http://www.democracy-nc.org/downloads/VoterIDFlyer1-18-11.pdf

Quote :

"Think voter photo ID requirements are harmless? Take a closer look. Do you have a parent in a rest home or a child in college? How about a friend who cannot drive? These citizens — along with tens of thousands of other North Carolinians — will find it difficult to vote under the rules of a proposed photo ID bill that addresses a problem that does not exist. Only you can stop this costly, unneeded legislation. The Truth: Voter ID Fraud Is NOT a Problem in North Carolina. Cases of voter fraud that a photo ID would prevent are extremely rare. In fact, only 18 votes out of the 4.3 million cast in NC in 2008 were by people pretending to be someone else. So why do GOP leaders want to spend millions of our overburdened state budget on requiring people to show a photo ID each and every time they vote? Because it would shut out voters who tend not to support their party, including people of color, students and low-income citizens. This is partisan politics at its worst: undermining democracy and using state dollars to give one political party more power over the other. Learn the facts about voter photo ID and take action to say NO to this unnecessary legislation. The Facts About Voter Photo ID: ** Current laws to stop voter fraud work. It’s already a felony to vote illegally in NC or to lie when you sign in to vote. Poll observers can challenge voters and ID must be shown to register in the first place. The extremely low rates of voter fraud in North Carolina make it clear that these existing laws are effective. ** This is wasted money for an unnecessary law. A voter photo ID law will cost NC millions of dollars to implement at a time when we face a nearly $4 billion budget shortfall. What will we cut to pay for this law? New job development? Support for small businesses? School teacher positions? Public safety? Services for the elderly? Our state faces gut-wrenching budget decisions and we will have to make a choice. ** Photo ID laws reduce voter turnout for everyone. A voter photo ID law will create hassles and make lines longer for everyone, lowering turn-out even more. ** Photo ID laws unfairly affect some groups more than others. The elderly, people of color, students, low income citizens and people with disabilities are all less likely to have a driver’s license and more likely to need transportation to DMV offices to update their official ID each time they move. ** Hundreds of thousands of NC citizens do not have a photo ID with their current address on it — but they are entitled to vote under the law nonetheless. Why would we take this right away? Take Action Now! Contact your legislators and tell them to say NO to unneeded voter photo ID laws."

We're cutting NC State's budget by 15% right now, so that we can make room in the state budget for stuff like this? Over 18 votes? When this effort, if successful, will surely result in well more than that number of legitimate voters not voting.

1/19/2011 11:03:53 PM

Given the current voter laws I could easily take a poll about if people were intending to vote. If they supplied me with their name and address and established that they would not be voting I could easily go and vote in their place(if I had multiple people working with me we could avoid recognition at polling places)

Quote :

" only 18 votes out of the 4.3 million cast "

How did they determine this. They can only count the ones they caught right?

Why will the requirement to show picture ID "cost millions"? They already require you to sign in requiring you to flash an ID to the volunteers shouldn't cost any more should it?

If you are driving to the polling place you will have a valid photo id already. I wonder how many people who vote don't actually have a photo ID of any kind? I imagine it is a relatively small number and could very well be equal to the amount of fraudulent votes now (we have no way of determining either number so it is all conjecture)

The claim about students is bullshit don't they all have student ID's??

1/19/2011 11:24:12 PM

Quote :

"The claim about students is bullshit don't they all have student ID's??"

this doesn't need a comment to enjoy

1/19/2011 11:26:39 PM

Quote :

"The Truth: Voter ID Fraud Is NOT a Problem in North Carolina. Cases of voter fraud that a photo ID would prevent are extremely rare. In fact, only 18 votes out of the 4.3 million cast in NC in 2008 were by people pretending to be someone else"

Haha, is this for real?

1/19/2011 11:34:08 PM

^^Wow now you are actually fucking following me I really must have pwned your ass for you to be this riled up. How about you reply with some actual content? Most students have a photo id? true or false?

[Edited on January 19, 2011 at 11:36 PM. Reason : asdfsd]

1/19/2011 11:36:27 PM

Just checked, my student ID has no current address on it.

