasonable and convenient, I see no good reason to oppose using churches or other private entities with the capacity to handle it and the willingness to do so.

8/24/2010 1:55:15 PM

Quote :

"Fuck it, this will never in any way interfere with their ability to save someone's home or life."

Quote :

"Cute. Great if you live in a decent size city. You'd be astonished how few museums and social service buildings there are in rural NC."

I'm not one who is advocating any immediate end to the use of churches. Surry County NC ain't the most urban place in the world to grow up, but I still think of plenty of public facilities. My only point in building the list was to show there are more public buildings than one might initially think.

Quote :

"When it is reasonable and convenient to use public buildings they should be used first. I would be angry if a church was right next to a school with similar facilities but the church was the polling place. But when it isn't reasonable and convenient, I see no good reason to oppose using churches or other private entities with the capacity to handle it and the willingness to do so."

We're basically in agreement here.

I think as time goes on efforts should be made to move more towards public facilities being used where possible, and that voting should be a consideration in future public facility design/location when possible. And as long as religious facilities are being used no preference should be given to one religion over another even if that means a fundamentalist christian is required to vote in a mosque (not that I've heard anything to make me think all religious centers aren't given fair treatment in this regard, I'm just saying it should be equal opportunity).

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 3:55 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 3:46:29 PM

I vote at the fire department every year, now someone tell me which candidate supports arson so these guys can work more

8/24/2010 4:01:52 PM

As anti-religion as I am, I for some reason have no problem voting in a church.

Maybe if the people running the event were preaching or something, but usually it's just a nice, air conditioned building with a lot of space to set up booths.

8/24/2010 4:59:33 PM

^ It's really about promoting people of a particular religion to vote over others. I guess the thinking is, if you locate a polling booth in a church, that Christians will be more comfortable (and more likely) to vote there, due to familiarity with the location and other factors.

8/24/2010 5:01:59 PM

^there's the old homo arguement again...

if you are not a christian then the brick and mortar of that particular building is somehow infected with religous cooties that make it less comfortable than the brick and mortar down the street.

8/24/2010 5:07:40 PM

Quote :

"It's really about promoting people of a particular religion to vote over others. I guess the thinking is, if you locate a polling booth in a church, that Christians will be more comfortable"

I guess. Still seems a bit silly for anyone to get their panties in a wad over. Since they generally use fellowship halls we're really just talking about a gym with a cross and maybe some Jesus pictures. Hell, you could probably ask them to take most of that stuff down for the day.

8/24/2010 5:09:41 PM

Quote :

"I guess. Still seems a bit silly for anyone to get their panties in a wad over. Since they generally use fellowship halls we're really just talking about a gym with a cross and maybe some Jesus pictures. Hell, you could probably ask them to take most of that stuff down for the day."

Given the Islamophobia in this country, do you think Muslims (especially recent immigrants) would be comfortable going into a Church to vote?

Quote :

"if you are not a christian then the brick and mortar of that particular building is somehow infected with religous cooties that make it less comfortable than the brick and mortar down the street."

This is not the point. Also, the next polling location might not be "down the street" and might be inaccessible for various reasons.

[Edited on August 24, 2010 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

8/24/2010 5:29:44 PM

Quote :

"This is not the point. Also, the next polling location might not be "down the street" and might be inaccessible for various reasons."

+

Quote :

"be more comfortable (and more likely)"

= seems like you are directly equating the two

Quote :

"Given the Islamophobia in this country, do you think Muslims (especially recent immigrants) would be comfortable going into a Church to vote? "

Again this sounds like the homophobe agruement which never held water - so why do you expect it to do so this time? Also that is a bit bold of you to insinuate that muslims would have more to fear from christians than americans in general - the extremist's attacks were against america - not christians. I would venture to say that the logic should be reversed and that they should feel less comfortable in a government building.

8/24/2010 6:02:51 PM

^ Maybe a military base, but not every branch of the government is complicit in or involved in our vicious interventionism.

