Recently in the news up here in DC - but a local high school is removing most "F"s from their grading scales.

Quote :

"Depending on whom you ask, West Potomac High School's latest change to student grading is either another sign of a coddled generation or a necessary step to help struggling kids. The dreaded F has been all but banished from the grade books. The report cards that arrived home late last week showed few failing grades but instead marks of "I" for incomplete, indicating that students still owe their teachers essential work. They will get Fs only if they fail to complete assignments and learn the content in the months to come. The change in educational philosophy is intended to encourage students to continue working toward mastery of material rather than accepting a failing grade and moving on. Schools throughout the Washington area and the nation have made other moves to improve grading methods, especially as they affect low-performing students, though few have gone so far as West Potomac High, in the Alexandria section of Fairfax County. "It's a huge paradigm shift," said principal Clifford Hardison, who recalls that when year-end grades were tallied last June at West Potomac, he counted nearly 2,000 Fs, with a large group of teens racking up more than one failed course. The new strategy has critics - both within West Potomac and beyond - who fear that reducing the possibility of outright failure gives teachers less leverage while also giving students unrealistic expectations about the adult world they soon will enter. Some worry that the reordering of deadlines and test opportunities will also affect the transcripts of the college-bound, giving some students an advantage. Mary Mathewson, an English teacher, says a number of her colleagues are "livid" about the grading change, which "takes away one of the very few tools we have to get kids to learn." The possibility of failing is a motivator, she says, and now "kids are under the impression they can do it whenever they want to, and it's not that big of a deal." "

Rest of the Article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/13/AR2010111304100.html

I have a massive problem with this. This is completely encouraging students and parents to accept the mentality that failure is okay and shouldn't be punished. When students are automatically pushed to the next level and not forced to take responsibility it's a problem.

These students are going to go out in the work force and be a massive headache and problem for their managers.

11/15/2010 3:38:52 PM

durp

[Edited on November 15, 2010 at 3:43 PM. Reason : durp]

11/15/2010 3:41:03 PM

i blame parents and their embarrassing disregard for the educational welfare of their children

get your kid off the vidya games and stick their nose in a book


i've been meaning to make an educational reform thread for a while but couldn't manage to put together a reasonable starter thread without my frustration and disappointment at education in this country turning into rage and vulgarities

[Edited on November 15, 2010 at 3:43 PM. Reason : .]

11/15/2010 3:41:47 PM

I went to 3 different elementary schools and didn't have letter grades until 4th/5th grade. Before that it was some other shit like "M," "S," and "I." (M was the best)

I'm wondering whether this will have any cognizable change whatsoever in student behavior/motivation. My guess is that if a kid doesn't give enough of a shit about his or her work to get an F, calling it something different isn't going to change anything.

The problem is that you have an entire generation of students infected by the notion that they can get what they want without working for it, while those who work hard and do well are social pariahs (the latter is nothing new).

11/15/2010 3:48:03 PM

Sorry I thought this thread was about UNC-CH.

11/15/2010 3:50:42 PM

I don't see this fixing much. The kids who are OK with getting F's are the ones who will now get I's and still not care or do the work. The only way to really make things better is to somehow make all the kids want to do well and feel interested in the material. And as much as people try, I don't think that's something that can be easily accomplished, especially if the parents don't step up and start encouraging the kids to care about academics and achieve more from infancy.

I went to a Montessori school that had no grades or marks of any kind, aside from the yearly standardized testing we had to take, through sixth grade. I loved it because it taught me to focus on understanding the material rather than just cramming for tests (we also didn't actually have tests ever). That was something that amazed me when I went to a traditional school in seventh grade — so many people just cared about the letter on the exam rather than actually learning the information. The reason the gradeless system worked for the kids there was we all wanted to learn. Our parents gave us books and took us to museums and were involved in the process of our education. But if the kids just don't care about learning and aren't getting any incentive from home either, then the grading structure or lack thereof isn't really going to help too much.

11/15/2010 3:59:01 PM

Sorry I thought this thread was about UNC-CH.

11/15/2010 4:00:53 PM

If I read the article correctly, it sounds like if someone gets an F in English 1 they have to provide some additional amount of work to get a D instead of retaking the class. If they can't prove some level of mastery then they have to retake the class. Seems like this is just a method for pushing the kids with low intelligence or poor motivation through the system faster.

