Details are starting to emerge about Windows vNext, so figured we'd start a thread



looks really nice. glad to see them making bold UI choices, and really glad (though not all that surprised i guess) to see it's using elements of the zune and wp7 Metro design. I really really hope they get the performance really nailed though - this reminds me in some ways of Windows Media Center - looked great, new take on a UI, but ended up being awfully buggy and laggy.

rumored for release sometime 2012. also notably, will run on ARM processors as well as x86

6/1/2011 8:16:16 PM

looks like a decent approach to a tablet OS but that shell looks awful for multitasking and productivity. I'm interested to see if they make a paradigm change in the productivity UI or if it's going to default back to the win7 UI you see in the vid

6/1/2011 8:22:11 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/01/microsoft-windows-8_n_870056.html

Quote :

""Windows 8 essentially supports two kinds of applications. One is the classic Windows application, which runs in a desktop very similar to the Windows 7 desktop," writes All Things D's Ina Fried, who was granted an exclusive look at Windows 8 prior to the conference. "The other type of application, which has to be written in HTML5 and Javascript, looks more like a mobile application, filling the full screen. Internet Explorer 10, which is part of Windows 8, has already been configured to run in this mode, as have several widget-like apps for checking stock prices and weather.""

as I said on the twitters, my skill set just got completely validated and as a result I am excited as fuck

6/1/2011 8:26:05 PM

i think its going to turn into a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation as currently described

but hells yeah, html5 and javascript apps? im there man

6/1/2011 8:47:27 PM

Quote :

"but hells yeah, html5 and javascript apps? im there man"

[Edited on June 1, 2011 at 8:57 PM. Reason : Just watched the video. Awesome.]

6/1/2011 8:50:13 PM

So nobody at Microsoft has heard of a microphone to go along with their video camera? What an embarrassingly horrible quality level of AV production for a first look at a flagship product from one of the world's biggest companies.

But, yeah, the UI looks pretty nifty.

6/1/2011 9:17:36 PM

you're not the only one who reads daring fireball guy

also, i just noticed the guy doing the presentation is Jensen Harris, who wrote the Office 2007 blog http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/ which was for me the first look into Microsoft that allowed me to appreciate a lot of the choices they make and the intent and thought that goes into them

[Edited on June 1, 2011 at 9:26 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2011 9:20:18 PM

The funny thing is, I posted that and then immediately saw the DF post and thought "I hope nobody else reads DF, they'll think I gronked that quote"

oh well.

6/1/2011 9:25:31 PM

gronked lol

to be honest though, i didn't notice the audio "quality" the first time i watched the video. after watching it again, i can see what people are talking about, but i can't say it bothers me that much. it's designed to be a casual first look mostly for people in the tech industry i'd guess, not the first prime time television commercial

6/1/2011 9:28:17 PM

Eh, the only reason I noticed it is because I'm watching on my laptop in a fairly loud room. Even with the volume turned all the way up, I could barely hear exactly what they're saying. I'll bet they get enough negative feedback that Video #2 is a lot better.

6/1/2011 9:29:55 PM

Jensen is the dude that "designed the ribbon" for Office. And as a Microsoftee, I can tell you the reason the production quality isn't Applesque is because until about 3 hours ago, no one outside the product teams knew any of this existed.

Quote :

"looks like a decent approach to a tablet OS but that shell looks awful for multitasking and productivity."

This is not a replacement of the Windows Explorer shell. It's an addition to it. Think of it like Expose + the Dock in OSX. They work in conjunction with each other. In a desktop keyboard + mouse setup, you can use windows just like you do today PLUS being able to use the snapping functionality and live tiles if you want them.

Quote :

"this reminds me in some ways of Windows Media Center - looked great, new take on a UI, but ended up being awfully buggy and laggy."

I can only say this. WMC is an application that runs on Windows. What was shown today IS Windows.

6/1/2011 9:54:50 PM

I liveblogged this at D9 today. Everything was awesome until Excel popped up and the "real" Windows showed up again.

What an epic disaster. If this Windows was truly good enough to run on everything, WP7 wouldn't exist for phones -- they'd just use Win8. No chance this takes even a meaningful amount of the tablet market. Microsoft just doesn't get it.

6/2/2011 12:31:34 AM

win8 for tablets should be locked into the metro ui with no possible way to get back to the standard windows desktop. running the desktop version of some application from 10 years ago on your touch screen tablet will never work. dont even bother trying.

the html5/js garbage is probably fine for dumb shit like twitter or fullscreen weather gadgets, but i'm assuming there will still be real apps written in c# that are cross platform (arm/x86) via the .net runtime.

if you cant deliver the exact same c# apps to wp7/win8arm/win8x86/xbox then this shit is destined to fail because no one will adopt it.