Christian extremists fill our front lines (and the people who pulled the trigger on going to war), however. Also, a lot of the anti-Muslim bigotry our country is currently in the midst of comes from Christian extremists (unsurprisingly). You seriously can't see a reason why having the polling place in ANY house of worship is inappropriate? Let's just agree to disagree, then.

8/24/2010 6:06:22 PM

Quote :

"Given the Islamophobia in this country, do you think Muslims (especially recent immigrants) would be comfortable going into a Church to vote?"

Islamophobia in this country, such at it is, is hardly limited to any given group. You're just as likely to get dirty looks at a school as you are at a church. It isn't as though polling places are manned by their usual employees.

Quote :

"Christian extremists fill our front lines (and the people who pulled the trigger on going to war), however."

Sigh...I wish for the good old days when extreme liberals could be relied on to have Marxist-Leninist bents, and thus be more concerned about class warfare. You know who fills our front lines? Poor people and the children of military people (often as not, the same thing). Then there's the segment that goes into the military to pay for college. I don't think I've heard my roommate/friend mention God seriously in the ten years I've known him, but somebody had to pay for law school and the army was there.

Quote :

"You seriously can't see a reason why having the polling place in ANY house of worship is inappropriate?"

Again, this is missing the point. You poll in a church, that doesn't mean everyone there is a church person. The only thing inherently Christian (or whatever) about the place is the ownership of the building. You are just as likely to run into Christian fundamentalists in a school or fire station as you are in a church.

I don't have sympathy for people who are afraid of a building -- which is why I'm in favor of building the Mosque/community center at its currently planned location.

8/25/2010 12:01:54 AM

It's funny that McDanger can't see how he is applying one form of logic to governmental buildings but ignoring that same thought process when religion is involved

Quote :

"Maybe a military base, but not every branch of the government is complicit in or involved in our vicious interventionism. "

Quote :

" Christian extremists fill our front lines. Also, a lot of the anti-Muslim bigotry our country is currently in the midst of comes from Christian extremists. You seriously can't see a reason why having the polling place in ANY house of worship is inappropriate?"

Why can't you draw the same distinction that not every house of worship is operated by extremists complicit in or involved in anti-Muslim bigotry. (also as Grumpy stated - you are still missing the point)

It seems to me that you may be involved in some anti-Christian bigotry. Get over yourself.


[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

8/25/2010 11:42:15 AM

Quote :

"Again, this is missing the point. You poll in a church, that doesn't mean everyone there is a church person. The only thing inherently Christian (or whatever) about the place is the ownership of the building. You are just as likely to run into Christian fundamentalists in a school or fire station as you are in a church. I don't have sympathy for people who are afraid of a building -- which is why I'm in favor of building the Mosque/community center at its currently planned location."

It's not "fear of a building". Good lord. We shouldn't adopt policies that favor one religion over another. If you just have to bop down to your regular church, then you may be more likely to vote than somebody that doesn't attend that church. This favors a RELIGIOUS group over others. We should avoid this when it comes to public policy.

Quote :

"It's funny that McDanger can't see how he is applying one form of logic to governmental buildings but ignoring that same thought process when religion is involved"

The two are supposed to be separate.

Quote :

"Why can't you draw the same distinction that not every house of worship is operated by extremists complicit in or involved in anti-Muslim bigotry. (also as Grumpy stated - you are still missing the point) It seems to me that you may be involved in some anti-Christian bigotry. Get over yourself."

I'd have the same problem if polling stations were located in mosques. So get your head out of your ass.

Not every house of worship is extremist, but that's not even my point. There are myriad reasons why people might not feel comfortable (or might be less likely) to vote when a polling location is in a place of worship. This favors members of that sect over others -- I think this is inappropriate when the group that is favored is identifiable and defined solely on the basis of religion.

Edit: The question here is, "when we adopt this policy, what is the effect?" If the policy disencourages people from voting based on their religious classification, then it's a bad PUBLIC POLICY for a SECULAR COUNTRY.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

8/25/2010 11:49:45 AM

Quote :

"It's not "fear of a building". Good lord. We shouldn't adopt policies that favor one religion over another. If you just have to bop down to your regular church, then you may be more likely to vote than somebody that doesn't attend that church. This favors a RELIGIOUS group over others. We should avoid this when it comes to public policy."