I dont see how this really affects typical or above average students. High school students that get multiple F's in remedial classes don't usually compete for jobs that require good grades.

11/15/2010 4:02:03 PM

Need I remind you that this is the American Public School System we're talking about here, where 8th place medals and participation ribbons are par for the course. The removal of F's on the grading scale is just the next logical step, soon to be followed by outlawing pop quizzes and renaming detention "timeout", eventually resulting in a generation of pussified miscreants who have no idea how to function in a society outside of their protective bubbles.

11/15/2010 4:02:06 PM

Seems like this is going to teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit

11/15/2010 4:13:13 PM

When are these idiots gonna realize that the world needs ditch diggers just like it needs doctors.

11/15/2010 4:24:00 PM

http://the-op.com/media/image2.php?ep=110&i=1&cat=6200

[Edited on November 15, 2010 at 4:26 PM. Reason : link fail. can't rehost from work.]

11/15/2010 4:25:20 PM

I'm going to provide a point for the opposition here, in hopes that it'll spurn some thought (as opposed to the rampant hate going on here).

Consider the following: A student "forgets" (even if he just didn't do it) to turn in some assignments for their algebra class. When mid semester report cards come out, they have an I in the class. Let's say someone puts their ass in gear when that happens. Their parents reinforce that they expect better, their guidance counselor lets them know they'll never get into college with an F in algebra, their Wendy's job won't let them work if they don't pass all their classes in a semester... whatever, I digress.

So let's say over the next 9 weeks the kid does all the work he was assigned, learns the material, does better on the tests, and passes the EOC in the 98th percentile. Then this kid has turned around his whole semester with the opportunity to make an A or B in the class because he wasn't stuck in that F,D,C range because of his first nine weeks. Does he not deserve that?

Also, if he doesn't get his ass in gear, he continues to fail the class and is given the F at the end of the semester that he earned.

This idea is more for helping people who slip up early than it is coddling losers. And let's be honest, our best Einstein's aren't always our best students, so if the kid merits the good grades to get through shouldn't he get them?

11/15/2010 4:47:41 PM

The day the working world allows "Incompletes" and "make-up" work then we can drop F's from the education system. Failure is an important lesson to learn. Protecting kids from the harsh realities of life is doing them great a disservice.

11/15/2010 5:05:52 PM

Treating an educational system like "the working world" is a bad idea in itself.

11/15/2010 5:13:57 PM

My high school also did not have "F"s and a D was considered failing...

11/15/2010 5:42:25 PM

after reading the article, i'm a little confused by the OP and some other posts. And the thread title is misleading.

They're not getting rid of "F"s. Essentially, all that's happening is that the students are being given more time to complete assignments. If they don't complete them in the allotted time, they'll still get an F.

They still have to do the work and show that they've learned the material. Nobody is being "pushed to the next level" because of this change.

11/15/2010 5:52:23 PM

This type shortsightedness seems to be the rule among administrators, these days.

1. Our kids are failing because of F's. Oh no!
2. Make it easier to pass.
3. Kids are allowed to be even more lazy; learn even less material.
4. More F's



My principal discourages zeros. As in, 40-60 should be the minimum grade students can receive.

My superintendent encourages us to grade on the "L-Curve:" some F's, less D's, some C's, more B's, and even more A's.




They're hitting diminishing returns, big time, on their way towards 100% on grade level by 2014 (NCLB), so they're trying all sorts of stupid crap and completely removing consequences and student responsibility from the equation.

11/15/2010 5:54:13 PM

the school system that I work does not allow a student to be given below a 60 for the first 9 weeks (1st quarter) of a semester. so... regardless of what the students score is (0-59) it "magically" turns into a 60 on report card day. I had to give one of my students a 44 point curve. The students who worked hard, pushed themselves to earn a passing grade of a 70 or higher did not receive any curve.

Is this fair?

I've had many students tell me they're "checking out" for first quarter and they'll put some effort in 2nd quarter.

11/15/2010 7:48:51 PM

Sorry I thought this thread was about UNC-CH.

11/15/2010 7:56:12 PM

^^ Thats how it is in a lot of schools. They say its to allow the student to "recover" and still pass.

