inspired by my personal experiences and this frontline episode, Facing Death, on PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/facing-death/

discuss. i suggest watching the program if you have time (available online) because it is super interesting (only an hour). also because it is easy to say in THEORY how you think/what you feel is "right", but then watching the program and seeing families and hearing from physicians makes you go "ehhhhh...maybe i'm not so sure..." and then the questions of whether our health care system (with rising costs) can even afford to sustain people on life support for years on end.

this isn't just about "pulling the plug." its also about electing to stop treatment, for example. is that giving up? or being realistic? should there be a bigger emphasis on palliative care? or is that "medical waste?" is pursuing every possible treatment, even if the odds are slim, acceptable? unacceptable?

here is the synopsis/intro from the website:

Quote :

" How far would you go to sustain the life of someone you love, or your own? When the moment comes, and you're confronted with the prospect of "pulling the plug," do you know how you'll respond? In Facing Death, FRONTLINE gains extraordinary access to The Mount Sinai Medical Center, one of New York's biggest hospitals, to take a closer measure of today's complicated end-of-life decisions. In this intimate, groundbreaking film, doctors, patients and families speak with remarkable candor about the increasingly difficult choices people are making at the end of life: when to remove a breathing tube in the ICU; when to continue treatment for patients with aggressive blood cancers; when to perform a surgery; and when to call for hospice. "What modern medicine is capable of doing is what 20 years ago was considered science fiction," Dr. David Muller, dean of medical education at Mount Sinai, tells FRONTLINE. "You can keep their lungs breathing and keep their heart beating and keep their blood pressure up and keep their blood flowing. ... That suspended animation [can go] on forever. [So] the decisions at the end of life have become much more complicated for everyone involved." In this powerful look at the reality of today's medicalized death, FRONTLINE producers Miri Navasky and Karen O'Connor (The Undertaking, Living Old, The New Asylums) introduce us to Albert Alberti, a 53-year-old father of three young children who's hoping to receive a third bone marrow transplant in his fight against leukemia. Bone marrow transplants have the potential to cure diseases that are otherwise incurable, but they are also among the most drastic treatments in oncology. The treatment itself can kill the patient. "He's got to take every step possible," says Deborah, Alberti's wife. "It's tough, but, you know, why give up? What's that going to do?" "Some physicians can keep giving treatment, and some find it unacceptable, and that, I think, is where the art of science and medicine mix," says Dr. Keren Osman of Mount Sinai's Bone Marrow Transplant Unit. "The lines are blurred, and they're also different for different physicians. Sometimes there are patients for whom ... I wish we'd stopped earlier because I think they suffered unnecessarily. ... Sometimes there are forces outside of the patient and myself that are the patient's family, other physicians. Sorting that out can be very, very tricky in those moments." John Moloney, a 57-year-old corrections officer, was diagnosed two years ago with multiple myeloma. He has tried every available treatment, including two bone marrow transplants. Now he wants to continue chemotherapy, even though the chance of its working is minuscule. "Bomb me," he tells his wife. "I'd rather be like that than dead." "It's hard to watch. John was 6 foot 3, 250 pounds. He's like, 150 pounds now," says his wife, Debbie Moloney. "And I told John: `No more cancer treatment, no more chemo. I can't see you be any more debilitated.' But then you talk and you say, `OK, let's try something mild,' because doing nothing -- it's scary to do nothing, because ... I don't want him to die. So ... you want to do something." Decisions about how aggressively to treat a patient can be complicated for doctors as well. "It's very difficult for me to say to a patient, `I don't think you have any treatment opportunity.' I never said that to any patient, never," Dr. Celia Grosskreutz of Mount Sinai's Bone Marrow Transplant Unit tells FRONTLINE. "I can't humanly say that to a patient. I always say, `Well, we can do this or the other,' even if it's in a palliative way. But I offer. I always say there is something to do." FRONTLINE also meets Marthe Laureville, who is 85 years old and has dementia. She has been intubated for two weeks, and now her daughters, Nadege, a nurse, and Sherley, a physician, have to decide whether to keep her on a ventilator. "I myself would not want to put Mom through a trach[eotomy]. ... I'm not sure, at this point, what the benefit is of that," says Nadege. "Will that prolong the life that she has right now, for one month or two months?" But Mrs. Laureville's other daughter, Sherley, disagrees: "I don't want to be the one to say [do not resuscitate] and to be responsible for her death before her time. ... I [will] not stop her from breathing. ... I will maintain her until the last minute." "There are clinical situations where the odds are so overwhelming that someone can['t] survive the hospitalization in a condition that they would find acceptable, then using this technology doesn't make sense," says Dr. Judith Nelson, an ICU doctor at Mount Sinai. "And yet, in my clinical experience, for almost everybody involved, it feels much more difficult to stop something that's already been started." But, according to Dr. Nelson: "Nobody wants to die. And at the same time, nobody wants to die badly. And that is my job. My job is to try to prevent people from dying if there's a possible way to do it that will preserve a quality of life that's acceptable to them, but if they can't go on, to try to make the death a good death." In the face of death, many patients will do almost anything to live, but new questions are being raised about whether we can afford the growing cost of end-of-life care. "There's a tremendous pressure now to reduce care to numbers as though there's an algorithm for every decision," says Dr. Jerome Groopman, professor of medicine at Harvard University. "When you look at Medicare data on expenditures at end-of-life and what is very glibly termed "waste," 30 percent of all care is waste. That's the new mantra. It's very hard to know what that means. And it's very hard to bring that out of Washington and into a hospital and at the bedside, with a single individual facing death.""

