I hate hearing this from older guys (mostly late 50s and older). They go on and on about how you can't work on your own car now because you need a lot of specialized equipment. In most routine cases this is simply not true. If you have the internet and a $30 cheapo OBD II scanner you can figure out the vast majority of common problems like o2 sensors. At most you need a $100ish high end universal tool. On more specialized high end cars resources such as the internet becomes more important. Sometimes you might need some dealer scanner but there are people who have figure out work-arounds.

This guy across the street from my parents (in his early 70s) went on and on about all this one time, how he could used to do everything with a timing light, vacuum gauge, screwdrivers etc. But it's still not all that complicated, not for "normal" basic cars.

12/12/2010 4:29:02 PM

LOL...I'd almost rather a backyard guy with some ingenuity and some good work-arounds diagnose something than for some dealer schmuck with the high-end scantools. Necessity is the mother of invention, and helps to develop good working knowledge of shit.

12/12/2010 4:32:29 PM

They say respect your elders and one should. That old guy could have done some sweet ass stuff in the hay day of his youth. He enjoys to support you in being.a wrencher and he relates to you by the way that he used to work and figure out things. As people get older priorities change. He probably has grand.children and some other new found hobby that lead him to his happiness and thus the life he lives. Also, the brain does detiorate over time, so although he could have been an awesome mechanic back in the day, nowadays he's tired etc and just plain Jane old.


But I must say I do hear the same statements from people and although sometimes any of the above is the case, it could be particularly ignorant people. Or the new cars don't interest them. Their are so many factors that play into this topic.

But I do know I always respect my elders they have so much to say, just be sure to listen closely.

12/12/2010 5:04:24 PM

You can still do everything with timing light, vacuum gauge, and screwdrivers for the most part. Its not like the engine concept has changed. suck squeeze bang blow. gas spark.

12/12/2010 5:05:37 PM

it's not about respecting your elders. it's about older people being either too intimidated or too lazy to keep up with the times

12/12/2010 6:03:33 PM

You already know the answers to your questions. Why ask

12/12/2010 6:10:23 PM

the first post contained no questions, only statements.

12/12/2010 6:24:41 PM

I think it has actually simplified again. I think early 80's domestic cars were about the biggest PITAs to work on but now with the OBDII I think it is quite a bit more simple. A lot of diagnostic steps have been removed.

12/12/2010 7:12:11 PM

Lol

12/12/2010 9:23:06 PM

You'll say the same thing one day. And for every schmuck that refuses to buy a scanner, there are 80-year-olds that have mastered the internet just like you and have 67 years of working experience to back it up. This is the heyday of retirement, and a lot of guys are really taking advantage of it to become masters of their hobby.

12/12/2010 9:36:25 PM

I think of working on my boat as being pretty similar to working on old cars. Very similar to the classic Bronco I owned. When you spotted a problem you could just look at shit, see how it all worked, and figure out what was wrong pretty easily. Then you just fixed it. All this computer shit is a different beast.

It seems like over half the time when you get a CEL there is nothing wrong with the vehicle itself or any of the crucial components; it's a problem with the damn oxygen sensors or the computer junk. I think I'd be much more thankful for the benefits of O2 sensors and junk if that componetry failed less often than the hardware that was actually necessary for the vehicle to run properly.

I look forward to the days that computer hardware is as solid as the mechanical hardware in a car.

12/12/2010 10:44:31 PM

^ you're forgetting that "back in the day" engines required regular valve adjustments, idle speed checks, carb rebuilds, whatever. whereas now on a typical car you change an o2 sensor every 100k or something. normal modern engines require basically zero maintainence for 100k miles, beyond fluids

Quote :

"I think it has actually simplified again. I think early 80's domestic cars were about the biggest PITAs to work on but now with the OBDII I think it is quite a bit more simple."

the early fuel injection and emissions systems had so many solenoids and vacuum lines plus depending on the design you had a bunch of ignition stuff to set or adjust. I agree that cars have gotten simpler in the last few years. with coil on plug, variable valve timing, and drive by wire lots of engines don't have EGR or idle air control valves anymore. you've got plugs every 60 or 100k and that's it

12/12/2010 11:02:42 PM

Quote :

"You can still do everything with timing light, vacuum gauge, and screwdrivers for the most part. Its not like the engine concept has changed. suck squeeze bang blow. gas spark."