A few things come to mind:

For it to make a difference the majority of parishioners would still have to live in an area where their church represented their polling center. Maybe that's the case in rural America.

All non parishioners, regardless of religious beliefs or denomination, still have access to the polling center. If they are too lazy to vote or they decide not to vote because they take offense at their polling center being a church, or a church they don't go to for that matter, then I'm not missing their vote too much.


People would be more likely to bop down to their voting center if it is convenient to them. It doesn't matter if it's a church, school, or whatever. If it's a few blocks from my house I'd probably vote due to the extreme ease. If it were a few miles, a little less likely. Tens of miles even less likely. The greater the physical effort the less likely it would be for the average person to take time out of their day to vote.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason : too many edits]

8/25/2010 12:41:00 PM

^, bingo.

Granted, I'm not a brown person but shit, I would probably be considered worse than a Muslim if the Christians running the church knew of my (non-)beliefs.

Luckily I don't burst into flames or get outlined by heavenly light when I enter churches. I used to work out at the YMCA. Giant fucking portraits of the European version of Jesus everywhere.

To be honest, I'd prefer that the church didn't exist and the polling place was at a convenient, large, air-conditioned public space, but the church I vote at does exist and is large and air-conditioned; I like it.

As long as the religious practitioners aren't actively proselytizing, I would feel the same amount of comfort voting at a church or synagogue or mosque or Mormon temple. When it's not being used for spreading mystical bullshit, it's just a building. And typically well decorated and comfortable buildings at that.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 12:57 PM. Reason : mosques too!]

8/25/2010 12:56:48 PM

Quote :

"If you just have to bop down to your regular church, then you may be more likely to vote than somebody that doesn't attend that church. "

This seems like a bit of a stretch, I gotta say. The whole point of using churches is to have more polling places so it will be more convenient to vote so that more people vote, period. Nobody in this country says, "Well, I wasn't planning on voting, but it's at my church. Sure, none of my fellow parishioners will be there, the minister won't be there, but boy I sure like hanging out in that building!"

Quote :

" There are myriad reasons why people might not feel comfortable (or might be less likely) to vote when a polling location is in a place of worship."

This is true about any potential polling place. Supplanter recommended the use of social service buildings, which are public and secular but present a far better reason to feel uncomfortable than a church does. Not even disco_stu thinks he might get stabbed at a church, but anyone in their right mind worries about it at the welfare office.

---

So, just so we're clear, the advantages of using churches:
1) Conveniently located
2) Spacious facilities to accommodate voters, booths, registration tables, etc.
3) Easy to find
4) Not conducting business on a Tuesday
5) Free

Disadvantages to using churches:
1) The hypothetical existence of a guy who is such a tool that he won't vote because he doesn't like the church
2) The hypothetical existence of a guy who is such a buffoon that he wasn't going to vote, but now he is because he likes hanging out at church

So that's five tangible advantages vs. two guys who, as far as we know, exist only in your mind, and who if they are real are really big douchebags.

8/25/2010 2:41:46 PM

Quote :

"I was just throwing out there another type of [/b]possible public facility that could be used to expand the list of town halls, county seats, schools, museums, galleries, park buildings, libraries, fire stations, community centers, senior centers, visitors centers, post offices, [b]some social services buildings, and courthouses etc."

