to buy tires.

It seems like 90% of the tires aren't manufactured in a suitable size for either the front or the rear. I run into this problem on my S2000 (with stock, 16" AP1 wheels), because the high-performance 16" tire selection is a little slim nowadays.

I've been playing around with the idea of a C5 ZO6 when I get back to the States, and there isn't shit available for it, either...it has the opposite problem: not enough availability of really wide tires.

I'll bet that if I end up with a 996, it's an issue there, too.

9/5/2010 2:13:11 PM

It's not so bad for the 996, but the problem is there on quite a few more cars... Any M car, any Corvette, any Porsche, so on. That said, you can and in fact probably should run a square set up on some of those (///).

9/5/2010 4:37:24 PM

Yeah, I can see running a square setup on an M3, or especially a 135i, for example.

On a C5 ZO6? No way in hell, haha. The options are pretty much the following:

1. Spend a small fortune on appropriate tires in the correct size (I'll bet that I'd go through $3000 worth of tires per year just driving on the street. Throw a few track days in there and, well...)

2. Cripple the car with unsuitable tires, which would defeat the point of buying a ZO6 to begin with

3. Go up/down 10mm and/or 5% or so front/rear in aspect ratio to get tires that are available and will still fit the wheels without too much pinching or stretching. Not quite sure what options this would open up without compromising the handling of the car.

4. Put some GT-type tires (like, 400+ treadwear rating) on the stock wheels for everyday driving. Buy a 2nd set of wheels...then put R-comps on them with little regard for the cost (as they wouldn't see a lot of mileage, anyway)

5. Sell the stock wheels; buy another set in sizes that open the door to another tire choice (and hopefully make a smart choice on wheel size, so as to at least maintain the car's dynamics).

9/5/2010 4:55:02 PM

option 5 is the best for the vette. Get a good bit more rubber up front and a little bit more out back.

9/5/2010 7:06:55 PM

I've never driven a C5 ZO6, but I don't get the impression that it's either under-tired or prone to understeer.

9/5/2010 10:49:44 PM

Drove a '01 C5 Z06. Except power, everything else was shit. Steering wheel is vague and off center feel is non existent. I can't tell where body ends and where it is pointed. I know all the numbers on it are great and that is supposedly a great track car. to me IT sucks.

[Edited on September 6, 2010 at 1:01 AM. Reason : f]

9/6/2010 12:58:20 AM

Having owned a modified Corvette, and driven a few of them, I entirely agree, it's garbage, and I literally couldn't stand driving the car, however... It was very comfortable, relatively quiet, and for those first 4-5 days I had it (I owned it for 11 days), it was kind of fun to "drive", kind of like what I'd imagine riding a bull would be like. It was retarded, and lacked feel of all sorts. Steering was very fast, and devoid of most feel. I drove it on track for half of one session, and let a friend of mine (veteran instructor) take it out for a session on track as well. He stayed out for about 10 minutes, came back to me and said that would be the last time he drove a Corvette. I've driven stock examples, which were much, much worse btw.

I will say this, the brakes felt easy to modulate, though had a spongy pedal. ABS reaction was also decent, steering had some feedback once yaw angles were sufficient. That said, if drifting is your thing, you can hold a power slide in 3rd gear in the wet until you were bored, amazing. I'd own another for a couple of weeks!

9/6/2010 10:34:48 AM

I feel your pain re: tire sizes. The Marauder runs an extremely common front size but the rear (245/55 ZR18) is *only* made in the OEM tire for the car. Literally no one else makes it, and as of right now they make one production batch per year of the rears and when they're gone, they're gone. I had to go up to 255/55 last time, which only exists as a "high performance light truck" tire. GRRRRRRR.

9/6/2010 12:22:32 PM

Yeah, it's not a car I think I'll own for the long haul. It is, however, I car that I want to own and experience...and I expect that the ZO6 will be somewhat better than a regular C5 in some regards (besides the obvious power and grip). I think it'll be fun, at least for a while...plus, it should be pretty benign from an ownership perspective. The depreciation shouldn't be bad, it shouldn't require tons of maintenance and repairs, and what it does need shouldn't break the bank.

Soon enough, when I get back to FL, I'll pretty much HAVE to have something with a backseat. I'm kinda holding out for the 1-///M in terms of BMWs, and I'm a little scared of Porsches with M96/M97 engines (plus I figure that a 997 Mk2 will be JUST the ticket a few years down the road). I kinda feel like now is the time to scratch my 'Vette itch, especially with C5 ZO6s being in kind of a sweet spot of being very affordable with not much depreciation left, but not totally old, outdated, and used up.

9/6/2010 7:55:25 PM

All I have to say about that is... booooo.

I've not personally seen an M96 based failure and I certainly am around dozens of them all the time. Also, Corvettes suck. Nothing was cheap on it like I expected it to be, and mine (very clean, one owner car) broke a few times in the two weeks I owned it. It was a pain in the neck to work on (have to remove water pump or exhaust header to get the A/C compressor out for example, or having to drill through the fiberglass cowl to replace the oil pressure sending unit) to boot. Brake parts were comparable to what I pay for the 996, though I do get wholesale on that stuff. Tires were actually even more expensive.

