When applying for a job, how do you determine expected salary?

Example:

* Applying for a position similar to my current role, but for a better company and with a focus on technology/web strategy
* They already know my current salary
* I already know the pay grade for the position

My roomie says a 10k increase request is standard. I know that figure is well within the range for the pay grade. I think I could probably negotiate more than a 10k increase, but I don't want to sound greedy.

Question: Is it okay to leave the field blank? Should I request a 10k increase? Or should I ask for a little more than that and cross my fingers?

Thanks for any insight!

12/19/2010 9:26:13 AM

Ask for 15

12/19/2010 9:35:36 AM

That's what I was thinking. I think 15k is reasonable, but roomie said otherwise. I don't want to lowball myself though.

12/19/2010 9:43:33 AM

put "Negotiable" in the field, and hammer it out when they offer the job to you.

12/19/2010 10:12:07 AM

^i agree. They already have a figure in mind for the position, so it's best to appear flexible and then negotiate when you know they really want you.

12/19/2010 10:59:50 AM

I wouldn't put "negotiable" unless you know they will accept that. Most places will want at least a ballpark figure, and if you leave it blank, or write in negotiable, they will overlook your application. If you must write negotiable, at least put your 15k+ figure in there, and then put negotiable. But employers know that your figure is negotiable. It's expected that you put more than you will ultimately get. Several jobs that I have applied for have specifically stated, "applications without expected salary will not be considered."

12/19/2010 11:08:49 AM

^^ ding ding ding

you don't want to risk them tossing your application out, and you don't want them to come in there and have you nailed down to a specific number

12/19/2010 11:09:14 AM

I've been through three rounds of interviews already, so it seems as though I just need to be as direct as possible at this point. I'd hate for them to go for another candidate simply because they were 5k cheaper than me, hence my hesitation. This is an extremely competitive company, so that's a huge concern.

"Negotiable" definitely seems like a bit of a cop-out ... because while it's a true statement, it should be pretty much understood that salaries should be negotiated.

^ They won't simply throw out my resume, as we've already arranged for the fourth round of interviews. But I'd hate for a 5k difference to make the difference between me and a slightly cheaper candidate.

[Edited on December 19, 2010 at 11:26 AM. Reason : s]

12/19/2010 11:15:04 AM

I always put negotiable when first applying but if you're late in the interview process I don't see anything wrong with asking near the top of the pay grade especially if you have the experience to back it up. I've only had to negotiate my salary once but I def played hard ball when I did.

12/19/2010 11:23:25 PM

going with the more open initial question....

I'm going to look at what the job market is like (2.5 years from now so will be quite different I hope), and what the options are (based on class rank, passing the patent bar / and nc bar, potential working locations etc.). right now I'm thinking 110k min. (with what I'm aiming at I can get ~100k from the fed's + bonus + benefits out the ass).

But we'll see what happens by then. A lot of time before I have to start figuring it out fully... (well at least a year and a half before I have to start considering offers and such)

(yay patent law!)

12/19/2010 11:47:49 PM

Quote :

"benefits out the ass"

expect those benefits to be more like the private sector by then...especially new employees...with new employees, benefits will not be as generous and retirement will probably change also (you have to contribute more).

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason : e]

12/20/2010 12:00:41 AM

Quote :

"right now I'm thinking 110k min. (yay patent law!)"

Are you in NC? I don't think that figure is the norm.

12/20/2010 1:25:59 AM

^,^^No matter, guys. His wife made a thread about how totally loaded she was--she's thinking about opening a business overseas just for fun!

So the two of them are doing great!

And at this point, his opinion on anything serious hardly matters. But ask him about some fancy shit...I bet he knows what's up.

12/20/2010 2:11:14 AM

[quote]right now I'm thinking 110k min.[code]

Haha...you're funny.

12/20/2010 7:51:53 AM

I have a somewhat related question. I know the pay range and benefits package. It would be my first position with the company and they typically hire at the mid grade range (50%) -- would I be justified asking a bit higher because I have that MBA? This will be my first negotiation post-grad school..