6/2/2011 12:36:28 AM

epic disaster? isn't it safe to assume that this is pre alpha?

6/2/2011 1:15:41 AM

Quote :

"What an epic disaster. If this Windows was truly good enough to run on everything, WP7 wouldn't exist for phones -- they'd just use Win8. No chance this takes even a meaningful amount of the tablet market. Microsoft just doesn't get it."

You do realize that Windows Phone 7 IS running Windows CE, right? I'll respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Per the Computex hardware unveil:

Quote :

""Windows 8 will be able to run on a wide range of machines because it will have the same system requirements or lower.""

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 1:30 AM. Reason : .]

6/2/2011 1:23:25 AM

Quote :

"What an epic disaster. If this Windows was truly good enough to run on everything, WP7 wouldn't exist for phones"

Uh... maybe WP7 exists for phones because Win8 is still a year away?

6/2/2011 9:08:39 AM

Quote :

"gronked that quote"

added to my lexicon

6/2/2011 9:15:45 AM

neato

the part I don't get is why the "classic" apps can't just run full screen or why they would require the task bar

6/2/2011 9:56:19 AM

Quote :

"What an epic disaster. If this Windows was truly good enough to run on everything, WP7 wouldn't exist for phones -- they'd just use Win8."

How does someone who doesn't understand product and software development cycles get a job liveblogging an event rooted in the process they don't understand?

6/2/2011 10:09:46 AM

thats how all tech journalisms work

6/2/2011 10:22:12 AM

add to my topiks

6/2/2011 10:22:59 AM

Also, isn't this demonstrating Office 2010 on Windows 8? Isn't it feasible to think that Office 15 will have native tile integration? Is it reasonable to expect that every legacy application will run natively in the new UI?

6/2/2011 10:37:31 AM

i think the better question is why have a spreadsheet application on a tablet at all? A spreadsheet reader, sure but they've already got touch versions of that in the office hub on wp7.

Touch based interfaces suck for the types of user input used in things like spreadsheets, or word processors, or IDEs or whatever else. Touch based tablets are for content consumption, not creation and trying to mingle them is a bad idea.

6/2/2011 10:43:28 AM

Quote :

"Touch based tablets are for content consumption, not creation and trying to mingle them is a bad idea."

that's the conventional wisdom. probably won't always be the case. touch ui is still fairly young, no reason to think people won't figure out ways to make content creation and "productive" work applications more capable on tablets

i don't think there will be leaps and bounds in that area by the time win8 arrives. and the thought of using visual studio on a tablet makes me want to barf. just saying don't hold onto the tablets are for content consumption notion too strongly

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 11:09 AM. Reason : . ]

6/2/2011 11:06:53 AM

i mean maybe if styluses make a comeback? But even then the primary use cases for tablets are always going to be more content consumption rather than creation. keyboards and mice are far far better for input and that aint gonna change.

i mean maybe what you end up with is a win8 on a tablet that can be docked to a workstation. When undocked its in content consumption mode. All touch interface, no access back to the desktop because its so unusable for touch. When you dock it, you can then access all the underlying normal desktop type win8 stuff.

But mobile devices with touch only interfaces will always be limited to content consumption because the form factor is just awful for any complex input due to ergonomic factors.

I mean who knows. Maybe someone creates a mind-machine interface that renders it all moot, but that aint gonna happen any time soon. Microsoft should focus on making any tablet versions of win8 metro only.

6/2/2011 11:17:54 AM

Just because the traditional desktop interfaces on a tablet aren't ideal, doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

Like, touch probably isn't the ideal way to go through the AD Users and Computers snap-in, but there's no reason the version of it that's currently sitting in Windows wouldn't work in a tablet environment.

6/2/2011 11:27:58 AM

for something like that, sure you can create a metro version because its not really all that complex. Im sure there are alot of applications like that that really could be made touch friendly without compromising too much utility.

But the original versions should never ever be accessible on a tablet because they were not designed for touch.

Thats really the point im trying to make. The traditional mouse based windows desktop and any applications designed for mouse/keyboard input should not be accessible on win8 tablets. If you want to write a program that has both touch versions and mouse versions then great. Only show the touch version on tablets.

