Ok so my friend got herself in a predicament and though I'm pretty sure I know how this will turn out but I need some advice before helping her out.

Long story short - the girl bought a horse and found a guy on craigslist to sell a young horse while her bf got deployed to Iraq. Somebody responded with an offer to do a "free lease" where he would take care of the horse and break it because that's just something he wanted to do? and at the end of the "lease" he would have the option to buy the horse. The "lease" ended in September 2010 and she has been trying to contact the people and recently got in touch with them to find out that the son had "done something like this before" and that the father didn't know he had been taking care of a horse for a year for free. The father then demanded that he be paid $500 to release the horse, which is what she needs help with as I believe he is dead to rights and he's holding her property unlawfully.

The exact contract, which was not notarized reads as follows:

Quote :

"For the time period of December 2009 until September 2010 (guys initials) will be fully responsible for the care of Freedom including the payment of any vet bills that occur during Freedoms time with (guys initials). At the end of September 2010 the sale of Freedom will be discussed. Worming, washing and other general upkeep and care of Freedom is also the responsibility of (guys initials) and any problems that may occur due to unsatisfactory care (guys initials) will be held liable for the damage caused to the horse. If problems are endured by Freedom that cannot be fixed, arise during or by the end of the lease (guys initials) will be expected to buy Freedom for the asking price of $1,000 at the discretion of the owner. The owner of Freedom, (my friend's name) and (her bf) will be allowed to see her at any time. Freedom will not be ridden until the adequate age of 2 years old, which she will turn in the beginning of April 2010, to prevent health issues and a swayed back. No additional fees will be required."

then it was signed and dated by both parties. also by (guys initials) I mean he initialed the contract.

My friend also has all of the registration, paperwork, "title" or whatever for the horse and it is microchipped with an encoding that corroborates this.

How can we legally get her horse back without paying $500 dollarbucks?

thanks in advance

1/28/2011 6:59:58 PM

ntlb?

1/28/2011 7:14:57 PM

i don't have an answer for you, but you've only given in 20 minutes in the lounge... it hasn't been left behind.

1/28/2011 7:15:37 PM

So the guy kept and cared for the horse for a year and he now wants $500 to pay for said care (even though he said he would do it for free)?

If I'm reading it right then I don't see how your friend could Not pay him even though the situation sucks. It would be like boarding the horse with someone for a year which isn't free.

1/28/2011 7:20:44 PM

yeah I mean it's definitely fair to pay him some for it but she doesn't have the money to do so and she's offered to sell the horse for the $1000 and he won't take it. But legally speaking, he's dead to right isn't he? He'd technically be holding her personal property unlawfully because the contract said no additional fees, negotiation at the end of the term and it's not even notarized?

and to be clear, it was definitely under the pretense that it was free or she wouldn't have done it. apparently the guys son had done this in the past and mentioned something to her about the legal ramifications after that. Basically, I think the son was trying to get the horse, train it as his own and then extort it from her for way less than what it's worth. It's a Spotted Saddlebreed or something like that with good lines.

[Edited on January 28, 2011 at 7:26 PM. Reason : I know it's a weird situation, hence the ? on TWW ]

1/28/2011 7:24:17 PM

Call the guy and make arrangements to pay him and pick up the horse. Ask a sheriff's deputy to go with you to the farm and confront the guy boarding the horse. When you get there, just tell him you don't owe him anything and you've come to pick up your livestock. If he refuses to turn over the horse, he'll get arrested for stealing livestock.

1/28/2011 7:44:55 PM

horse people are always a little off

1/28/2011 8:01:54 PM

The horse belongs to the caretaker; your friend gave up possession of the horse. Pay the $500 or no more horse.

1/28/2011 8:07:49 PM

The problem with your contract is the consideration aspect. What did he get in exchange for the contract? If it's the ability to ride and train on a horse, or something of value, then your friend might have a good legal claim that the contract is valid. If there's nothing good in it for him, then there's a good chance the contract is not valid. If your friend is an NCSU student, she can contact student legal services for free. But, I do second the opinion of paying the sheriff's office to go with you to retrieve your property.