1/20/2011 12:00:36 AM

i'm really not following anyone around, but that was a hilarious post

actually it might not be that funny. can you pair a student id with a bill from the university that has your name and address?

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 12:21 AM. Reason : .]

1/20/2011 12:11:04 AM

I didn't see the sentence about current address in amongst all the propaganda that was being spewed. What about the other points raised?

1/20/2011 12:12:31 AM

I don't fully get this obsession either.

I could see if this were an actual problem, it'd be a no-brainer. As it is now, when I go to the polling place, half the people there (literally) are people I personally know from my neighborhood. If they were checking every single person's ID, it would take 3x as long to get in/out.

I'd think a bigger problem is just disgust/disinterest with the process, of which this rule makes substantially more difficult.

My solution would be to make the penalty for voter fraud extremely harsh. This would serve the purpose of helping to reduce fraud, keeping the voting process as smooth as possible, and not be too expensive to implement.

1/20/2011 12:13:09 AM

^ I must admit I was ready to show Id when i voted and was stunned that they didn't ask for it. Maybe a harsh penalty would work but I have a hard time believing that it would cost millions of dollars and take all this time to simply have people flash Id when they go vote.

1/20/2011 12:18:13 AM

Quote :

"I could see if this were an actual problem ... My solution would be to make the penalty for voter fraud extremely harsh."

That makes sense. And its basically what's going on now with it being a felony.

^As for costs, that doesn't sound outside the realm of reason depending on how they are implementing it. The legislatures own fiscal note came up with the cost of $5,726,500 + to implement their constitutional amendment to ban gay couples marriages from being recognized that they're considering (which is entirely a waste of time b/c they already have a law in place that says the same thing as the proposed amendment, and its an idiot thing to do to begin with, not to mention allowing more weddings doesn't exactly hurt the economy). The GOP is kind of killing any claims to fiscal responsibility they make when they're willing to drop 4 million here and 5 million there and so forth any time they want to push a partisan agenda.

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 12:28 AM. Reason : .]

1/20/2011 12:19:04 AM

What if ID's were required and there was a waiver if someone doesn't have one? At the very least it reduces the possibility of fraud and limits the amount of ballots one would need to check.

Unless the government gave away ID's for free I'm not really a fan of this, but I'm curious about why it would cost millions to implement. Can anyone offer some insight?

1/20/2011 12:24:42 AM

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=misidentified_priorities

Quote :

"In North Carolina, legislators have even vowed to pass such a measure in the first hundred days of the session, and incoming Wisconsin Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald has said a voter-ID law will be the first bill introduced in the 2011 legislative session. But despite Republican alarmism over rigged elections, voter-ID laws are a solution in search of a problem: They address an exceedingly rare type of vote fraud, cost the state money that could be used to address more pressing issues in a time of economic crisis, and serve primarily to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters -- just so politicians can influence who votes in the next election. "

Quote :

"the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in Crawford v. Marion County upheld a voter-ID law in Indiana but required states to provide IDs to those who could not afford them. By the time a state has provided free identification for anyone who needs it, educated voters, and trained poll workers on the new requirement, a voter-ID program will have cost millions of dollars, much of that a recurring expense each year. For example, Missouri's Committee on Legislative Research found that implementing a photo-ID law would cost Missouri close to $6 million in the first year and around $4 million in its second and third years."

The article explains some of the costs, and here is a Missouri General Assembly legislative fiscal note that those numbers are coming from where they are broken down in more detail:
http://www.moga.mo.gov/Oversight/OVER06/fishtm/4947-25T.ORG.htm

1/20/2011 2:04:15 PM

I can't believe that I was once a republican.


this is fucking stupid, this idea.

1/20/2011 2:10:47 PM

The only way this law will be passed is if it includes provisions to provide IDs to everyone free of charge. I don't see that happening. I don't see it being cost effective either.

1/20/2011 2:31:59 PM

I have an ID and legs that work. Why should I care if I can still vote?