12/20/2010 9:22:48 AM

IMO, an MBA justifies a higher starting salary. Unless, of course, it's a given that you should have an MBA for this position.

12/20/2010 9:29:08 AM

93-123k is the starting salary for a patent attorney in the USTPO (fed. job), even now they have 3 general ones open and ~13 specialized ones open.

(patent attorneys start at a higher pay grade and get a bigger bonus 20-40k starting)

I would assume that the private sector, in 2 years, will probably be paying at least as much as the feds. if not more. I didn't just invent this number. (RCOL adjustment as well)

yeah I wouldn't expect that amount for NC really. Odds are I'll find something in / near DC where the cost of living is quite a bit higher unfortunately

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM. Reason : damn expensive]

Quote :

"So the two of them are doing great! And at this point, his opinion on anything serious hardly matters. But ask him about some fancy shit...I bet he knows what's up."

yes, that's it, I control and dictate everything my wife bullshits about on here all the time. she does actually have some bank, as for the import/export thing she would of course be starting small scale and specialty only. but then again why should I be attempting to justify her ideas to people that are prone to making wild jumps and assumptions about others.

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 10:49 AM. Reason : eheh.]

12/20/2010 10:38:18 AM

whatever you can get away with....good luck!

12/20/2010 11:09:46 AM

exactly

12/20/2010 11:11:11 AM

Quote :

"Arab13: yes, that's it, I control and dictate everything my wife bullshits about on here all the time. she does actually have some bank, as for the import/export thing she would of course be starting small scale and specialty only. but then again why should I be attempting to justify her ideas to people that are prone to making wild jumps and assumptions about others."

? I don't know what you're talking about.

I was just reminding people that you are that dude who married that lady who actually started a thread about how much money she has. Since the thread got deleted, I think it's important to remind people about it...since it kinda helps to explain your douchiness.

I mean, you don't even post that often anymore. But you come back to hijack somebody else's thread with your salary?!? You barely even bothered to pretend like it was advice for iheartkisses. AHA

12/20/2010 11:51:51 AM

^ Thanks, Bridget. I was going to comment that I wasn't quite sure how the 110k salary comment was relevant to the overall discussion. It just seemed like irrelevant bragging.

12/20/2010 11:59:06 AM

simply answering this:

Quote :

"When applying for a job, how do you determine expected salary?"

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 12:31 PM. Reason : but i see that was over looked]

12/20/2010 12:28:27 PM

Dudes bragging about the money he's GOING to make in 2.5 years...

Shit man I can't WAIT until I get my neurosurgery position at Duke in 12 years. I'll probably ask for 1.5 mil/year which is a little above average. LOOK UP THE AVERAGE SALARY!

12/20/2010 12:45:21 PM

Whoops! This isn't chit chat.

[Edited on December 20, 2010 at 12:53 PM. Reason : s]

12/20/2010 12:50:28 PM

the internet is for dick measuring.

12/20/2010 1:13:25 PM

I'd like to apologize for bringing up unrelated stuff in this thread.

I'm sorry. I thought it was funny.

12/20/2010 7:34:07 PM

Aw, it was deleted? I must have missed it. I don't slum in chat chit too often.

12/20/2010 8:29:35 PM

ask for what you want and act like you have a backbone.

12/23/2010 6:06:41 PM

Done and done. Asked for 15k more

We'll see what happens

12/23/2010 10:51:22 PM

Good luck!

12/24/2010 9:02:54 AM

how much money did she claim to have?

12/24/2010 10:41:21 AM

Who? Me? I didn't post it because I don't feel comfortable putting it in a public forum. Via PM, yeah, but not ITT.

12/24/2010 1:02:34 PM

Nah, I was referring to what Bridgette wrote. Was just curious how much loot this G.O.D. chick was holding.