1/28/2011 8:13:38 PM

^^livestock ownership doesn't belong to the caretaker; people loan out livestock all the time on formal written agreements. This is larceny, plain and simple.

1/28/2011 9:49:42 PM

i doubt the sheriff can do anything without a court order

1/28/2011 9:51:48 PM

she is a NCSU student, I'll have her go to student legal tomorrow and I'll post again. I thought about getting a Sheriff or somebody to go in case of any sort of aggression that may arise from this but I don't know if they would or how much it would cost for such a thing.

1/28/2011 10:31:11 PM

This is a civil matter. Go to small claims. It should be an easy case. They guy isn't really obligated to turn over the horse without a court order/judgment unless you can suggest some sort of criminal wrongdoing at which point you can involve the police. IANAL

[Edited on January 28, 2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason : disclaimer]

1/28/2011 10:54:59 PM

Quote :

"yeah I mean it's definitely fair to pay him some for it but she doesn't have the money to do so"

I love how no one thus far has had a problem with the fact that this girl bought a horse, not a cat/dog/fish/gerbil, but a 500+ pound animal in the first place apparently without the time or money to properly take care of it.

Why does she even want the horse back. She was trying to sell it in the first place. Sounds like she needs to realize that she just received free care for a year for the upkeep of an animal that is ridiculously expensive to care for and cut her losses.

I would assume food for a horse would run more than $500-600/year and it wasn't mentioned in the contract. Who paid for that?

You even admit that the guy should be reimbursed some but just is shit out of luck b/c your friend's broke...

1/29/2011 5:17:02 AM

Quote :

"I believe he is dead to rights and he's holding her property unlawfully. "

haha
poor legal analysis in this thread

1/29/2011 8:23:18 AM

Im no lawyer but...

Contract, while its not notarized, looks legal and good. It was signed by both parties.

You (friend) have ownership papers. Go get the horse. Possession is in your behalf now. Get a deputy to go with you. If they want to contest it, they can take your friend to court. Deputy is gonna see papers, and hes not gonna care who has the horse. Caretaker can sue to get "rent" done, but due to your contract, itll probably get thrown out.

tldr: Go get the horse. Its yours.

1/29/2011 9:10:51 AM

May want to retain and attorney and start by sending a demand letter. (you need a demand letter to prove you asked for compliance prior to filing a law suit)

Also try contacting the police, the police cant play judge and jury but it sounds like she still has the "title" to the horse and never agreed to sell it and its still her property so they may just order them to release it to her.

1/29/2011 9:47:19 AM

^^

[Edited on January 29, 2011 at 9:50 AM. Reason : Ninja posted]

1/29/2011 9:49:40 AM

Quote :

" I love how no one thus far has had a problem with the fact that this girl bought a horse, not a cat/dog/fish/gerbil, but a 500+ pound animal in the first place apparently without the time or money to properly take care of it. Why does she even want the horse back. She was trying to sell it in the first place. Sounds like she needs to realize that she just received free care for a year for the upkeep of an animal that is ridiculously expensive to care for and cut her losses. I would assume food for a horse would run more than $500-600/year and it wasn't mentioned in the contract. Who paid for that? You even admit that the guy should be reimbursed some but just is shit out of luck b/c your friend's broke..."

My first thought too but the issue at hand is the contract not if she has poor judgement. I'll be interested to see what student legal services say.

1/29/2011 11:00:01 AM

I don't know how this "title" thing works for horses.

But, if it were a car... All you'd have to do is threaten to call the cops; if he doesn't turn it over, you really do call the cops.

I'm guessing horse ownership isn't that straightforward though.

1/29/2011 12:22:14 PM

this thread would have been nsfw if posted in Chit Chat....

1/29/2011 12:26:39 PM

what does a horse title look like?