1/20/2011 2:33:58 PM

Just playing devil's advocate here. They only count the voter fraud they catch. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a real way of determining how many people do it and get away with it. If there was a concerted effort by a fairly large group of people it would be very very easy to give everyone in that group a vote at a bunch of different polling places. Even as an individual if you spent enough time gathering data (the poll on voter apathy that I suggested) you could conceivably vote once in every polling place in wake county (that would be 199 votes I think).

1/20/2011 2:34:18 PM

Quote :

"The only way this law will be passed is if it includes provisions to provide IDs to everyone free of charge. I don't see that happening. I don't see it being cost effective either"

If they don't, then the law might not stand for very long. Probably long enough to get them through the 2012 election before SCOTUS could get into it though. From the article above:

Quote :

"the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in Crawford v. Marion County upheld a voter-ID law in Indiana but required states to provide IDs to those who could not afford them."

1/20/2011 2:39:10 PM

Surely Renee Ellmers victory is sufficient evidence of voter fraud Perhaps we need Voter IQ requirements more than we need Voter ID.

[Edited on January 20, 2011 at 10:39 PM. Reason : durr]

1/20/2011 10:38:39 PM

NCSU has to cut $80 million from our budget, and they are trying to spend $5 million to piss of gays, and maybe another $2-5 million more to solve a problem that doesn’t exist? And NC has one of the highest hispanic immigrant populations (the people i’m guessing the republicans are afraid of here).

1/20/2011 11:21:10 PM

I'm not sure about the associated costs, but besides time spent debating this bill, it is another case of NC GOP preferring partisan and social conservatism to any fiscal responsibility by making it a longer/more complicated process to get an abortion:

http://www.americanindependent.com/165564/n-c-right-to-life-coming-to-capital-expecting-passage-of-informed-consent-abortion-law

The NC GOP's official platform includes these:

Quote :

"Schools should encourage patriotism and the values of Western civilization. They should teach the true facts of the history of the United States."

Quote :

"We support teaching abstinence until marriage as the expected norm for sexual behavior."

Quote :

"Prisons should pay less attention to inmate comfort and more to security"

Not sure what they mean by patriotic "true facts" as opposed to regular facts or what kind of costs the curriculum changes that would involve. And not teaching true sex ed surely burdens the system more too.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/the_voter_fraud_racket_returns.html

Quote :

"Despite the fact that the Justice Department spent years in an effort to root out voter fraud that only produced a handful of prosecutions, none involving a large-scale conspiracy to steal an election, the belief that Democrats regularly steal elections through fraudulent votes is widespread. Nevertheless, this myth gets recycled every election year. Last year Wall Street Journal editorial columnist John Fund even stooped to recycling a anecdote about voter fraud in Philadelphia in 1993 -- almost verbatim -- to allege voter fraud in the New Jersey Governor's race. As a 2007 Brennan Center report put it, the possibility that someone will impersonate another person at the polls is "more rare than death by lightning." There's a reason for that: As Chris Beam points out, even if you wanted to steal an election this way, it's logistically unfeasible. Swaying the numbers in any significant way would require such a large number of well-trained co-conspirators that getting caught is a virtual certainty."

1/21/2011 2:18:03 AM

My one response would be that on the local level, voter fraud can make a big difference. In the town I live in, Scotland Neck, voter fraud was/is rampant. Numerous dead people vote each election. Also several people voted as local residents on a plot of land with a condemned house that was leveled. People from out of town were coming in and using addresses that may or may not have been in the city limits. It was a big stink, and the election was won by I think 2-3 votes for mayor. BTW, the accusations were on both sides, and perhaps if we had required an ID, some or most of that could have been averted.

As long as the poor could get a free ID, I really wouldn't mind.

1/21/2011 5:34:39 AM

I am all for this only if the DMV makes drivers licenses and identification cards free with no fees whatsoever.

1/22/2011 11:01:29 AM

What if they just required you to show your voter card if you don't have a photo Id? They already issue one (yes people could counterfeit easily). The current barcode even has a barcode on it.