[Edited on November 23, 2010 at 9:57 PM. Reason : .]

11/23/2010 9:50:54 PM

My mom spent the summer after I graduated from high school in a medically-induced coma. Over those two months, pretty much every organ in her body failed or was on the brink of failure. In July, for three weekends in a row, we were told that she wouldn't live to see the following Monday and were consistently urged to consider removing her from ICU and stopping treatment. Luckily we didn't, she woke up, rehabbed and eight years later is still kickin' it.

But it's a personal decision and one that I don't think you can answer without being in that situation --- and every situation is incredibly unique. We didn't keep her going because we were just stubborn or because we had faith in some higher power, but I can't really say what it was that forced our decision. Maybe we just got lucky. Or maybe my mom is the Terminator.

11/23/2010 10:01:41 PM

^wow

11/23/2010 10:13:09 PM

Quote :

"Or maybe my mom is the Terminator."

lol that is really neat about your mom. and why it makes it so iffy i guess...even for physicians. that is awesome that she came out of it though. really awesome.

my mom had trouble waking up from anesthesia after a biopsy of a fungus in her lung...she woke up after the surgery and was alert, just on a ventilator because she was weak. she also was fresh off treatment for leukemia at the time and had 0 blasts, but 0 immune system (like honestly, no white blood cells). but like 24 hours later her condition deteriorated substantially. much less (if at all) alert. the choice was basically leave her like she is, or pull out the tube and see if she could breathe on her own. while we were deciding whether or not to do that (over like another 24 hour period...and i say we like it wasn't me sitting there ALONE being told this by like 12 doctors. all the while trying not to vomit/cry on the table) she apparently had like tons of tiny strokes in her brain, making the chances of her being able to breathe on her own even more slim. just because someone who wasn't already in that situation that had that # of strokes would apparently have little chance of recovery...brain = too damaged. soooo...we pretty much knew what was going to happen when we took her off the ventilator.

but it was basically leave her on it, or see what happens. i mean leaving her on it sucked. she wasn't responsive at all. no open eyes, no limb movement. so it didn't even seem like a choice to me. had to take her off to see what happened. she did breathe for like 30 minutes on her own once she was taken off though. :/

i can say my mom had fabulous physicians because they never urged us to do one thing or another...just gave us the rundown on what was happening and let us decide. one of them, a resident, was the kind of guy you could ask..."what would you do if it was your mother." he was really amazing. i am thankful for people like that. i can't imagine having a pushy physician at a time like that...i was about to crack as it was, i didn't need any extra forces helping me on the way there haha.