1/29/2011 1:02:29 PM

Quote :

"I love how no one thus far has had a problem with the fact that this girl bought a horse, not a cat/dog/fish/gerbil, but a 500+ pound animal in the first place apparently without the time or money to properly take care of it. "

You could assume this about 95% of horse owners.

1/29/2011 2:11:01 PM

Unless they are willing to lie to the cops and claim they paid you for the horse, the horse is still your property. Call the cops and have them meet you there with the contract. The cops will force them to give you the horse. If they protest, the cops will tell them to sue you in court. no court order needed to re-claim your property.

Now, if they do sue you, some here have argued that they could win because there is no consideration in the contract, therefore the promise to perform was a gift. A judge might find this persuasive, so can you tell us what he might have gotten out of this? Is being the care-giver of a horse fun for some people? Do other people sometimes do this same contract but have the caregiver pay the owner for the right to lease the horse?

1/30/2011 8:48:34 AM

To answer ^'s question, there are free leases in the horse world all the time. The benefit of the leasee is that they get to ride/own a horse, that if anything happens to (medically, or even if the leasee decides that they're done with horses), they don't have to worry about selling the horse, or recouping their losses (if, for example, the horse goes unsound for life, or dies).

A free lease worded that way is very typical - the leasee is responsible for all charges, and the true owner of the horse is still the owner, and can take it back at any time (there is usually something in there that there be a notice or something, or that it may have to occur on the owner's farm of choice, or whatever).

I've never heard of a title for a horse, but if the horse is registered with a breed organization, there are usually ownership papers, and a history of who has owned the horse. Granted, they aren't required to fill out that paperwork (meaning another owner could have the papers, and never tell the breed organization that they own the horse - it costs money to do this), but, that's a very telling ownership thing.

The horse is yours. Get it back with some law enforcement help.

1/30/2011 9:23:05 AM

I do not think it matters that the contract was not notarized unless the other party tries to say they did not sign it (the sig was forged or something).

1/30/2011 12:47:55 PM

this is not the sort of question i was expecting

1/30/2011 1:06:34 PM

I've only heard of half and full leases on horses, never something like a free lease. However, I've seen plenty of stuff get messed up when people don't have legal documentation regarding horse care/riding situations (the place I ride at in Apex had a sticky situation regarding care due to lack of caretaker knowledge. My friend ended up pulling her horse off the property because of it). I've seen people get sued and in small claims court multiple times.

I currently have a verbal agreement with a friend about her horses (I ride and train them and supply tack, she pays for vet care and feed). I should probably get a written agreement so the issue of liability is covered.

Once I'm out of school I can't wait to buy some property, and buy my own to avoid the legal risk.

1/30/2011 1:35:07 PM

Go over there with a trailer and tell them you won't leave without the horse. If they won't give you access to get the horse call the Sheriff's department, tell them that this person has your property and refuses to release it, and sit in front of the house until they show up.

It would probably be a good idea to call the Sheriff in advance to let them know the situation and see if they would be willing to go out there initially, but if not it wouldn't stop me from showing up and making a scene. I would do this unannounced to the guy in possession of the horse to catch him off guard.

If they want money for the horse's care tell them to sue you. I'm sure they have no legal ground to stand on since she didn't sign a contract promising to pay for the care.

1/30/2011 8:25:06 PM

Also--if the lease was up in September, why is it taking so long to figure this out?

1/30/2011 9:04:12 PM

Have you considered going to see a man about this issue

1/30/2011 9:24:46 PM

bah - no legal advice here, just stating what would happen in a hypothetical situation with similar facts. I won't even mock the armchair lawyers of TWW (but I will mock the law student ITT, and maybe eleusis because he is a fucking moron)

Since the "contract" ended in September, why does anything about it matter. They have been keeping the horse since then and are entitled to boarding fees over at least that time period. Papers, microchips, other stuff does not matter.

Under NCGS 44A-2(c), the "father and son" have a statutory lien on an animal being boarded, and are in legal possession of the animal until reasonable charges for boarding are paid. This lien is superior to any other security interest in the animal. This is like the mechanics lien on a car, they get to keep it until they get paid.