But yeah, it was fun for a little bit, just felt like a turbocharged barstool rather than a sports car.

9/6/2010 10:02:43 PM

man, while we're on the subject of the C5 Z06, that optional two-tone red interior that some of them have is WRETCHED.

[Edited on September 7, 2010 at 1:29 AM. Reason : haha, the regular all-black interior is bad enough as it is]

9/7/2010 1:25:37 AM

you can thank Obama, at least in part, for putting a tariff on imported tires from China. This has caused an overall decrease in market supply, which has affected price and availability.

9/7/2010 8:16:18 PM

I... don't run Chinese tires, and I don't think the tires that most people would put on their cars are made there either, unless you're putting 24"s on your impala, I don't think there'd be any impact...

Also, may I see where you're getting that information from, out of curiosity?

9/7/2010 8:46:25 PM

I saw a picture of a C5 Z06 with a Momo wheel, Corbeau seats/harnesses, and a different shift knob. Interior still wasn't on par with ze Germans or anything, but it looked a helluva lot better.

9/7/2010 8:53:38 PM

so, obviously Corbeau seats aren't in the same league as, say, Sparco or Recaro...but they aren't priced in the same league, either. Are they safe/crash tested?

9/9/2010 7:34:59 PM

Quote :

"I... don't run Chinese tires, and I don't think the tires that most people would put on their cars are made there either, unless you're putting 24"s on your impala, I don't think there'd be any impact... Also, may I see where you're getting that information from, out of curiosity?"

The (currently 35%) tariff was added about a year ago: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/12/business/global/12tires.html

This is a textbook case in economics, although I doubt many people learned/remember it. Besides directly raising prices on the affected tires, it raises the price and reduces selection of the total passenger tire market. It shifts the supply curve to the left, for those of you who remember any Economics (I have a minor in it and have worked in the investment industry).

1) it reduces foreign competition for tires in general, giving unaffected manufacturers more pricing power.

2) it makes unaffected tiremakers shift production to cover the reduced amount of imported tires. This results in a reduction of supply in high performance and specialized tires. For example, the Toyo T1-R tires I had been looking at rose by about $50 a tire around the time of the tariff. They were also harder to find in the size I want. Many other performance tires have been negatively affected as well. You get less tires supplied and a higher price paid per tire.

3) it makes outsourcing of low end tires to china more expensive, which overall requires manufacturers to raise prices in general. if you increased tariffs on electronics made in China (like ipods) then that would adversely contract the supply of the whole market.

It's basically supply and demand, plus substitution effects. http://www.saddleback.edu/faculty/aorrison/mathhelp/sdtrade.htm it uses teddy bears rather than tires in this example. scroll down to the section called "teddy bear protection"

[Edited on September 9, 2010 at 8:34 PM. Reason : .]

9/9/2010 8:31:31 PM

I disagree. Before I continue, let me add that there is not a single tire made in China available in the sizes that would fit a 996 OR a Corvette.

I think that a tariff on a Chinese made tire having a real effect on the price of a premium race tire is not logical, and to attribute a $50/tire increase seems disingenuous. If you want to use an industry wide blanket example, I would say that the following is a closer representation of what your statement implies;

If the cheapest powered speakers on the market (which are made in China of course) sold for $7.50, and post tariff goes to let's say $9.25, and the cost of my B&W speakers (made in Denmark) also goes up around the same time by ~30%, that the two must be related

[Edited on September 9, 2010 at 10:43 PM. Reason : I don't have a minor in economics, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. <3]

9/9/2010 10:41:50 PM

Well, looks like I'm about to add a Z06 to the stable. Anyone have suggestions for reasonably priced/inexpensive wheels that are available in appropriate sizes? If they look good, I could make them my street set. If they're dirt ass cheap enough, I don't even care how ugly they are as long as they aren't stupidly heavy--I could make them a track-only set.


Also, what about those Corbeau seats? Are they safe? Crash tested? I know they aren't Recaros; that's fine. They'd be a huge step up from the OEM garbage as long as they aren't dangerous.

10/10/2010 12:56:48 PM

I carried Corbeau back when I had my shop and they're pretty much an entry level "quality" seat. They were a pretty big step up from the Pep Boys shit but there's some big differences between them and Recaro, Sparco, etc. The only real downsides to them is the fabric quality (which none of the seats I have used really had GOOD quality fabric) and that they aren't FIA certified and you had to use a back brace if you wanted to use them for w2w racing. Overall they're pretty good seats and I definitely wouldn't hesitate to use them again.

10/10/2010 1:23:15 PM

Not gonna race it wheel-to-wheel...just want to make sure that they would stand up at least as well as the OEM seats in any reasonable crash scenario, either street or track.

10/10/2010 1:31:16 PM

Are you looking at reclining or fixed-backs? If you're looking for fixed-backs, they are not made to withstand roof cave-ins like stock seats/recliners are. Stockers are designed to break away and recline (not sure how well that works in a vette though). Fixed backs are designed to be used with a bar or cage and won't (shouldn't) break away. It's a pretty unlikely event but I'll let you make that decision. Otherwise they're tubular steel frames (other than the fiberglass FX1) and probably better built than a stock GM seat.