*******BUT********
i am also interested in hearing thoughts about people that ARE responsive, alert, awake, etc choosing to stop treatment. tonight on the episode a cancer patient that had a bone marrow transplant ultimately died from complications from the transplant and his doctor said she think it did not even improve the quality of his life at all. but i guess you can never 100% know. but is it better to not have it and live out the rest of your life mobile, at home, doing shit. or have it and potentially life the rest of your life with failing organs in a hospital bed. so crazy...

and they were saying that we are one of the few countries that allow physicians and patients to continue treatment no matter what (as long as the patient wants it). they were saying how this is a good thing on one hand because it helps progress medical advances. but a bad thing on the other because when the odds are slim, families are devastated thinking that their loved one was going to be the one to beat the odds. and also cost (to the system as a whole) was listed as another negative.

[Edited on November 23, 2010 at 10:21 PM. Reason : .]

11/23/2010 10:14:05 PM

one of my friend's wife was diagnosed with stage IV cancer. it was in her lungs and seven tumors in her brain. They did chemo and all that. He is very mad that they didn't tell him, that she probably wouldn't survive, go take a vacation and have a great time. He said the worst part was seeing the chemo kill her as much as the cancer. He said that they kept acting like it could all get better, not telling him it was terminal. They never even tried to write a will till the last minute.

but then I think all cases are individual.

such as Khadawal- it depends where the clots in her brain where, to know how much function she had lost. I think that long drawn out cancer deaths like that are terrible, becaue everyone is going through the greiving process, including the person dying.

11/23/2010 10:40:06 PM

To say her doctors urged us was using the wrong word. But it was an option that was brought up aplenty.

11/23/2010 10:43:25 PM

^^ yea the individualism of it is the kicker i think. because even though, with AML, for example, there is this standard treatment or whatever, things affect people differently and each individual responds differently. like the doctors at duke my mom had (experts in their field) had never had a patient whose white blood cells just never came back after cancer. not even ONE. so they were kinda perplexed.

so it was interesting to hear them talk about "medical waste" (which is mostly end-of-life care, i guess) because you can't really make any generalizations ever across the board (like all stage whatever cancer patients should just be sent home, because some make it). and it clearly isn't waste to the family. but should that even matter? i mean with the money saved could lots of other lives be saved? utilitarian argument. i dunno. tough questions.

i think it'd be really hard to be an ICU physician. esp the med icu. but i guess super rewarding when patients do leave. but it is scary when science can't help or give a definite answer. because everyone is basically like...now what? tons of choices, with no clear right choice. and no definite outcome for any choice.

^ oops yea. urged was probably wrong. but i've def heard it happening to other people. but then there are some families who i think need that. not urging really, but guidance.

hopefully brainysmurf has some comments. i always like hearing her opinions!

[Edited on November 23, 2010 at 10:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/23/2010 10:51:22 PM

added to my topics. i'm much to tired to read/discuss this now.

11/23/2010 11:02:01 PM

Interesting topic. I personally am not a big fan of keeping people on life support. I have no idea who pays for it all, but I imagine it the government funds a big portion of it through Medicare/Medicaid, etc. I really feel like we should be spending our government funds to help people who do have a fairly realistic shot at getting better. I know it sounds very callous, but 12 doctors who are attending to a patient with almost 0 chance of living is really a waste of assets.

On the flip side, I have never had to deal with this, and I imagine if I did my opinions might change a little or maybe even a lot.

It's kind of similar (IMO) to the argument for or against the death penalty. I'd say it's a pretty safe guess that 99% of people put to death are guilty of the crime they committed, but is that fair to the 1% who are innocent? The same goes for people on life support... although an overwhelming percentage may never recover, is that fair to the extremely small number that will recover?

11/24/2010 2:03:42 AM

I'll take my 1%. Don't ever pull the plug on me.

11/26/2010 7:13:46 PM

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande

fascinating article on hospice care

11/26/2010 7:18:30 PM

^^ really and truly? that is interesting, i like hearing differing viewpoints. but i'd always want a time limit. i wouldn't want to do that to my family...just drag out dying for years and years. but i mean, that is just my viewpoint.