No government official will help a friend go get property that they are not in legal possession of.
In short, nothing in life is free, pay up to get the damn horse and shut up.

Quote :

"then your friend might have a good legal claim that the contract is valid...But, I do second the opinion of paying the sheriff's office to go with you to retrieve your property."

Damn, they don't teach you kids anything in that school that's falling apart eh?

Quote :

"^^livestock ownership doesn't belong to the caretaker; people loan out livestock all the time on formal written agreements. This is larceny, plain and simple."

Doesn't matter dipshit.

V - which is irrelevant, but nice to say I suppose?

[Edited on January 31, 2011 at 2:12 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2011 1:44:56 PM

The sheriff will definitely get you your horse... if you have a court order compelling them to do so

1/31/2011 2:02:46 PM

Quote :

"Under NCGS 44A-2(c), the "father and son" have a statutory lien on an animal being boarded, and are in legal possession of the animal until reasonable charges for boarding are paid. This lien is superior to any other security interest in the animal. This is like the mechanics lien on a car, they get to keep it until they get paid. No government official will help a friend go get property that they are not in legal possession of. In short, nothing in life is free, pay up to get the damn horse and shut up."

Quote :

"The sheriff will definitely get you your horse... if you have a court order compelling them to do so"

http://forms.lp.findlaw.com/form/courtforms/state/nc/nc000248.pdf

Discuss.


And some of you seem to be forgetting that most people don't like confrontation. You'd be surprised what some people will do to make the situation go away when you're standing in their front yard with a trailer and the sheriff's department is on their way.

[Edited on January 31, 2011 at 2:18 PM. Reason : l]

1/31/2011 2:16:42 PM

44A-2(a) states:

Quote :

"(a) Any person who tows, alters, repairs, stores, services, treats, or improves personal property other than a motor vehicle or an aircraft in the ordinary course of his business pursuant to an express or implied contract with an owner or legal possessor of the personal property has a lien upon the property. The amount of the lien shall be the lesser of (1) The reasonable charges for the services and materials; or (2) The contract price; or (3) One hundred dollars ($100.00) if the lienor has dealt with a legal possessor who is not an owner."

So I'm not a lawyer but doesn't it come down to if the contract is valid or able to hold up? I mean the lien is only valid because there is "an express or implied contract with an owner." If the contract price is $0 isn't the lien $0?

1/31/2011 2:18:08 PM

So no one has gotten to the real issue at hand here. The fact is that if the "son" (guys initials) sold the horse to his father for some consideration (in this case it could be claimed to be the cost of care) then that guy is entitled to $500 dollars for the horse. Now, you can go through the "son" (guys initials) and get your $500 dollars before of after you pay the man, but you can't legally get your horse back from the man for free. Interesting play, but you're fucked if you can't ever find him again.

also,

Quote :

"The "lease" ended in September 2010 and she has been trying to contact the people and recently got in touch with them"

If the guy is looking for the $500 as boarding fees, that changes things. If this is true, and she's made a reasonable attempt to contact them, and can prove it, then she can't be held responsible for costs they incur for keeping the animal over contract (at least for a small amount of time). Five months might be pushing the leniency courts will give you on that, though.

[Edited on January 31, 2011 at 2:43 PM. Reason : ]

1/31/2011 2:40:43 PM

Skack, maybe you should read what you post. You have to go put up the amount in contention in order to get the property.

Pay up. Nothing in life is free, and take it as a lesson.

Quote :

"So no one has gotten to the real issue at hand here."

OMG, have they not Learned Hand? Please educate me.

The garbed redneck facts are too stupid to pick through, and I would care less to. The "contract" which doesn't need to be notarized, doesn't state a price. The horse has been boarded with the possessors for at least Sept - Jan after the lease, and unless the friend went there in Sept and demanded the horse immediately (doesn't seem likely if the issue is coming up in January) the possessors have been boarding it since then, and the the owner will have to pay for that term of board before the possessors have to give up the horse.