I'd like to see you try to diagnose a misfire or a "catalyst efficiency below threshold" on a v12 twin turbo AMG Benz w/a screw driver and a timing light. OK, I feel generous, you can have a vacuum gauge too. ROFL

12/13/2010 1:22:08 AM

Quote :

"you're forgetting that "back in the day" engines required regular valve adjustments, idle speed checks, carb rebuilds, whatever. whereas now on a typical car you change an o2 sensor every 100k or something. normal modern engines require basically zero maintainence for 100k miles, beyond fluids"

Valve adjustments? Ummm....what cars don't still require valve checks/adjustments?
Idle speed? That used to be a screw on the carb. If you were idling high you turned the screw until the engine was about to cut off and then you turned it back a little bit until it was idling smoothly. That was your idle adjustment.
Carb rebuilds are more a factor of how often you don't run the vehicle than how often you do. Whatever though...I'm a huge fan of fuel injection and I'm glad that even aftermarket FI systems are relatively affordable now.

You're right...normal modern engines require basically zero maintenance for 100k miles and that's a huge leap in technology. My complaint isn't with modern engines. It's with the computer/electronic/OBD junk that costs more to fix than a typical carb adjustment or vac leak repair of yesteryear.

12/13/2010 2:51:34 AM

Quote :

"Ummm....what cars don't still require valve checks/adjustments?"

you think all the cars with 150k+ miles on them have ever had their valves adjusted? I know my Corolla with 190k sure hasn't.

Quote :

"Idle speed? That used to be a screw on the carb. If you were idling high you turned the screw until the engine was about to cut off and then you turned it back a little bit until it was idling smoothly. That was your idle adjustment."

yes and on fuel injected cars sometimes you had to adjust the idle screw, or check/clean/replace the idle air control valve. now with drive-by-wire there is zero maintenance, checking, or adjustment. you never have to check or adjust timing on modern cars either, because the crank and cam angle sensors are installed in an idiot-proof way (those sensors do seem to fail semi frequently though). there's no distributor ca, or rotor to replace on modern ignition systems. It's frickin sweet.

Quote :

"My complaint isn't with modern engines. It's with the computer/electronic/OBD junk that costs more to fix than a typical carb adjustment or vac leak repair of yesteryear."

cheapest OBD scanners cost about $30 shipped http://www.amazon.com/Autel-MaxiScan-MS300-OBD-II-Scan/dp/B001LHVOVK . 90% of the time you are just reading and clearing basic codes. I agree that some of the manufacturer-specific codes for other systems (braking, airbag, etc) are not easy to deal with for a DIYer. From what I've seen though there is a trend to standardizing things to hopefully make repairs easier... it's one of the reasons why all new cars use the same CAN diagnostic protocol now, as opposed to when OBD 2 first came out.

12/13/2010 9:20:34 AM

I think he is referring to something more along the lines of parts to fix the problem such as a $250 maf sensor or a $150 O2 sensor. Not the scan tool. But for what all this stuff does it's pretty awesome.

12/13/2010 9:29:14 AM

yeah I hear you on that.

12/13/2010 9:50:35 AM

Quote :

"I'd like to see you try to diagnose a misfire or a "catalyst efficiency below threshold" on a v12 twin turbo AMG Benz w/a screw driver and a timing light. OK, I feel generous, you can have a vacuum gauge too. ROFL"

Swapping coil packs around!!! oh wow!!!! YES, YES, Youre the man now dog!

You can get the error codes on a civic to flash with a paper clip sucka!!!! Do i get one of those?

12/13/2010 10:38:45 AM

Subarus supposedly have jumper wires you can connect then rub your head an pay your belly and the code comes out.

12/13/2010 11:36:01 AM

Quote :

" pay your belly "

12/13/2010 11:38:36 AM

I was thrilled to learn today that my Blazer's ABS system will flash its error codes out for you if you ground one of the connector pins, and will also cycle the solenoids the same way. I'd put off completely bleeding that thing forever because I didn't want to pay the dealer to do it.

12/13/2010 11:56:27 AM

Quinn cracks me up

12/13/2010 1:53:16 PM

Since cars do require less maintenance, car makers have to come up with new ways to keep their dealers satiated. I see a horrible trend away from industry standards to proprietary computer systems and even proprietary fluids...anything they can make a buck on.