Only saying possibilities, not recommending everything on the list. And social services was the only type of building that I qualified by saying some would be appropriate and some wouldn't. But you aren't going to get stabbed at all of them. So I don't think stabbiness is really much of a concern to focus in comparing government use of public facilities vs religious facilities for voting. I think you'd be safe at a social security administration site or even an employment application assistance place.

http://www.ncdhhs.gov/dss/programs/

Quote :

"Adoption Services Child Placement Services for Children Child Protective Services Child Support Enforcement Community Based Programs Crisis Intervention Emergency Assistance Energy Assistance Food and Nutrition Services Foster Care Fraud Independent Living Program for Foster Children (NC LINKS) Interstate Compacts Interpreting Services Licensing Child Placing Agency Family Foster Homes Maternity Homes Residential Child Care Homes Lifeline-Linkup Problem Pregnancy Services Refugee Assistance System of Care Work First Family Assistance Special Initiatives/Programs Challenge for Children Community Child Protection Teams Multiple Response Systems (MRS) "

8/25/2010 3:04:15 PM

Yeah, but the ubiquitousness of churches compared to such buildings has to count for a lot. Convenience, my good man.

8/25/2010 3:06:30 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, but the ubiquitousness of churches compared to such buildings has to count for a lot. Convenience, my good man."

I've already said I'm cool with church voting... so who is that directed to?

8/25/2010 3:08:09 PM

Foster kids creep me out and there's already too many old people hanging out at polling places. That eliminates most of the non-stabby options.

8/25/2010 3:09:27 PM

Quote :

"For it to make a difference the majority of parishioners would still have to live in an area where their church represented their polling center. Maybe that's the case in rural America. All non parishioners, regardless of religious beliefs or denomination, still have access to the polling center. If they are too lazy to vote or they decide not to vote because they take offense at their polling center being a church, or a church they don't go to for that matter, then I'm not missing their vote too much."

Nobody cares if you miss their vote or not. The question is whether selecting certain locations as polling locations serves to favor a particular religious group over another. There's reason to believe it does (even you guys acknowledge this as you "get over it", in essence).

It doesn't matter if it makes a large or a small difference. We have a commitment in this country not to favor one religion over another in our public policy.

Quote :

"As long as the religious practitioners aren't actively proselytizing, I would feel the same amount of comfort voting at a church or synagogue or mosque or Mormon temple. When it's not being used for spreading mystical bullshit, it's just a building. And typically well decorated and comfortable buildings at that."

Your preferences, whether reasonable or not, are not the only reasonable preferences, and should not determine anything in isolation. The question is whether or not the choice of location could affect peoples' voting behaviors on the basis of RELIGION.

Quote :

"This seems like a bit of a stretch, I gotta say. The whole point of using churches is to have more polling places so it will be more convenient to vote so that more people vote, period. Nobody in this country says, "Well, I wasn't planning on voting, but it's at my church. Sure, none of my fellow parishioners will be there, the minister won't be there, but boy I sure like hanging out in that building!""

If you pull it out of your ass, I'm going to treat it like shit.

Quote :

"This is true about any potential polling place. Supplanter recommended the use of social service buildings, which are public and secular but present a far better reason to feel uncomfortable than a church does. Not even disco_stu thinks he might get stabbed at a church, but anyone in their right mind worries about it at the welfare office."

The only thing that matters is whether or not we're affecting behavior on the basis of religious affiliation. You might have other reasons to dislike locations, but religion is a particular sticking point here.

Quote :

"Disadvantages to using churches: 1) The hypothetical existence of a guy who is such a tool that he won't vote because he doesn't like the church 2) The hypothetical existence of a guy who is such a buffoon that he wasn't going to vote, but now he is because he likes hanging out at church"

Wow, major stretches here, seeing as how in many parts of the country, Churches are wholesale political institutions.

Quote :

"So that's five tangible advantages vs. two guys who, as far as we know, exist only in your mind, and who if they are real are really big douchebags."

You can count things anyway you like in your fictional example, cooked to your liking.

Quote :

"Yeah, but the ubiquitousness of churches compared to such buildings has to count for a lot. Convenience, my good man."

Principles over convenience. We have plenty of buildings that don't promote certain religious groups over others.