Im just waiting to see this happen at the college level (Oh Snap it is already at UNC )
That or see how much bitching these kids do when they get to college.

11/15/2010 8:27:38 PM

In CMS, the policy is that a teacher is not allowed to give a grade below a 60%.
If a student turns in nothing, then the get a 60. We have to do that, so they can recover later if they do better.
It is a BS policy that encourages doing absolutely nothing. We are also only allowed to count 10% of the grade from homework. That way when they don't do it their grade doesn't suffer too much.
All a student has to do is a couple HW assignments and barely pass a test in order to pass each quarter.

I work for CMS btw.

11/15/2010 8:35:00 PM

i blame the parents completely.

11/15/2010 8:38:40 PM

Quote :

"Seems like this is going to teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit"

This is what concerns me. I'm all for piloting different theories in improving education on a small scale, within reason so long as it isn't damaging those involved in the pilot irreparably, but everything I know about motivation theories suggests that deadlines make things concrete and create a sense of urgency that can help one to get something done. Not to mention the real world value of understanding important deadlines.

I guess my openness to piloting new ideas wins out, just barely, since we need to find ways to improve education, but they need to measure & track this effort closely, and end it doesn't work out.

11/15/2010 8:40:47 PM

while i understand the whole seeing an F on their report could possibly cause a child to lose confidence in themselves and not want to try harder the rest of the semester - there's a fucking reason that they're given that F.

AstralEngine said above that maybe they just missed a few assignments or something. if they've only missed a few assignments then that alone isn't why they're receiving an F most likely. there must be other things contributing to that grade.

imho more children, not less children, need to be getting Fs. if they don't do the work, they don't put in the effort, then they have no business being promoted to the next grade.

11/15/2010 8:42:08 PM

Quote :

"My high school also did not have "F"s and a D was considered failing..."

and i bet your mascot was a unicorn, too

11/15/2010 8:59:09 PM

Quote :

"and i bet your mascot was a unicorn, too"

I try not to bring that part up as much...

11/15/2010 10:06:33 PM

This only further drives the point that kids today are morons. This only strengthens the argument.

11/15/2010 10:10:21 PM

They aren't the ones putting this policy into place.

Quote :

"This only further drives the point that kids adults today are morons. This only strengthens the argument."

The very same adults raised on the F system...

11/15/2010 10:19:45 PM

The problem is that schools (read admin) have stopped caring about teaching and more about bureaucracy, numbers, and data.

11/15/2010 10:52:01 PM

1) as already mentioned, title is very misleading. they are not removing F's. just allowing more time to make up the work. the alternative is an F and the kid never goes back to learn the material. at least in this case, some (perhaps only a few) will revisit the material and learn it.

2) i'm a teacher and have tried something similar this semester. first of all the 100 point scale is completely faulty, especially with our role as teachers. google it.

3) to everyone complaining about students barely passing their tests and passing the class, principals with crappy policies about not giving 0s, etc....the problem is not the policies you're forced to deal with. the problem is the rigor of your tests and what you're actually looking for when you grade. if a kid passes my class it's because they have done a decent job learning the material. Also, if a kid doesn't do homework, but aces the tests, that kid should get an A if the class is structured right. kids shouldn't be doing busy work for the sake of busy work.

4) this idea definitely has some problems, namely...

Quote :

"Seems like this is going to teach kids that deadlines don't mean shit "

this is true, and so to somewhat curb this, if kids fail to do an assignment i will give kids failing grades (but i grade on a 4 point scale- it's essentially rounded up to a 50 when it's all converted to the lame 100 point scale). but they can retake almost any assignment at almost any point and i will average the grades. so missing a deadline will hurt them, but there is also incentive to still do the assignment.

another problem is that, as already mentioned, most kids who get the F's aren't gonna bother to retake/redo/redemonstrate mastery anyways. in a good school with good kids and good supportive parents this would be a great idea. kids will be more concerned with learning than with points on a report card. but not in public schools with disadvantaged kids.

this is true...

Quote :

"The reason the gradeless system worked for the kids there was we all wanted to learn. Our parents gave us books and took us to museums and were involved in the process of our education. But if the kids just don't care about learning and aren't getting any incentive from home either, then the grading structure or lack thereof isn't really going to help too much."