1/22/2011 11:26:01 AM

we put a barcode on your barcode so you can scan when you scan

1/22/2011 12:51:39 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "Schools should encourage patriotism and the values of Western civilization. They should teach the true facts of the history of the United States.""

I hate this fucking state.

1/22/2011 1:09:22 PM

The problem with using voter card for identification is that anyone can register and receive a voter registration card using false information. Only when the voter gets to the polls and tries to vote will the computer tell the poll worker to "Ask for ID" because the DMV check on the license the voter originally provided failed. That system would make lines at the polls extra long and require more poll workers to get the same number of voters through. Not to mention it is a standard medium paper weight with no holographs or anything special. Easily forged.

The voter card's only use is to inform the voter where their precinct's polling place is. Still I think that most voter fraud at the local level goes uncaught and the best solution would be some sort of ID.

1/22/2011 2:13:19 PM

To be honest, since this would cost money I don't expect that it would happen.

...let's be realistic. On the other hand, inability to resolve the problems that have come up in this thread could be on the road to us becoming a banana republic.

1/22/2011 2:35:43 PM

Quote :

"To be honest, since this would cost money I don't expect that it would happen."

I guess we'll see soon enough.

http://pulse.ncpolicywatch.org/2011/01/24/repubs-to-ram-through-photo-id-in-session%E2%80%99s-first-days/

Quote :

"Repubs to ram through photo ID in session’s first days? Posted at 12:14 PM by Rob Schofield Despite repeated assurances that they will bring a new level of openness and transparency to Raleigh, rumors persist in and around the General Assembly that the new Republican legislative leadership will move to introduce and pass legislation during the session’s opening days that will require all North Carolina voters to show a government-issued photo ID when exercising their constitutional right to vote."

1/25/2011 1:11:02 AM

I have to carry a government issued ID and card to exercise my 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, don't I? Esp. when I want to concealed carry.

1/25/2011 8:01:41 AM

I, too, am against this law. It will make it sooooooo much harder to commit voter fraud in this state.

1/25/2011 5:28:57 PM

Seriously! Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep this state blue?! Guess we have to get more creative.

1/25/2011 6:35:05 PM

Quote :

"I have to carry a government issued ID and card to exercise my 2nd amendment right to keep and bear arms, don't I? Esp. when I want to concealed carry. "

Of course, two wrongs do not make a right.

1/25/2011 8:23:46 PM

Quote :

"I, too, am against this law. It will make it sooooooo much harder to commit voter fraud in this state."

and how much voter impersonation fraud actually takes place?

the federal gov't has looked into this before and shown it's basically a non-existent problem at the individual level.

requiring a gov't issued ID affects people who move more and have less money and time to get an up-to-date ID. it also affects students. I no longer live in NC, but they're trying to pass a similar law in OH where I am now. it all stinks. and it's a pretty transparent effort by conservatives to get more poors out of the voting population.

1/25/2011 9:02:42 PM

Quote :

"the federal gov't has looked into this before and shown it's basically a non-existent problem at the individual level."

that study is a bit dubious, as it only looked at the number of people actually caught.

1/25/2011 9:12:36 PM

I oppose the government spending millions of dollars on a minuscule problem, the free market will sort this out. Government intervention FTL.

1/25/2011 9:24:27 PM

Quote :

"that study is a bit dubious, as it only looked at the number of people actually caught."

dead on. I have said this several times and no one really has a response. It would be pretty easy to organize some pretty wide spread fraud if you were interested. Not saying it happens and not saying it doesn't. Maybe the solution is to change the voter cards that they issue already. Not necessarily a photo id if that is prohibitively expensive but just a card with a barcode or something like that on it. It may even speed up the voting process. Scan, hand you a ballot, go vote.

