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dtownral
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do you really think that is at all a comparable incident? seriously?

5/11/2017 1:57:54 PM

jbrick83
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I don't think frats are bad. And I know shit like this can happen at a regular party. But does this not sound like normal hazing? I'm sure there are some frat dudes in here that probably didn't go this far, but I heard of hazing like this while I was at State...so it's definitely not uncommon. I say get rid of the risk.

Just saw the comparison...are you fucking retarded?

[Edited on May 11, 2017 at 2:00 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2017 2:00:23 PM

ssclark
Black and Proud
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no absolutely not. it's an example carried to absurdity to clearly identify a flaw in logic.

pencils aren't bad... getting one stuck in your eye is.

Frats aren't inherently bad... bad people wielding influence and control over impressionable people, who, are hoping to be accepted thus are at an impasse, in irresponsible an irresponsible manner, is bad.

5/11/2017 2:00:24 PM

dtownral
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if there was a problem with certain groups often having new members get injured from pencils, then maybe we should have a talk about if those groups are bad or if there are steps that can be taken to keep them away from pencils

5/11/2017 2:03:21 PM

ssclark
Black and Proud
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lol fair enough, poor example to illustrate my point. I still think my point is valid: frats have no inherent issue.

The vast majority of frats are run without problems. It's when people with a loose moral compass make decisions that impact the health of others.

Ending frats won't change that, ending that behavior will. Which, like, afripino said ... good fucking luck with that.

Way easier to just "get rid of the risk" as so elegantly spoken by jbrick.

5/11/2017 2:09:40 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
"frats have no inherent issue"


except for that whole "generations of unchecked privilege in a group setting" deal

5/11/2017 2:14:50 PM

Jeepin4x4
Cam Time Steamroller
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IBT "that pledge was a lightweight"

5/11/2017 2:15:24 PM

jbrick83
All American
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Quote :
"
The vast majority of frats are run without problems"


I doubt that. Obviously there are bigger problems than others (like this Penn State case)...but I bet you could pick any random fraternity and find some shady shit going on and it's probably promoted, facilitated, or encouraged by the frat itself.

College already encourages binge drinking...we don't need frats to facilitate that essentially give it a place to hide.

Quote :
"IBT "that pledge was a lightweight"

"


I laughed...but I'm a horrible person.

[Edited on May 11, 2017 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2017 2:18:30 PM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
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Quote :
"these can't be srsly outlawed though"


Maybe outlaw is a strong word, but schools can eliminate Greek life programs/funding/on-campus housing and prevent them from participating in extracurricular activities on campus.

[Edited on May 11, 2017 at 2:26 PM. Reason : BAN TKE]

5/11/2017 2:25:58 PM

Lionheart
He's dead Jim.
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^Yeah you can't stop a bunch of guys from getting a house and charging for membership in a private club but there's no reason for Universities to build it into the campus lifestyle in this day and age.

5/11/2017 2:28:43 PM

ncsuallday
Sink the Flagship
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http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/crime_courts/article_1c1e6914-350c-11e7-b3b1-436b96fe269f.html

texts from the night / aftermath

I'll be interested to see how this case turns out. So much evidence of all kinds of crimes all over the place.

5/11/2017 2:33:12 PM

dtownral
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i'm having a hard time believing that a random group of friends would take so many steps to prevent them from getting help and cover up the crimes after

5/11/2017 2:59:40 PM

Jeepin4x4
Cam Time Steamroller
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the gauntlet, dude

5/11/2017 3:38:43 PM

TKE-Teg
All American
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I'm not defending that fraternity by the way. Looks like a bunch of completely shithead douchebags who also seem to be lacking much intelligence or common sense. Definitely a ticking time bomb.

5/11/2017 4:51:59 PM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
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i hear TKE had a gauntlet as well, but it involved dicks instead of getting forcibly drunk.