The idea that everyone wants all their old windows applications on their tablet so they can touch at tiny text boxes and hunt and peck on an on screen keyboard is terribly wrong and will only hurt microsoft in the long run.

6/2/2011 11:37:05 AM

^this way of thinking is probably right for home users. But dead wrong for business users.

6/2/2011 12:22:48 PM

home users are the primary market for tablets.

and no business user is going to want to use excel via touch. thats idiotic.

6/2/2011 12:35:32 PM

Quote :

"The idea that everyone wants all their old windows applications on their tablet so they can touch at tiny text boxes and hunt and peck on an on screen keyboard is terribly wrong and will only hurt microsoft in the long run."

So offering the ability to run legacy apps and touch apps is terribly wrong? What if I really wanted to be able to modify an Excel document on my tablet? I shouldn't be able to? And tablets don't support bluetooth (or wired even) input devices? I honestly think it's a selling point.

Here's a tablet wherein you're not locked into a bullshit marketplace for your applications. Enjoy.

My hangup with the OS is there's no way in shit I'm going to buy a touch screen LCD for home use on my desktop. I'm more excited to hear glimmers of Kinect or Kinect-like speech and gesture control though.

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 12:47 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2011 12:43:36 PM

the market for people who want bad UIs on a touch device is android linux users. thats not a worthwhile group. microsoft should target consumers and end users first with their tablet stuff. make it as simple as possible to use with no posibility of getting to some confusing and unusable desktop. then once the os starts selling anyone who wants to write metro versions of whatever admin apps you want can do so.

there is absolutely no reason to drag old apps onto tablets and doing so only creates user confusion.

6/2/2011 1:08:12 PM

No dentist will want his clinical/patient education workstation (a tablet) to be able to run excel huh? Wow.

6/2/2011 1:21:14 PM

my dentist just uses normal pc w/ keyboard and mouse s because they're cheap and dont need to move from room to room and he isnt a retard who wants to waste money on some flashy gadget thats harder to use. Its all custom dental applications, not excel, that are full of text boxes that would be a pain in the ass to target with a finger (let alone a golved finger).

6/2/2011 1:25:03 PM

so you dentist is representative of all medical practitioners out there who may be interested in a touch screen device to help them with their daily routine?

i can say, equivocally, that you have zero idea what the fuck you're talking about, and it is goddamned hilarious.


Do you ever consider the idea that your fucking "I don't use it so it's not a valid use case" routine is fucking getting old, though?

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 1:37 PM. Reason : i love you though shaggy. keep talking out of your ass <3]

6/2/2011 1:36:11 PM

yes yes. what dentists want is to fustratingly poke around at a UI that was never designed for touch.

6/2/2011 1:38:21 PM

yes yes, what guys like you don't understand is that there's an entire UI movement based on gesture based interfaces and natural UI progression.



but PLEASE. carry on, because you're certainly more informed than a guy who has worked in the field for years with those same users you say "dont want it" and has developed products in it based off of mountains of research.

6/2/2011 1:42:57 PM

^^ever heard of carrying the tablet back to your business office and attaching a keyboard? Oh, and by the way these "fancy gadgets" are more affordable than buying 2 traditional PC's to fill 2 roles.

Dentists are one example of 100's of clinical provider types where tablets make infinite sense. They are great for digital radiography and patient education.

And clinical provider types are just the first who business type really adopting tablet technology... the floodgates are going to open soon. Legacy support is CRUCIAL to businesses... welcome to the real world.

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ^^]

6/2/2011 1:47:35 PM

missed a caret, bro

6/2/2011 1:48:28 PM

yea i dont know what the fuck you retards are talking about.

I said using old legacy apps on tablets is fucking stupid, not developing touch based UIs for legacy apps is stupid. I dont know if you just cant read or if your brains are fucked up, but if you're replacing the existing dental app with one that plugs into the metro UI thing for touch screens then great. go hog wild.

in that case theres still 0 reason to have legacy applications or to have the full windows desktop be available when the tablet is undocked.

then when the tablet is undocked they can get to the desktop version to do keyboard entry.


again: 0 reason to ever have legacy mouse and keyboard applications available on a tablet.



[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 2:03 PM. Reason : a]

6/2/2011 2:02:29 PM

Quote :

"for something like that, sure you can create a metro version because its not really all that complex. Im sure there are alot of applications like that that really could be made touch friendly without compromising too much utility. "

This statement alone means you need to shut the hell up.

You obviously have no idea whatsoever how much effort it takes to bridge and existing application into a Modern Metro UI. I just spent the better part of the last two years doing that for the product I work on, and it IS really that complex to do it RIGHT.