And eleusis - assuming the contract had run and the owner had the right to pick up the property, the possessors would be guilty of conversion, not larceny.

[Edited on January 31, 2011 at 2:54 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2011 2:44:03 PM

Quote :

"If the contract price is $0 isn't the lien $0?"

the contract ended in September. the lien would be for the boarding of the animal 10/1-Present.

1/31/2011 2:51:49 PM

Which she wouldn't be responsible for if she was making a concerted attempt to retrieve her animal and receiving no responses (if she can prove it).

1/31/2011 2:57:13 PM

^ agreed. I haven't read through the whole thread, but has she been trying to get the horse since September, or is this her first attempt to get the horse?

1/31/2011 2:58:06 PM

Quote :

"The "lease" ended in September 2010 and she has been trying to contact the people and recently got in touch with them"

from the OP, I assumed the whole time

1/31/2011 2:59:21 PM

Quote :

""If the contract price is $0 isn't the lien $0?" "

No, a contract price is not stated, that doesn't mean the contract price is 0. Given that the paper does not state terms, and it seems unlikely that someone would board a horse for free, its very likely a court will find a reasonable contract price.

Quote :

""The "lease" ended in September 2010 and she has been trying to contact the people and recently got in touch with them""

She didn't go to the farm, or take any action besides calling, to get the horse for three months? That does not seem very reasonable to me. I am sure that the owner is just a lazy ass who thinks she deserves a free ride.

[Edited on January 31, 2011 at 3:03 PM. Reason : .]

1/31/2011 3:01:06 PM

Quote :

"So no one has gotten to the real issue at hand here. The fact is that if the "son" (guys initials) sold the horse to his father for some consideration (in this case it could be claimed to be the cost of care) then that guy is entitled to $500 dollars for the horse. Now, you can go through the "son" (guys initials) and get your $500 dollars before of after you pay the man, but you can't legally get your horse back from the man for free. Interesting play, but you're fucked if you can't ever find him again. "

that would fall under the premise of "receiving stolen merchandise", so she can easily get the horse back for free. If I borrow your car and then sell it to someone else without transferring the title, do you really think you would lose ownership of your car?

Get a sheriff and go get your horse. End of story.

1/31/2011 3:04:05 PM

Quote :

"She didn't go to the farm, or take any action besides calling, to get the horse for three months? "

you're assuming she knows anything more about the people with her horse than her phone number, which may or may not be true.

1/31/2011 3:08:42 PM

So glad I could get a legal analysis Eleusis. Is there any profession where you cannot render expert opinions
Keep talking out of your ass though.

1/31/2011 3:09:21 PM

Quote :

"If I borrow your car and then sell it to someone else without transferring the title, do you really think you would lose ownership of your car? "

BTW, yes, because the cops would take it as evidence.

1/31/2011 3:10:46 PM

Quote :

"you're assuming she knows anything more about the people with her horse than her phone number, which may or may not be true."

The OP stated she has a signed contract. Reading comprehension FTW.

1/31/2011 3:13:58 PM

Ok, so she also knows his fuckin name. That doesn't mean she knows where the horse is being kept, or how to get in touch with him if he won't answer his phone or call her back for five months.

Don't reading comprehension me over stupid shit, knowing his name doesn't necessarily do her any good. Let's focus on the fact that making phone calls MAY have been as much of an effort as she could have given.

1/31/2011 3:17:49 PM

Quote :

"Don't reading comprehension me over stupid shit, knowing his name doesn't necessarily do her any good. "

I am pretty sure that a name allows her to locate the person's residence and attempt to contact them through a certified letter or traveling to that location. I apologize for the highhanded comment about reading comprehension, because I doubt anyone could get cogent facts out of the OP.

I am fairly sure that the owner is just a lazy ass who thinks she deserves to get shit for free.

1/31/2011 3:21:43 PM

itt flatline offers dumbass advice on shit he knows nothing about.

1/31/2011 3:25:20 PM