^ great find, thanks for sharing it. long...but worth a read, for anyone who is interested in the topic.

11/26/2010 7:43:16 PM

Quote :

"I'll take my 1%. Don't ever pull the plug on me."

My thoughts exactly. This is why I pay for health insurance -- so my family doesn't have to choose between me or going broke.

11/26/2010 8:58:21 PM

Quote :

"This is why I pay for health insurance "

Does your health insurance provide unlimited financial coverage or extremely high? Most people don't realize it but there are maximum limits to most policies, and some are less than $1 million over your lifetime. $1 million may sound like a lot of money still... but life support can range from $1,000 to over $20,000 a day, depending on the severity... Lung transplants alone are over $500k, and even more for heart transplants. If there's a complication and you require life support, you may approaching your maximum limit faster than you think... I'm not directing this directly at anyone in particular... just throwing this out there. Most people think that having health ins. is good enough... Know what you are paying for and determine if you need more depending on your situation/health history. The last thing you'd want is to be caught with your pants down, literal or not.



[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 9:25 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 9:26 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2010 9:21:37 PM

I don't know. Seems like if you spend an extended period in the hospital you're all but guaranteed to go broke, even with insurance. 20% on a bill for a month long hospital stay would still be an intimidating sum.

1% chance to live and an almost 100% chance my family is paying for it until they're dead...

11/26/2010 9:24:22 PM

^ I personally would need MUCH better odds than 1%. I mean, at least double digits. Its awesome to hear stories and positive experiences like Ernie shared... But those are rare... If I'm on the verge of facing death, let me go. I've seen an entire family's quality of life brought down caring for another sick family member... I'm all for live together or die alone, however, I would hate to be the cause of my families burdens. Everyone's beliefs are different and there is nothing wrong with that. What really matters is understanding what that person wants before they are possibly put in a situation where a decision needs to be made, and carrying out their wish.

[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2010 9:33:02 PM

Quote :

"really and truly? that is interesting, i like hearing differing viewpoints. but i'd always want a time limit. i wouldn't want to do that to my family"

Maybe if I'm 110 or some crazy old age I'd want a time limit, but otherwise, keep those tubes in me...

11/26/2010 9:44:21 PM

oh boy do i have opinions on this


some days i do leave work feeling like i prolonged misery rather than saved a life.


the most recent disheartening case was a family that didnt remove life support after several horrible complications.....they trached and peg'ed their loved one because they couldnt afford a funeral....

most of my opinions are very cynical at this point.

for example we will flog the shit out of 70-90some year olds..........because the fam cant let them go yet. all so that if they do survive, they can spend the last year(if that long) in a nursing home.


it boils down to decide what level of disability you are willing to live with. talk to your family. if you think they will argue about your life amongst themselves......find someone you trust to make that decision for you and get a health care power of attorney. do it now while you are healthy.

ugh this topic is best discussed in person.........preferably with a beer or 3 in hand

11/26/2010 9:51:19 PM

brainysmurf

+1

[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 10:10 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2010 10:10:35 PM

We treat animals better than people. There are very good euthanasia methods available now, but we force people to use messy alternatives.

11/26/2010 10:13:31 PM

^ even for a troll, you do have a valid point.

^^^ thanks for sharing. i was hoping you'd find this thread!

Quote :

"Maybe if I'm 110 or some crazy old age I'd want a time limit, but otherwise, keep those tubes in me..."

can you elaborate more? sorry haha...not trying to pick on you or anything but you are one of the few that has this viewpoint in the thread! is it because you think technology will eventually advance and you will be cured? or because you are afraid to die? or....??

Quote :

"My thoughts exactly. This is why I pay for health insurance -- so my family doesn't have to choose between me or going broke."

yea...this is not exactly how insurance works haha.

and if you guys have some time you should seriously watch the frontline episode i linked to in the OP and/or read the article that rwoody posted. i mean we hear all the time in the news about making sure your shit is in order so no one argues over "pulling the plug" but even when that stuff IS in order there are issues raised by the article and show.

[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 10:58 PM. Reason : .]