5/11/2017 4:54:38 PM

dmspack
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this is extremely sad and fucked up

5/11/2017 5:34:49 PM

TreeTwista10
Cool Jerk
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Way back when, in '67, I was the dandy of Gamma Chi

5/11/2017 5:48:29 PM

PaulISdead
All American
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Thank you for leading me to this: https://youtu.be/ea3Bofkmwlc

5/11/2017 7:55:17 PM

KeB
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So my question is why can't/don't they suspend these frats on the national level when some shit like this goes down. Do they think that the Beta Theta Pi chapter at Penn State is making pledges do this while other schools have their pledges out volunteering at a Soup kitchen? That somehow they just made this hazing process on their own without some sort of guidance/instruction/tradition on a national level. This "gauntlet" was more than likely going on at every chapter across the US during this time. Suspend the whole damn fraternity nationwide when just ONE gets caught hazing and I guarantee the problem will disappear.

And if a bunch of them want to take mommy and daddy's money and start some underground BS then have at it.

And the sick part is these kids now have mommy and daddy turning over their life savings to hire these attorneys who are going to try to spin this into being the own kids fault. All because their little snowflake is such a good person who has their whole bright future ahead of them and one "little" error in judgement shouldn't affect the rest of their lives. Meanwhile some probably most participated in this same garbage hazing ritual in years past without incident. They ain't sorry, they sorry they got caught...



[Edited on May 11, 2017 at 11:57 PM. Reason : .]

5/11/2017 11:45:08 PM

KeB
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Quote :
"Erickson: If need be, just tell them what I told you guys, found him behind an away bar the next morning at around 10 a.m., and he was freezing-cold, but we decided to call 911 instantly, because the kid's health was paramount."


What a piece of shit.....

5/12/2017 12:01:09 AM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
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Quote :
"So my question is why can't/don't they suspend these frats on the national level "


Who is this "they" you are referring to?

5/12/2017 7:22:23 AM

afripino
All American
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The Greek Gods

5/12/2017 8:56:00 AM

JP
All American
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^lol, that reminds me of this scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BquyQj8TX_w

5/12/2017 9:01:52 AM

modlin
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Quote :
"Do they think that the Beta Theta Pi chapter at Penn State is making pledges do this while other schools have their pledges out volunteering at a Soup kitchen?"


My experience is that chapters from one college to another can and are very different. Stuff that was common to the national organization was like the ritual and meeting stuff. Anything that came close to hazing was all local to the chapter, something some dude in the 80's had invented and was whatever.

5/12/2017 9:55:47 AM

rjrumfel
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But at the national level, are they really trying to stop this behavior? No. Do they outwardly speak against it? Sure they hate lawsuits as much as the next group. But behind closed doors, they know it goes on and they don't care.

5/12/2017 10:01:07 AM

DROD900
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traditions that are specific to a chapter are not the same as hazing

Obviously stuff like this goes on, but this is WAY past anything I've ever heard of. I don't even know how the "national" fraternity would be able to police every individual chapter

5/12/2017 10:07:38 AM

BobbyDigital
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^

It would be akin to a car manufacturer policing every dealership. hundreds of dealerships bear the a given manufacturer logo, but as we all know some dealerships are absolutely shitty, and others are great. Ones that are particularly bad may result in some sanctions from corporate, but each dealership is ultimately an individual entity, much like a chapter of a fraternity.

5/12/2017 10:12:54 AM

Lionheart
He's dead Jim.
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Look, in this day and age its pretty easy to find a place to hang out with friends, get drunk, and try to fuck women without having to pay to get the shit beat out of you or have to lick another dude's balls until it's your turn to do it to the new guys next year.

5/12/2017 10:13:18 AM

dtownral
All American
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i think it being difficult to police each chapter is kind of the point, you should get rid of all of them

5/12/2017 10:37:58 AM

jbrick83
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Quote :
"hundreds of dealerships bear the a given manufacturer logo, but as we all know some dealerships are absolutely shitty, and others are great."


Better analogy than the stupid sharp pencil earlier (but what analogy wouldn't be?)...but still a little off.

Even though there are good fraternities (I'm guessing "good" means that they don't get in trouble and do a decent amount of charity work??)...the vast majority of them do promote a shit-ton of drinking. Whether it be through parties or hazing...it just creates an atmosphere for more bad shit to happen than just a regular college party.