12/26/2010 5:18:18 PM

You have to ask for what you want. Good job on requesting what you deserve. For me, I have always asked for twice of what I really wanted, so that they would negotiate down to what I wanted originally. If you asked for 15k more, expect them to counter with 7.5 right off the bat, assuming you don't have counter offers for the 15k increase on hand. In your particular situation, if you wanted 15k more, then asking for a 30k increase would seem too aggressive without legitimate counter offers. In that case, I would ask for 20k more, and settle with the negotiated rate of 10k increase. This all depends on both parties involved, but in my experience, most companies will cut your request (if fair) in half initially and play hardball from there on out. This negotiation method has worked well for me thus far. Since graduating from NCSU, I have increased my salary significantly, by taking opportunities as they arise, and pushing the envelope during the negotiation stages. Just make sure to keep your options open until you sign anything and good things can happen. Remember, you are a product to be bought and sold, so make them believe it.

[Edited on December 27, 2010 at 9:17 AM. Reason : -]

12/27/2010 8:54:51 AM

BTTT for an update and a question.

The position was frozen just as they were about to present me with an offer. Now the position has been re-opened and the HR contact called me late Friday to let me know that they're extending a contract role. Another person in their HR department informed me that she didn't know the exact rate, but that the hourly rate would pretty well exceed the salary ($70k) to adjust for the benefits package.

So, how should a $70k salary translate to an hourly rate, adjusted for benefits?

I should hear from them either today or tomorrow. I'm getting antsy!

3/7/2011 8:09:06 AM

Assuming you work 40 hrs/week, that should be around $33/hr plus benefits.

3/7/2011 8:11:14 AM

Yes, but how much after adjusted for benefits? They compensate contract employees more to make up for the benefits package. Which, at this company, is about 25 days in PTO for first-year employees, plus great insurance.

[Edited on March 7, 2011 at 8:14 AM. Reason : l]

3/7/2011 8:12:54 AM

^plus I'm assuming no 401k match as a contract employee? I'd say that the lack of vacation plus no 401k match would require at least $10,000 more for me if I was comparing the roles which would mean ~$38/hr to compare to the direct $70,000 job. Now, this all depends on what your current job situation is like including pay and benefits. If this is a huge step forward for you in responsibility, resume roles, and pay even at $70,000 then you might consider taking it closer to the $70,000 but talk about when you might be able to become a direct employee there.

3/7/2011 8:24:59 AM

It's an 18-month contract that, according to the HR contact, would be offered as perm quite a bit earlier than that, based on experience.

3/7/2011 8:40:32 AM

hmm, 5 weeks of PTO would be around $7000, insurance would be around $3000, plus other stuff. I would think that would take it down to around $27/hr.

3/7/2011 8:41:23 AM

No, they would overcompensate to make up for the bennies. So the hourly rate would go up, not down. Just wanted to get an idea of the value of a benefits package ... and I had no clue as to the value of a benefits package. 10k sounds like a smart figure to use. So 70k would go up to approx 80k, from the sounds of it? That's not too bad. Time will tell.

Thanks for your help!

[Edited on March 7, 2011 at 8:50 AM. Reason : .]

3/7/2011 8:47:08 AM

Yeah, my company estimated my benefits at around $5k - being high deductible insurance, HSA, dental, life, 401k crap, basically all the normal benefits - so between 5 and 10k per year should be about right.

3/7/2011 9:00:21 AM

Quote :

"hmm, 5 weeks of PTO would be around $7000, insurance would be around $3000, plus other stuff. I would think that would take it down to around $27/hr."

I think you misunderstand her question. She is saying the direct job with all the benefits pays $70,000. Based on that, what should she expect for the same job but via a contract without the direct benefits meaning she should get compensated more.

And the reason I threw $10k out as a number is because I don't know what their normal 401k package is. If they are matching $1:$1 up to 5% then that is 5% of $70,000 you are missing out on with the contract job or $3500. 25 PTO/TOWP days comes out to $6600 so that is already right at ~$10k increase without taking into account medical/dental. I assume they still have something insurance-wise for the contract worker so I really didn't have anything to compare there.