11/26/2010 10:55:43 PM

folks need to think about do they want the Quantity of their lives

or is quality more important...

having both is rarely possible in the aftermath of a catastrophic injury or disease.

[Edited on November 26, 2010 at 11:18 PM. Reason : ok the show is pissing me off as much as i thought it would]

11/26/2010 11:05:02 PM

Quote :

"ok the show is pissing me off as much as i thought it would"

i know. haha i'm sure you didn't need to watch it. mostly referring the other people who might have little/no experience with the the topic to it.

i totally agree with what you are saying though. i mean is it really life when you are unconscious in a bed with a feeding tube, a ventilator, and 700 other machines doing everything for you??! i mean obviously the people who can't let go see that as life, but i personally hated seeing my mother that way.

11/26/2010 11:36:07 PM

when my dad found out he had pancreatic cancer, the dr wanted to continue probing even though they told him that he could go from the cancer at any time from three months to five years

then the dr found out that he had colon cancer as well and wanted to give him chemo for the colon cancer...at some point another dr got involved and told my dad that they didn't think the chemo would do anything to improve or lengthen his life, so he should consider seeking palliative care only

it was good that the second dr gave that recommendation...it kind of helped some of us come into more realistic thinking about what was really going on. eventually, my dad decided to stop taking his medications (he was taking a metformin for diabetes from the pancreatic cancer and some other things) and take it as it came. i think my dad would've been miserable if he had continued medicating--his overall health went downhill so fast when he first started getting sick, he would've had to have quit working, he wouldn't want to be a burden on the family and he probably wouldn't have been able to do anything outside of the house for very long--so it was the best decision for my family


that being said, i don't know that i would make the same decision...it would probably depend on my actual condition and what else was going on in my life at the time. my end of life care plan for if i ever become unresponsive will probably not include life support. if i was in the position to decide whether or not to take a loved one off of life support, i would probably choose how i think that person would choose. i would probably also try to support their decisions if they were in a position of considering whether or not to simply stop treatment instead

11/26/2010 11:54:05 PM

I think for the pull the plug situation its always best to try to decide for yourself long before it becomes an immediate problem. And although my mother is in fine health atm, she has made it clear both to my brother and I what she would want to happen if the situation ever came to it.

Quote :

"He is very mad that they didn't tell him, that she probably wouldn't survive, go take a vacation and have a great time"

I feel like, if I ever get difficult to treat cancer or something really serious/fatal, this is the way I'd want to go. I'd rather live it up for the short term, than fight a losing battle. On the other hand, if it was all of a sudden car wreck coma or something, I think I'd be fine staying plugged in for as long as insurance held out. Although I'm sure all these thoughts are subject to change with time and experience.

Quote :

"We treat animals better than people. There are very good euthanasia methods available now, but we force people to use messy alternatives."

*except in Oregon where they have physician assisted suicide I believe.

11/27/2010 2:03:14 AM

^yes, there is voluntary euthanasia for humans in oregon.

and washington, i think

11/27/2010 2:09:39 AM

After age 75 or 80, just let me go.

11/27/2010 9:31:17 AM

Quote :

"can you elaborate more? sorry haha...not trying to pick on you or anything but you are one of the few that has this viewpoint in the thread!"

Not dying it pretty high on my to do list. That's why I wear a seat belt and takes vitamins, etc. Are most people perfectly content with the idea?

11/27/2010 11:41:34 AM

^ no but what is the point of being unconscious on tubes/ventilators/etc for years on end? is that really living?

11/27/2010 5:57:33 PM

if you dont know whats going on, then no, it isnt living. i would never want to be a vegetable

11/27/2010 6:24:26 PM

Quote :

"no but what is the point of being unconscious on tubes/ventilators/etc for years on end? is that really living?"

I plan on eventually waking up.

11/27/2010 7:01:13 PM

I'll take hospice care and get stuff off my bucket list before I'm through. I refuse to be hooked up to a machine for months on end. Hopefully my loved ones will read my will and follow through. I'll get a DNR if I legally must, as well.