Now that I'm a parent, I'm actually worried about the college environment I might be sending my kid to one day. College was pretty crazy when I was there, but I feel like it's a motherfucking shit show these days. Things need to start happening to reign things in a bit and I don't see why getting rid of fraternities altogether wouldn't be a good first step.

5/12/2017 11:00:46 AM

rjrumfel
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Dude, it's not a shit show.

Could you imagine if you had a smartphone during college, with your drunk ass taking pictures of everything you thought was cool while you were drunk and instantly instagramming that shit?

That's the problem. College is the same. Technology is different.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 11:13 AM. Reason : dsfs]

5/12/2017 11:12:33 AM

DROD900
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if we go by that logic, why not just get rid of all student organizations? It's not like fraternities are the only entities that have group parties or "hazing". I've been to plenty of rugby parties at state where they had their own heavy drinking events masqueraded as traditions

5/12/2017 11:13:31 AM

dtownral
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sports and fraternities are the only groups that seem to have these kinds of problems

5/12/2017 11:23:28 AM

jbrick83
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^^ I say get rid of the worst offenders and start heavy regulating the next. Scratch the fraternities and start policing the sports/club sports and handing down heavier penalties.

We're obviously disagreeing, but I'm not changing my opinion.

5/12/2017 11:26:32 AM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"I say get rid of the worst offenders"


What do you think already is happening? This PSU chapter is toast; they're done for. Every time something horrific happens the chapter is gone (as they should be). How does that not fit the definition of "get rid of"?


Quote :
" College was pretty crazy when I was there, but I feel like it's a motherfucking shit show these days. Things need to start happening to reign things in a bit and I don't see why getting rid of fraternities altogether wouldn't be a good first step."


Based on what I've heard first hand from older alumni, witnessed and experienced myself (when in college), and seen in an advisory role, the trend over the last few decades (basically from 1970s forward) is that hazing and crazy shit has been continually trending downward. Obviously that's not a blanket statement that fits across the nation but as far as NCSU is concerned I would say that's probably pretty accurate. As already mentioned the difference (in some cases) would seem to be that it's super easy to document anything these days.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 12:09 PM. Reason : ]

5/12/2017 12:08:11 PM

DROD900
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^^I'm not trying to change your opinion, just offering another viewpoint.

Quote :
"sports and fraternities are the only groups that seem to have these kinds of problems"


Not sure if that was sarcasm or not, but that would be a decent chunk of the student population. Go ahead and throw in other clubs and student organizations into that mix. You know the band, dance team, cheerleaders, etc. all have their demons as well.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 12:10 PM. Reason : asdf]

5/12/2017 12:10:04 PM

jbrick83
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You can't really throw band hazing in with fraternities. My freshmen dorm roommate was in the band. He came home drunk after drinking his first wine cooler at the beginning of the second semester and he thought the band parties were "crazy". The other clubs and groups are probably closer to the band group than they are fraternities.

There's a massive difference.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 12:14 PM. Reason : .]

5/12/2017 12:13:28 PM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
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Yeah, fucking band nerds.

5/12/2017 12:15:51 PM

DROD900
All American
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well you're throwing all fraternities into a group with the couple bad fraternities that are out there...

Obviously there is a line between what is acceptable partying and whats not, but I dont think the difference between fraternities, groups/clubs and regular old house parties is an massive as you are leading on.

Hell, some of the parties I went to in high school were more wild that what I saw in college.

5/12/2017 12:24:17 PM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
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None of my friends would actively try to cover up my injury/death.

5/12/2017 12:32:21 PM

dtownral
All American
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i remember that time i was at a regular house party with just a group of friends and we forced the newer friends to chug alcohol and stand and squat in uncomfortable positions and one kid fell and got hurt and we wouldn't let the other friends call the police and then we tried to cover it up

5/12/2017 1:36:01 PM

DROD900
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again, you're just taking the horrible example from the article above and blindly applying it to all fraternities.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I'm not in any way implying that what happened at PSU was acceptable or even close to being normal. Obviously, you've got a mental vendetta against fraternities in general, and just think it's a constant group of guys taking keg stands, hazing freshman, fucking sheep and roofying girls drinks 24/7. That's fine, but it's not what really goes on.