[Edited on March 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM. Reason : .]

3/7/2011 9:21:01 AM

I pulled up this thread just to see how long this has been dragged out. The interview process has stretched across a seven month span now. Should know something a bit more final in the next couple of weeks.

Pretty funny, IMO.

4/22/2011 12:43:22 PM

wow. I don't have the patience to wait anywhere near that long

4/22/2011 12:48:48 PM

The joys of a large company. Hiring for this department was frozen for three months while the company underwent massive restructuring. I've heard similar stories from others employed by the company ... stories of the interview/hiring process taking between 6 months and a year. Pretty crazy considering this company doesn't require security clearance.

First interview was in October. Last meeting with the team was last week.

4/22/2011 12:52:16 PM

You have to figure out just what that $70k salary entails. Is the job 40 hours a week or more like 50-60? Does the company offer bonuses or any type of incentive for working extra hours (common in consulting, rare elsewhere)? If you're expected to work 50 hours a week for the position, then will you get paid flat rate or time and a half for the extra hours?

Do you know what the company matches for 401k or company stock options? What do they typically offer for paid vacation the first year? Do they offer decent medical / dental /vision insurance?

For a $70k position at a company with decent benefits, I think I'd bump up the pay $10-15k and ask for $39-42 dollars an hour. They'd pay a staff augmentation firm way more than that for a person to temporarily fill the position, so it's not a cost they should balk at. If you are expected to work a fair amount of overtime, you will want to drop your requested hourly rate slightly. If you're expected to work more than 20% overtime, I wouldn't drop your offer below $35 an hour so that you're not giving them incentive to load you up with their shit work.

4/22/2011 2:08:39 PM

Quote :

"You have to figure out just what that $70k salary entails. Is the job 40 hours a week or more like 50-60? Does the company offer bonuses or any type of incentive for working extra hours (common in consulting, rare elsewhere)? If you're expected to work 50 hours a week for the position, then will you get paid flat rate or time and a half for the extra hours? "

According to everyone in the department, it's basically a 40 hour week. Some will be longer based on project flow and increased project demands, but the typical work week is 40 hours. No incentive for working extra hours.

Quote :

" Do you know what the company matches for 401k or company stock options? What do they typically offer for paid vacation the first year? Do they offer decent medical / dental /vision insurance?"

Not sure the exact amount that the company matches for 401k. Employees get two weeks paid vaca in the first year, then three weeks after the first full year (standard in my industry). Excellent med/dental/vision. VERY affordable childcare services. Free theme park tickets. Full college reimbursement (must be approved by supervisor, but could apply to an MBA or MFA).

Quote :

"For a $70k position at a company with decent benefits, I think I'd bump up the pay $10-15k and ask for $39-42 dollars an hour. They'd pay a staff augmentation firm way more than that for a person to temporarily fill the position, so it's not a cost they should balk at. If you are expected to work a fair amount of overtime, you will want to drop your requested hourly rate slightly. If you're expected to work more than 20% overtime, I wouldn't drop your offer below $35 an hour so that you're not giving them incentive to load you up with their shit work."

They will def pay a staff augmentation firm way more than that. My friend was a designer for the same department and made $100 an hour ... couldn't imagine what they were paying the staffing agency for him.

[Edited on April 22, 2011 at 2:46 PM. Reason : s]

4/22/2011 2:39:57 PM

http://glassdoor.com is a website where people go on and post what they make (anonymously) at all sorts of companies. To look at the values, you just have to add one (you can put a shitty hourly job if you want).

I'd look for the place and position you're applying for on there, or look for similar positions at other companies. It shows you all sorts of info, like the min and max of people who've offered up numbers and how that compares to similar positions elsewhere. Figure out where you're coming from and what your experience is worth and pick a number in the range that you think is reasonable.

4/22/2011 3:17:16 PM

I currently am also shitting bricks waiting to hear back from a large company about a job



this sort of stress is not healthy

4/22/2011 4:42:55 PM