11/27/2010 7:20:54 PM

Quote :

"when my dad found out he had pancreatic cancer, the dr wanted to continue probing even though they told him that he could go from the cancer at any time from three months to five years then the dr found out that he had colon cancer as well and wanted to give him chemo for the colon cancer...at some point another dr got involved and told my dad that they didn't think the chemo would do anything to improve or lengthen his life, so he should consider seeking palliative care only it was good that the second dr gave that recommendation...it kind of helped some of us come into more realistic thinking about what was really going on. eventually, my dad decided to stop taking his medications (he was taking a metformin for diabetes from the pancreatic cancer and some other things) and take it as it came. i think my dad would've been miserable if he had continued medicating--his overall health went downhill so fast when he first started getting sick, he would've had to have quit working, he wouldn't want to be a burden on the family and he probably wouldn't have been able to do anything outside of the house for very long--so it was the best decision for my family that being said, i don't know that i would make the same decision...it would probably depend on my actual condition and what else was going on in my life at the time. my end of life care plan for if i ever become unresponsive will probably not include life support. if i was in the position to decide whether or not to take a loved one off of life support, i would probably choose how i think that person would choose. i would probably also try to support their decisions if they were in a position of considering whether or not to simply stop treatment instead"

Wow, my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer at the end of July. I left school for the semester to be with him. He has refused all chemo/surgery/treatments whatsoever and says there's no point in fighting for a few extra months of misery just to be 'alive'. He is currently at home, on hospice care. He quit taking his diabetes medication, and now takes morphine for the pain and promethazine for the nausea. He barely eats/drinks anything and has lost so much weight and is at this point completely bedridden. About a month ago I helped him into a wheelchair so he could go into our pool and look around. That was the last time he left the bedroom.

There's been so many questions i've had that nobody can really answer. How much longer will he have? What will my life be like without my dad? How will I be able to run the company and take care of my mom and sister after he dies? These are questions that nobody really knows. Dad could live another month, or he could die tomorrow....His health has declined so fast that just being gone a few days you can noticeably tell he's deteriorated.

What's sad is he just lost his own mom and dad, my grandparents. My grandma died in 2008, and grandpa this january. After he passes it will just be my mother and sister, and I feel responsible for them both.

My grandma was also diagnosed with cancer, and she refused any treatment and died from it. She was very ill and in pain before she died. We kept her at her home until about 3 weeks before she died when she wanted to go to a nursing home. She walked into the nursing home by herself and was dead 3 weeks later. It makes me wonder about my dad, as he is unable to walk. I have a feeling this is going to be a very sad christmas.

My grandpa was in teh nursing home for several years and was pretty much a vegetable, but not in any pain. He died in his sleep.

If I were diagnosed with something serious like that, id prob opt out of any surgery or treatment unless it were detected very early and minor. There is no reason to prolong suffering if its your time to go


Can I ask how long did your father survive from the time he was diagnosed? They say the average is 3-6 months. My dad has lasted 5 months so far since discovering he was in stage 3 pancreatic cancer. I would very much like him to make it one last christmas with us, but he gets worse every day and christmas now just seems so far away....

11/28/2010 10:03:37 PM

he started getting sick in november (tumor was collapsing his bile duct) but it wasn't until april when they put a permanent stent in that we got an official diagnosis. in retrospect, that seems like a really long time to give us a diagnosis..he passed in late june, so two months after the diagnosis and seven months after he started getting sick. he didn't stop taking his medications until late may, so it was only a month after he stopped taking the medications until he went. it's a really unpredictable thing.

11/28/2010 10:24:20 PM

Quote :

"ugh this topic is best discussed in person.........preferably with a beer or 3 in hand"

11/28/2010 11:47:47 PM

Quote :

"he started getting sick in november (tumor was collapsing his bile duct) but it wasn't until april when they put a permanent stent in that we got an official diagnosis. in retrospect, that seems like a really long time to give us a diagnosis..he passed in late june, so two months after the diagnosis and seven months after he started getting sick. he didn't stop taking his medications until late may, so it was only a month after he stopped taking the medications until he went. it's a really unpredictable thing. "

my dad had a similar procedure with the stint about the 2nd week of october. He did not take the surgery well at all, he has come up a little bit since then but its really good days/bad days and more and more bad days. My dad has stopped taking his diabetes meds a while ago. I guess he decided whats the point cause it wasn't controlling his blood sugar anyways

11/29/2010 12:19:31 AM

I don't ever want to be the cause of financial/emotional stress n my loved ones. And I don't want them to have to make any tough decisions on my behalf. If I am not conscious, I urge them to pull the plug as soon as it is brought up as an option.