[Edited on November 15, 2010 at 11:51 PM. Reason : ]

11/15/2010 11:49:04 PM

GET THE 'F' OUT OF SCHOOL

11/16/2010 12:08:10 AM

Quote :

"The problem is that schools (read admin) have stopped caring about teaching and more about bureaucracy, numbers, and data."

Maybe with the bureaucracy bit is true, but tracking performance data is necessary to see if there is improvement, and to test different ideas to see what works, so I wouldn't be anti-numbers/data.

You just need to track the rights thing, and multiple things. If you focus only on a particular test type then you get teaching to the test, but if you have different tests, graduation rates, college acceptance rates, job placement rates and all those sorts of things that are being tracked and used to determine how well a particular idea that is being piloted is working then I think numbers/data can & do help.

I do agree on the bureaucracy bit though, in so far as it stifles teaching flexibility.

11/16/2010 3:15:17 AM

Like duro982 noted, they're still giving out Fs. If you come to class and bomb the tests and turn in incoherent essays and mumble through your presentations, you're gonna get an F.

The I grade applies to missed work. If, for whatever reason, a kid misses a test, a zero does not reflect his mastery of the material (an automatic 60 doesn't either, of course--I hate that policy!). Again, a huge amount of Fs that students "earn" do not reflect their mastery of the material...they reflect the fact that they missed a couple tests. I'm a fan of null grades or using a students performance on the relevant portion of a final exam to reflect the test that he missed. But the I grade works, too...give them a chance to make the work up!

Of course, like wolfpackgrrr, the I grade may reinforce the notion that deadlines don't matter. Also, students love them some strategery when it comes to grades...I'd hate for a kid to put off work, thinking he could make it up, and then get in over his head and fail.

And remember, guys, policies like this one have been around forever--they're just making it official so that all kids can take advantage of it and not just the kids with pushy parents. I just stepped outside for a smoke, and I can assure you that the sky is not falling!

11/16/2010 4:40:08 AM

Quote :

"In CMS, the policy is that a teacher is not allowed to give a grade below a 60%. If a student turns in nothing, then the get a 60. We have to do that, so they can recover later if they do better. It is a BS policy that encourages doing absolutely nothing. We are also only allowed to count 10% of the grade from homework. That way when they don't do it their grade doesn't suffer too much."

10% for homework actually sounds reasonable.

Not being able to get lower than 60% for the first quarter make me think we deserve losing our place in the world.

11/16/2010 7:16:40 AM

I read the article and several experts mention that the I policy applies to failed tests and assignments as well.

Quote :

"Many parents ask about fairness: What about the conscientious student who keeps up with class, studies until 2 a.m. and pulls an A on a math test? Should a peer who skipped class and flubbed the test twice or three times get an equal grade? With the new policy, the ultimate grade on a student transcript could be the same, even though the two students took very different paths. "

Quote :

""I think giving Fs has a purpose, and that is to demonstrate we have standards [students] have to meet, and if they don't meet them, they don't pass," said Michael J. Petrilli, executive vice president at the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, an educational policy think tank. "Kids need to know that if they don't turn in an assignment or they blow a test, there are going to be consequences . . . We're trying to prepare young people for the world of adults." "

I agree that this policy does nothing to help students. When they know there are absolutely no consequences for not preparing or even going to class, they will do nothing to better themselves. Hell, how many people in college do you know didn't do their webassigns until the very end of the semester (for those classes where all webassigns were up at the beginning)?

Some policies like this did exist in high schools already. Many classes I took you could retake a test or two, turn in assignments late...but they had very firm limits. 1 retake a class. 10% off late homework per day, max 30%, then its a 0. Safeguards in place to help when shit came up and you couldn't prepare or do your work, but I think this policy takes it way too far.

In a world where students only had a trouble learning, this policy would be great. But today's kids don't give a fuck about school and are smart enough to use these loopholes to take advantage of the situation and coast through school on D's and I's.

Quote :

"In the first quarter, half of Mathewson's grades for two 10th-grade English classes were incompletes. "I don't believe it's an extra chance," she said. "It's an out. The root problem is motivation. The root problem is not that we're not teaching them.""