1/25/2011 9:56:27 PM

it will be nice seeing the liberals and and libertarians opposing this together

1/25/2011 9:58:55 PM

The AARP just got in on this with their e-newsletter:

Quote :

" Photo ID Requirement May Impact Older Voters Legislation requiring photo identification in order to vote is expected to be introduced in the General Assembly in the first week of the session. Election officials state that voter fraud occurs with less than five votes out of every million cast. AARP is concerned that this requirement may establish barriers for older adults and people with disabilities who may not have a driver’s license or other photo identification. Many residents of assisted living facilities or nursing homes do not have photo IDs. If legislation is established requiring photo identification, the State of North Carolina should be responsible for paying for any costs associated with obtaining an ID. A greater opportunity for voter fraud is with absentee voting, since these voters do not have to show any ID, or appear before an election official. Voting illegally in North Carolina is a felony under the current law, and voters are required to provide identification to register to vote.”"

Maybe now they will care instead of ramming this through... I mean old people actually vote.

1/28/2011 10:57:24 PM

Adding to the poorly focused priorities:

http://www.wral.com/news/state/nccapitol/blogpost/9015263/

Quote :

"On the Senate side, bills took aim at banning Internet sweepstakes games and synthetic marijuana."

[Edited on January 29, 2011 at 12:26 AM. Reason : .]

1/29/2011 12:24:36 AM

http://www.southernstudies.org/2011/01/voter-id-laws-carry-hefty-price-tag-for-cash-strapped-states.html

Quote :

"Voter ID laws carry hefty price tag for cash-strapped states In 2010, Republicans campaigned on the issues of jobs, taxes and the economy -- and with states still reeling from scarce jobs and tight budgets, GOP leaders have pledged to keep that focus. [b]In North Carolina, incoming House Speaker Rep. Thom Tillis (R) opened the 2011 session this week by putting wrist-bands on the desks of every house member that said "Think Jobs" -- the same ones he gave to GOP candidates last fall, with instructions to snap them if they ever wandered off-message. But as state legislatures have opened for business over the last week, GOP lawmakers have begun not by pushing bills focused on jobs, but for measures that would require citizens to show photo identification while voting -- laws which, among other controversial features, will end up costing states tens of millions of dollars to implement."

Quote :

"In other cases, state budget estimates have noted the expenses, but blithely said they would be "absorbed" by existing state and local agencies. When Georgia signed its amended ID bill into law in 2006, lawmakers infamously didn't even include a fiscal note [pdf] with the bill, even though the state admitted counties would need at least $1 million for equipment alone. In 2009, Texas officials similarly tried to side-step the costs, making the astonishing claim that their program would have "no significant fiscal implication to the State." Such budgetary sleights-of-hand may have worked in the past, but they're unlikely to be accepted by officials today as they are asked to slash budgets and lay off core staff at every level of government. In short, the more honest state officials are about what's needed to implement a voter ID program -- and the less they try to push those costs off onto already-struggling agencies -- the higher the price tag. Given the much bigger problems facing states today, is the GOP's voter ID crusade really something they can afford?"

Bet they're having to slap their wrists pretty often between their focus on voter id, abortion, and gays rather than jobs.

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/11175828/article-Jan--30--2011?instance=opinion_hs_letters

Quote :

"After promising to focus on budget cuts and smaller government, it is disconcerting to see that one of the first items on the Legislative agenda is a Voter ID law."

Quote :

"In addition, penalties for voter fraud carry hefty fines, lengthy prison sentences, and, in the case of fraudulent voting by non-citizens, the revocation of legal status and deportation."

2/1/2011 12:56:25 AM

The latest I've heard is that the opposition to this, based on it being a waste of money when the GOP General Assembly should be focusing on jobs and the economy, has lead them to try to hide the costs of the bill.

They're now looking at passing off the cost on the counties rather than the state itself. So that every county has to buy all of its residents new ID without support from the state that is considering this new requirement.

I thought the GOP was supposed to be against unfunded mandates?

2/2/2011 10:39:46 PM

A few comments, as someone who actually works as a chief judge in elections, I know more about this process than probably most in this thread...