Then again, stock seats are crashed tested extensively in your vehicle and have a lot more money standing behind them.

10/10/2010 1:42:02 PM

yeah, those are pretty much my thoughts...and i'm prob more interested in more street-oriented reclining seats.

10/10/2010 2:03:02 PM

I don't think stock seats are made to "break away" in case the roof structure is compromised. I assume this is your opinion?

In either case, the Corvette badly needs seats. If it were me, it would get a fixed back Recaro or Sparco. You also need top notch sliders, especially if the seat belt bolts to the seat rail, I would not want to skimp there if you intend to drive the car hard. The quality difference b/w the OEM/Recaro applications and knock-off/budget type stuff is pretty staggering. Actually, I have a factory Porsche/Recaro FIA approved seat in storage, I'll snap a few pictures if you'd like.

Anyway, it's a relative thing. In a forward impact, the seats aren't that important unless the seat belts are anchored to a common point. In a side/rearward impact, a real racing seat could quite literally save your life, but even on track, it does't happen THAT often. That said, I've been in a car where the stock seat backs broke, e36 M3, backwards into tire wall at around ~100mph, then an endo and a flip.

10/10/2010 2:50:53 PM

^No, not really my opinion. That's what I've read many times over the years. Three-point belt + stock reclining seats = no crushing of your melon. I don't mean they literally break. The reclining mechanism is pretty much a weak point and the design of the seat with the three point belt allows your body/head to recline and move toward the middle of the car in event of a rollover. Maybe I'm wrong & foolish but it always made sense to me when I read it in the past and it still does.

I can't think of any stock vehicles that come with fixed back seats that don't also come with some kind of roll protection (i.e. Elise/Exige). The fact that it's not uncommon for seat backs to break at the mechanism in rear collisions also tends to lend itself toward this idea. Do you THINK that I'm wrong or do you KNOW? I'm curious as to why you disagree. I've never really questioned it.

10/10/2010 5:34:59 PM

I've read the same in regards to the 3 point belt + stock seats being preferable to fixed back seats +harnesses if the latter doesn't include additional roll over protection from message boards, but never a credible study or paper. It is not my personal belief. Overall, I would much rather be in an FIA approved seat (and proper mounting) +5 or 6 point harnesses than stock (with proper mounting/angles), and would take my chances in a roll over if it came to that.

As for factory delivered cars, the Porsche GT3 has been delivered with bucket seats in Europe since ~2000 as standard, along with the GT2. In the U.S. they switched to buckets for the GT2, while they remain a dealer ordered item for the GT3 however they were readily available from any dealer in the U.S. The Carrera GT came with buckets in all markets. I do believe the EVO 8 and 9 come with FIA approved Recaros. Even though they are foldable, the FIA certification only looks at a rearward impact at a certain shock loading (I believe 20Gs), so I assume they wouldn't break easily.

I am open to other opinions, but I've come across nothing written by a sanctioning body or safety organization in regards to how 1 all factory or 2 bucket seats +harnesses but no roll bar would compare in a roll over.

10/10/2010 5:53:25 PM

duke, i'm running corbeau a4's in my car. quality entry level race seat that's still more than comfortable for something that's still a dedicated street car. you're fairly limited with c5's in terms of seats, they're really narrow. especially if you throw a 6 point into the mix. fwiw, the stock sport seats (in good condition) aren't bad in my opinion and you can run harnesses with them no problem. the base model seats suck. only reason i ditched my sport seats was for weight and they were worn out. corbeau makes c5 specific sliders that make the whole process a bolt in affair as well.

anyway, you're welcome to come try mine out. you can even try my dad's out as well, his stock sport seats are still in perfect condition considering it's on got a whopping 6000 miles on it now, lol.

as for tires, you can go a bit wider on the stock wheels to open up more possibilities. for example, i ran 305's no problem on the rear when i had stock zo6 wheels. some guys also put a matching set of rear 18's up front. if you change wheels, a budget option that a lot of track guys use is 17x11 c4 zr1 wheels. you can cram some considerably wider rubber than stock under a c5 with no real mods. the real ticket would be a set of ccw's, but that's $$.

[Edited on October 10, 2010 at 9:48 PM. Reason : there's also the option of some cheap stockers with track tires and run something basic daily...]

[Edited on October 10, 2010 at 9:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2010 9:46:23 PM

^^ Yeah, that's pretty much the same boat as me except it was also something that came from my rep at one of my old seat companies (Corbeau/Sparco/Kirkey but not sure which now). We all know that company reps are far from experts though and often just talk out of their ass so that doesn't lend any more credence.

As for cars, I meant in the US since we're a much more "safety" obsessed country. I knew that they were options for the GT2/3 but did not realize that they had become standard on the non-RS GT2. I knew the GT2 RS had them but it has a standard roll bar, right? Carrera GT also has roll protection, right? Anyway, you have me curious now so I'm going to try to look into it. If you ever run across anything, let me know. I'm really interested to find out whether it's engineered/planned or just poor design.

10/11/2010 7:27:17 AM