11/29/2010 10:09:05 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/nov/28/scientists-reverse-ageing-mice-humans

11/29/2010 10:20:09 AM

That's what I'm talking about.
Bunch of mother fuckers ready to die up in this thread.

11/29/2010 10:53:19 AM

^^ interesting article, for sure.

but reversing aging does not equal reversing damage done by disease, injury, etc.

^ or maybe just people willing to be realistic, given a set of circumstances.

[Edited on November 29, 2010 at 6:04 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2010 6:03:43 PM

You know what to do.

11/29/2010 7:31:32 PM

added to my topics. i'm much too tired to read/discuss this now.

11/29/2010 8:33:58 PM

Quote :

"maybe just people willing to be realistic, given a set of circumstances. "

What circumstances? I mean, there could be a lot of major advances in modern medicine in the future. Not sure why you guys are all so eager to pull the plug.

11/30/2010 11:02:42 AM

Having watched someone I love slowly die, I wouldn't want to prolong the process once I reached a point where it's pretty obvious my quality of life wouldn't come back. Yes, medical advances happen, but when I'm at a point where I might have a year to live if machines do everything for me, science isn't likely to come up with a panacea in that time frame. I would rather just go home and heave palliative care than spend my last months in a hospital wreaking havoc on my family's emotions.

11/30/2010 11:15:11 AM

You could always freeze yourself.

11/30/2010 11:24:56 AM

I never want to be imprisoned in my own body. If there's no quality of life, pull the plug on me.

11/30/2010 4:40:22 PM

^^ even when your body is ravaged by disease and not simply old age? in hopes that some new treatment develops? i mean what if you had Alzheimers or Parkinsons or some type of cancer that had already been treated, but not sent into remission. you'd still want to stay on machines in hopes that one day they'd find some way to bring you back? seriously?

i mean i get maybe being frozen in old age (well sort of but not really...but it seems more accessible to me than staying on a ventilator after having a debilitating brain injury or something) but i agree with ^^^, ^. and i think your use of the word "eager" is misplaced. no one is EAGER to pull the plug...its not like it is a fun/easy thing to do.

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 5:18 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2010 5:16:22 PM

I'd more likely want to get frozen if I had some disease vs old age since I have more confidence in science curing a disease vs reversing old age. If the disease is not sent into remission why is it considered treated?

11/30/2010 6:25:22 PM

i guess i meant treated as in given treatment. remission in cancer, for example, doesn't necessarily mean "cured." it usually means just that it is responding to treatment (shrinking, or is being controlled, etc). so i guess i just meant treatment, failed or otherwise...but not totally cured (like i think if you have cancer after 5+ years w/o a relapse or something, some doctors call you "cured")

so would you be frozen BEFORE the disease debilitated your body? like, if you read the post above about what my mom went through, would you just freeze yourself at a diagnosis? or first try the chemo type treatments (which also kill you, make you vulnerable to normally routine infections which can ultimately kill you, etc) and then freeze upon those not working?? or freeze upon becoming a "vegetable"? or at the end stages of fighting the disease...when patients can go into multi-system organ failure, etc. or what if you had a brain injury? would you still want to be kept alive or frozen? because someday they might be able to fix the damage or grow a new brain or something? i think i also made a thread awhile ago about cryogenic freezing...it is another topic which really fascinates me (lol..i am a weirdo).


[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 6:44 PM. Reason : .]

11/30/2010 6:39:44 PM

Weirdo....

If I was young I'd probably go ahead with the chemo. If I was older and it had a lower chance of itworking I'd probably freeze myself.

If I had a brain injury I'd be fine with being kept alive assuming my condition wasn't worsening. If so, freezing seems like the best route.

11/30/2010 9:54:35 PM