The '18' fraud cases they are talking about 'probably' stems from people caught voting in multiple locations within a county. Anyone that is registered in any county could very easily go to every polling place, lie about moving within the county, and get a new ballot. However, it is very easy to catch that. On the other hand, it is virtually impossible to catch the people that vote for people they know arent showing up at the polls, vote using people that recently died, etc. So you cant say that voter fraud doesnt exist in much larger numbers, because it probably does. Its just very very difficult to catch in the current system.

Voter IDs are REQUIRED when people register to vote. If you dont have it when you register, then a little mark goes in the book where you actually have to provide it on voting day. So the need for proper identification to get registered has always existed, it just isnt asked for normally when you vote. I cant tell you how many people get pissed off at the polling station that we arent required to ID people.

The ID law is a good thing. It is necessary to preserve the appearance of legitimate elections.

2/3/2011 9:29:01 AM

do you (^) know if there is an answer to this?

Quote :

"can you pair a student id with a bill from the university that has your name and address? "

if you can, the argument that this hurts students really gets knocked down a few pegs

2/3/2011 10:19:24 AM

yes. student ids are tied directly to student info. it would be kind of pointless if they werent

2/3/2011 10:50:00 AM

There are a large number of acceptable IDs.
Acceptable forms of identification include:

•A North Carolina driver’s license with current address
•A utility bill with name and current address
?A telephone or mobile phone bill
?An electric or gas bill
?A cable television bill
?A water or sewage bill
•A document with name and current address from a local, state, or U.S. government agency, such as:
?A passport
?A government-issued photo ID
?U.S. military ID
?A license to hunt, fish, own a gun, etc.
?A property or other tax bill
?Automotive or vehicle registration
?Certified documentation of naturalization
?A public housing or Social Service Agency document
?A check, invoice, or letter from a government agency
?A birth certificate
•A student photo ID along with a document from the school showing the student’s name and current address
•A paycheck or paycheck stub from an employer or a W-2 statement
•A bank statement or bank-issued credit card statement


Now, that doesnt mean the bill under consideration wont require a picture ID, but an acceptable form of ID now doesnt always equal a picture. Does this answer your question?

[Edited on February 3, 2011 at 11:03 AM. Reason : .]

2/3/2011 11:00:42 AM

Quote :

"The ID law is a good thing. It is necessary to preserve the appearance of legitimate elections."

If by, "appearance of legitimate" you mean "I only see white people voting".... then sure, yea.

racist.

2/4/2011 9:12:52 AM

Oh Solinari, where have we been without you?

2/4/2011 9:18:10 AM

When I was a freshman living on campus without my car, I certainly didn't have a driver license with a current address, the NCSU student ID doesn't include an address, I didn't have a power bill. I'm not sure what counts as a "school document." Would they accept a print out from MyPack?

I still think this is throwing millions at a problem that isn't seriously enough to warrant this level of funding priority or one of the first issues the General Assembly should be tackling. If it does happen though, maybe NCSU can explore ways to keep its students voting. Maybe sending out campus wide e-mails on the new voting licenses requirements, or maybe starting to print addresses on student IDs (at least for freshmen if not for everyone), giving everyone who lives on campus an acceptable official hard copy of "school document" right before the election.

I think adding millions to the deficit, and prioritizing this over economic issues, is a solution that is worse than the problems, and will discourage more legitimate voters than it stops fraudulent ones. Nevertheless, this will probably pass, so I guess my concern is starting to focus on how to encourage NCSU students to vote (which I assume is something everyone on this board wants to happen too).

2/4/2011 4:45:44 PM

http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/story/9059843/

"1M registered NC voters don't have photo ID"

Quote :

"That would mean the state would need to furnish photo IDs to about 1 million people so they could vote if the General Assembly approves voter identification legislation. Legislation introduced last year would allow various forms of identification, including utility bills or bank statements, but lawmakers said they eventually hope to require a photo ID."

Quote :

"The analysis shows that 508,000 registered Democrats, 277,000 Republicans and 219,000 unaffiliated voters lack a driver's license."

And there is the real reason for the GOP ID push. Unless there are more than a million fraudulent votes happening, is this a problem really worth throwing millions of tax dollars at?

2/4/2011 6:22:34 PM