Teachers are getting fucked over too...as usual

Quote :

"Now, the thinking at West Potomac goes, learning will trump grading. The emphasis is on what students know. Teachers, working as a team, will be on duty more afternoons and Saturdays. They will be mentors, too. If students fail to finish work to clear up incompletes, they may have to attend a last-chance summer session."

11/16/2010 9:12:13 AM

Quote :

"first of all the 100 point scale is completely faulty, especially with our role as teachers. google it. "

Make your case. The only arguments I've heard amount to "we need to make it easier to pass."

Quote :

"we deserve losing our place in the world."

This is the silly part. One of the primary motivators for all of this ridiculous stuff is the notion that we're losing ground to other nations; nations whose schools look like 1950's US schools. And somehow by lowering our standards and cranking out more degrees, we'll be on top again.

Quote :

"If students fail to finish work to clear up incompletes, they may have to attend a last-chance summer session.""

This is referring to the students, but it's still hurting teachers by making them babysit these sessions on the weekends and during summer.

I see this with most new initiatives. Teachers are made to go way out of their way to accommodate laziness, and the students then become even lazier. It's like my childhood church: many people were showing up five minutes late to the 11:00 service, so they changed it to 11:05 service. Then people started arriving at 11:10.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 9:29 AM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 9:22:34 AM

Quote :

"The problem is that schools (read admin) have stopped caring about teaching and more about bureaucracy, numbers, and data."

"Our students are failing in record numbers! What should we do?!"

"I know! We'll make it impossible for them to fail!!"





[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ]

11/16/2010 9:46:26 AM

at its core education isn't about doling out grades, it's about instilling competency. these aren't the kids that are competing to get into harvard or even ncsu, so whether the grade is a C, D or F isn't particularly relevant for them

11/16/2010 10:03:05 AM

Quote :

"It's like my childhood church: many people were showing up five minutes late to the 11:00 service, so they changed it to 11:05 service. Then people started arriving at 11:10. "

made me lol for real

11/16/2010 1:16:57 PM

Sorry I thought this thread was about UNC-CH.

11/16/2010 4:26:55 PM

I nearly signed up for a class next semester at UNC, one that NCSU doesn't offer. I was weighing 3 different classes for my 1 elective spot. I ended up following one of my professors advice to focus on a class that will help develop a more marketable skill, so I didn't end up signing up for the inter-institutional course at UNC.

Before I had decided not to go through with it, I had contacted the UNC prof to get more info about the course though and asked for her thoughts on the interinstitutional thing. She told me she was up for it, and has done it before, but that she'd just need to convert my grades from Hs, Ps, or Ls to real grades to get it to count at State. I've been told they use those letters so that their grad students wont have GPAs.

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 4:36:09 PM

I think this is a great idea!
























It means less competition for my job in the years to come

11/16/2010 5:02:18 PM

It's like a strawman holocaust in here.

11/16/2010 5:04:01 PM

Quote :

"Before I had decided not to go through with it, I had contacted the UNC prof to get more info about the course though and asked for her thoughts on the interinstitutional thing. She told me she was up for it, and has done it before, but that she'd just need to convert my grades from Hs, Ps, or Ls to real grades to get it to count at State. I've been told they use those letters so that their grad students wont have GPAs. "

sarcasm?

11/16/2010 5:09:12 PM

Quote :

"first of all the 100 point scale is completely faulty, especially with our role as teachers. google it."

yes. please explain someone. i googled and cant find it (i also am on limited time to do anymore internet browsing i...ill check back later)

11/16/2010 5:19:32 PM

^ Sound like some Montessori sort of philosophy if I had to guess. I also have no idea what they're talking about.

11/16/2010 5:34:22 PM

I can't even invent ways to be pissed off at a 100 point scale. I can't imagine it's because you'd be pissed off at the number 100. It's an arbitrary number with enough precision to reflect a wide range of results.

Maybe you just have a problem with numbers themselves? Yea, fuck numbers. I'm giving you a grade of pineapple.

11/16/2010 5:38:49 PM

From what I gather, they don't have a problem with 100, they have a problem with starting at 0. So, a 60-100 point scale would be fine with them.

Which is stupid, of course.

11/16/2010 6:03:36 PM

It's like minimum wage, but where you don't even have to show up to get payed.

Oh, wait.

At least we're preparing them for the real world.

11/16/2010 6:27:04 PM