And you are making the same argument as the evangelical censors. Just because something exists doesn't mean you ever have to see or use it. But it's there for people who do want it. Allowing existing apps to continue to work doesn't mean you have to use them, or that somehow it's a lesser experience because the option exists.

6/2/2011 2:14:35 PM

yea ok. well enjoy getting owned by apple i guess.

you havent been able to sell people on windows tablets for the last 10 years, but by all means keep trying.

6/2/2011 2:21:07 PM

Quote :

"i love you though shaggy. keep talking out of your ass <3"

6/2/2011 2:44:12 PM

do this: get on your current phone or tablet. now rdp into your desktop and fire up excel or ad users and computers or whatever app you are currently working in.

Now try to finish the rest of your day working like that because thats essentially what you're asking people will do with win8 tablets.

To be clear here i like alot of microsoft's tech and underlying designs. The windows API and the way you can use almost all of it over RPC is fantastic.

What I dont like is this continued idea of dragging along old legacy applications to every future version of windows. Especially when those apps are just straight painful to use via touch. Whats gonna happen is people will look at win8 on a tablet, like the metro portion, but they'll hate using legacy apps or excel on it. At that point they'll abadon the tablet for a laptop or go to a tablet with more apps that have better UIs for those same applications or functions.

If microsoft says "oh yea you can just use excel on this win8 tablet" then no one anywhere is going to try to build a usable spreadsheet touch ui for it because it'll never sell. (substitute excel/spreadsheets for any other common user app)

Users will look at you device and think "this is a tablet with no tablet friendly applications" and never give it a second thought.

You guys have a fantastic tool set and an excellent platform but god damnit you need to focus more on end users and consumers and ease of use because you're going to lose that (already have lost it) to apple.


I mean what it comes down to is that you wouldnt run a desktop version of windows on 360 with a start menu and icons, so why the hell would you do it on a tablet?

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 3:04 PM. Reason : a]

6/2/2011 3:04:10 PM

Actually I think it would be cool to be able to run Windows 7 in addition to my normal 360 interface on my 360.

6/2/2011 3:08:22 PM

so if i've got a full windows 7 on my xbox why would i bother buying any xbox games? i can get them on steam for way less and they all work with the controller. or why even bother paying for the games at all?

6/2/2011 3:12:03 PM

The only reason anyone (who also has a computer) buys Xbox games now: Xbox Live (and platform-exclusives like Halo or Gears of War).

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on June 2, 2011 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

6/2/2011 3:18:38 PM

EVERYTHING STAYS THE SAME IN SHAGGYLAND, ALWAYS


NEVER CHANGE.


NEVER.

6/2/2011 4:30:47 PM

Quote :

"I mean what it comes down to is that you wouldnt run a desktop version of windows on 360 with a start menu and icons, so why the hell would you do it on a tablet?"

Actually I would kill to be able to do that. It would make my 360 infinitely more useful.

Quote :

"If microsoft says "oh yea you can just use excel on this win8 tablet" then no one anywhere is going to try to build a usable spreadsheet touch ui for it because it'll never sell. (substitute excel/spreadsheets for any other common user app)"

You're entitled to your thoughts, but the same argument can be made for Excel on any platform, and there is plenty of healthy competition. Not sure why one platform is more special than any other.

Quote :

"Now try to finish the rest of your day working like that because thats essentially what you're asking people will do with win8 tablets."

You're still missing the point. That's not how anyone works. I use RDP on my portables to accomplish things that dont have a better native experience. As soon as the task is done, I flip right back to the native UI.

6/2/2011 5:03:54 PM

Quote :

"do this: get on your current phone or tablet. now rdp into your desktop and fire up excel or ad users and computers or whatever app you are currently working in."

Actually, on my windows phone I do open and edit excel spreadsheets regularly. No, I'm not doing an accountants job (I'm a programmer) but quick project management or data manipulation stuff that can be pushed back to SharePoint is definitely a huge time saver. I;m in the middle of buying a new house and have a couple spreadsheets for various mortgage calculations, recent sales with price breakdowns, etc. and when talking to my agent at a property I was quickly able to determine a reasonable offer based off neighboring properties (factoring sqft, br/ba, tax value, list/sale, etc) and know exactly what closing costs, possible PMI, and monthly payments for a couple different loan types. This took me seconds on a fucking PHONE!

6/2/2011 5:14:02 PM

you guys know he's just going to come back with more anecdotal shit, right?

6/2/2011 5:46:38 PM