8/25/2010 3:51:23 PM

Quote :

"Foster kids creep me out and there's already too many old people hanging out at polling places. That eliminates most of the non-stabby options"

Touché

8/25/2010 4:01:57 PM

Quote :

"Nobody cares if you miss their vote or not. The question is whether selecting certain locations as polling locations serves to favor a particular religious group over another. There's reason to believe it does (even you guys acknowledge this as you "get over it", in essence). It doesn't matter if it makes a large or a small difference. We have a commitment in this country not to favor one religion over another in our public policy."

What's the reason to believe this again? Because a minor increase of voting for a constitutional amendment in SC regarding gay marriage was detected at churches opposed to other polling places?

Quote :

"Principles over convenience. We have plenty of buildings that don't promote certain religious groups over others."

When there's no one in the church spouting nonsense, the church is not promoting anything other than a nice place to stand while you put a checkbox on a paper.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 4:24 PM. Reason : .]

8/25/2010 4:17:23 PM

Again, I think that we are reliant upon houses of worship for polling station is that the local governments have already used the facilities they have as polling stations and still do not have sufficient number of polling stations to properly serve the local community. I think many of the government facilities listed are mainly office buildings that do not have sufficient room, parking, access, etc. to serve as polling stations: for example, an office may have a conference room that theoretically is large enough to house one or two polls, but it may be deep within the offices and cubicles and would create too much a disruption having a stream of voters navigating their way through.

I looked for example at Guilford County's list of polling stations, and they had just about every major municipal building listed from schools to rec centers to larger fire stations and training facilities. However, given how many polling stations there are, I can't see any way they could find enough secular buildings to make up for the number of churches and other houses of worship used as polling stations. Not unless we want to create super polling stations and collapse the hundred+ down to a couple dozen.

8/25/2010 4:26:29 PM

Quote :

"even you guys acknowledge this as you "get over it", in essence"

No sir, I'm going one farther than that. I've seen no demonstration that the use of churches as polling places favors any group. You have put forward the possibility that it does. In this country we have enough trouble appeasing all the real people, you don't have to make up new ones who meta-bitch about something.

Quote :

"You might have other reasons to dislike locations, but religion is a particular sticking point here."

But some of those other likes or dislikes may favor or tend to exclude other groups who should not be discriminated against. Pacifists might not want to vote at military installations. Black people might not want to vote at a police station. Both would have reasons no less cogent than your hypothetical anti-religion dude.

Quote :

"We have plenty of buildings that don't promote certain religious groups over others."

In Raleigh we do. The entire country isn't urban or suburban. There are people who live prohibitively far from viable government buildings but rather close to a church. You seem perfectly happy to definitely and tangibly discriminate against rural people in order to maybe avoid offending religious sensibilities.

8/25/2010 4:27:53 PM

Quote :

"Pacifists might not want to vote at military installations. Black people might not want to vote at a police station. Both would have reasons no less cogent than your hypothetical anti-religion dude."

None of these are religious institutions, which should be held farthest away from political functions as possible.

8/25/2010 4:58:40 PM

You said this earlier:

Quote :

"The question here is, "when we adopt this policy, what is the effect?""

A building does not have to be owned by a religious institution in order to have the [b]effect[/i] of (to continue quoting you) "discouraging people from voting based on their religious classification," or on their racial classification as the case may be.

If your concern is to avoid ever potentially discriminating against some group, well I've got bad news, you can't do it. If your concern is the separation of church and state, which is what you seem to have shifted to, then I understand your objection but find it odd to demand that we cling to a principle in a context where it has no practical effect or relevance, either for purely symbolic reasons or because you have an issue with religion in general.

8/25/2010 5:42:53 PM

Botalics doesn't work with CrazyCode, despite being sufficiently crazy.

8/25/2010 10:38:39 PM

Quote :

" None of these are religious institutions"

A church building (and as Grumpy already pointed out, usually a meeting hall) is not a religious institution either. Unless you are proposing the building itself has magic powers. They are locations of religious gatherings, but so are empty fields and the NCSU brickyard.

[Edited on August 25, 2010 at 11:04 PM. Reason : oioi]

8/25/2010 11:03:47 PM

^Exactly what I came here to post. An empty church is not a religious institution.

8/26/2010 8:47:05 AM