And call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'd say the majority of manufactures purposefully introduce defects that will occur outside the warranty window but not be severe enough to warrant a government-mandated recall or widespread publicity. At the very least there is no incentive to make cars that are reliable in the long-term, and certainly no reason to make them widely or easily serviceable for years to come. Even the famed reliability of Honda and Toyota is mostly marketing hype, as so many found out this year.

I doubt any of the cars in showrooms today will be operational 50 years from now. No more barn finds, because no one will bother keeping them.

12/13/2010 5:58:58 PM

Quote :

"Since cars do require less maintenance, car makers have to come up with new ways to keep their dealers satiated. I see a horrible trend away from industry standards to proprietary computer systems and even proprietary fluids...anything they can make a buck on."

Fragmentation in the industry was actually a lot worse 20 years ago, so the trend is still towards standardization. that's why OBD II has continued to simplify further as a protocol and SAE keeps releasing revised lists of diagnostic parameters. The proprietary fluids are proprietary because in many (not all) cases they are engineered better for the application, like some OEM transmission fluids/gear oils.

Quote :

"At the very least there is no incentive to make cars that are reliable in the long-term, and certainly no reason to make them widely or easily serviceable for years to come. "

despite some exceptions cars keep getting more and more reliable and long lasting on average. Interiors last longer. Switches last longer. Sensors, solenoids, valves, injectors etc all last longer. Look at 70s and 80s power windows for example, or door handles. modern cars have much longer lasting door handles and power window switches with better designs. a lot of the problems with cold solder joints on circuit boards are nowhere near as common as they used to be.

sensors last longer too... look at 80s throttle position sensors. they were all potentiometers button/plunger looking things that degrade over time and have too much resistance. now many of them are inductive type which last longer, and are sealed into drive-by-wire units which last well over 100k.

12/13/2010 7:28:37 PM

Get with the times, old man! OBDII is obsolete, barely adequate for servicing the latest cars, an afterthought added for government compliance. Lord help you if you trigger the radio/airbag/door chime whirlygig lockout during the course of regular service.

Often the proprietary fluids are better. But they are used as a crutch. Manufacturers use power steering fluid that operates in a greater temperature range because they can't be bothered to engineer a system that actually operates cool enough. It boils the normal fluid? Oh shit, I guess we'll have to switch to Pentosin XXX...X

I agree with the second paragraph.

Maybe I'm just a dreamer who thinks one day you'll be able unplug a single wiring harness(easily without breaking your fingernails) and remove a few easy to reach bolts to pull an engine. I fantasize about nice modular designs where you don't have to remove 5 other parts to get to the one you want. Thank god for serpentine belts at least. I wince when I see an otherwise well-thought-out design that is blocked by a retrofit alternator bracket some CAD fag slapped on there without any oversight.

[Edited on December 13, 2010 at 7:45 PM. Reason : .]

12/13/2010 7:43:13 PM

My uncle is a cool blend of old and new. My Jeep started throwing a CEL after I ran through some massive standing water one day. AdvanceAuto guy scans it and it's a generic evap system code, he suggest the gas cap. I roll my eyes and move on. I take it to my uncle the 45 year old mechanic and tell him what the code was and he puts his smoke machine on it, which I thought was cool. He finds the leak back at the evap canister, a hose that was split at the end. He then proceeds to rummage through his shop and finds a spark plug boot that fits to fix it. I usually leave his shop awed at some of the stuff he pulls off.

12/13/2010 9:27:28 PM

evap system codes caused by a loose gas cap are extremely common

12/13/2010 9:32:31 PM

I like being able to monitor ignition timing, injector cycles, EGT's, TPS, MAF signals etc. and datalog with a decent portable scanner. That, and newer platforms have so much more grip and generally much better handling.

The only thing I don't like are excessive engine covers and having to marry/decouple components w/a computer, instead of just plugging stuff in.

12/14/2010 7:20:23 AM

I agree with you on the plastic engine TRIM being a PAIN. BUT AT LEAST YOU KNOW YOU GOT THE V6 WHEN YOU POP THE HOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

12/14/2010 7:22:33 AM

ha yeah on my Q45 when you pop the hood you see like several square feet of plastic, the Infiniti symbol, and a "V8" in big letters

12/14/2010 8:09:09 AM

Not the 996, can't find a single superfluous cover for anything, anywhere. Maybe that's how they keep the weight so low... It's nice actually, particularly after working on an 03 Jetta eeeww, the starter is encased in 2 different pieces of plastic sleeves, as is the battery...

12/14/2010 7:04:56 PM