5/12/2017 1:37:57 PM

rjrumfel
All American
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You forgot the unifying fashion trends.

5/12/2017 1:41:34 PM

modlin
All American
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Quote :
"You can't really throw band hazing in with fraternities. My freshmen dorm roommate was in the band."


I guess your roomate didn't go to Stanford. Or Florida A&M. Or Texas Southern. Or Ohio State. Or Southern. Or Jackson State. Or NC Central.

5/12/2017 1:44:10 PM

TreeTwista10
Cool Jerk
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At least no kids are being molested by their football program anymore. They're really making strides as a university.

5/12/2017 2:56:09 PM

SuperDude
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Shouldn't every university try to police this stuff? I'm sure there are some limitations on their part, but I would imagine that anything being held at a greek house or on campus would be fair game.

Require group meetings/socials to be scheduled and posted. Groups could be penalized for anything unsanctioned.

Have monitors/security/police that can investigate periodically (i.e., Thurs/Fri/Sat nights) to catch underage drinking.

I know there are workarounds for everything, but I imagine that some enforcement would tone these things down.

5/12/2017 3:14:13 PM

BridgetSPK
#1 Sir Purr Fan
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^They already do all that stuff, and they have reduced hazing and some other things, but we should still expect incidents like these to occur. Plus, I'm not sure it's all the "investigating" that's helped. Kids are different these days--they're less and less likely to be comfortable with hazing in general.

If fraternities/similar social clubs for kids are going to persist (under an obvious and explicit groupthink model), then what they really need is some significant oversight from their own organization--and not just the "awareness" lectures/PPT presentations/preachy reminders about legal ramifications that they currently receive. They need some very basic adult input.

Five shots in two minutes? On what could be an empty stomach with other drugs involved? With a bunch more booze definitely on the way? I've done that. I've always had a problem, so I still do that sometimes. But that's not a party. That's lights out when you're alone....when it's eight o'clock after a long day, and you want it all done by nine at the latest. Ideally, you wake up in bed with no injuries and various empty bottles in the trash can. Sometimes, you wake up with a twisted knee or a bump on your head...and if you're good at investigating, you can slowly piece it together that you likely twisted your knee when you slipped in a puddle of your own urine.

When large numbers of young people--including females now, according to research--are taking pages out of my booze book, then we've really got a problem.

One frat-apologizer said he'd been to high school parties that were more wild than college, and I hear that. But, honestly, if these college punks wanna know how to party, they really can just repeat what they did in high school. High school parties are actual fun where people enjoy themselves and have sex and try weed for the first time or whatever...not circuses where dozens+ people spend the next day laughing about how they have to figure out what happened and call in an industrial cleaning crew to manage the vomit/urine cleanup. We're not Rome yet.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 7:55 PM. Reason : tl;dr: It's very clearly an alcohol problem. The pitiful, groupthink frat shit just amplifies it.]

5/12/2017 7:53:56 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"None of my friends would actively try to cover up my injury/death."


They aren't/weren't his friends. He was trying to buy their friendship (he was a new pledge), but they did not care enough about him.

If I ever ruled a country, I would also charge the dude who wanted to call 911 but was slammed against the wall by the VP. In the video he says "I didn't know what to do after that, I felt powerless" [paraphrased]. Ugh, you could should have called 911 you fucking oppressor. But no, he also cared more about his exisiting friends and that he would lose them if he called 911. What a spineless coward who caved into the barbarians.

5/12/2017 7:58:36 PM

theDuke866
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i drank and partied and womanized and whatever while in a fraternity.

I will say, though, that I drank less living in a fraternity house than I did living in the dorms, hands-down...partly because there was always something to do. Sometimes in the dorms, there was nothing to do except hang around and get fucked up.

I suppose by the strictest definitions, you could say there was hazing, but nothing of any significance.

Multiple-generations of unchecked privilege? Well, I was the first in my family to attend college. I think one granddad had maybe a 7th or 8th grade education; he quit school to help the family when his father committed suicide. Other grandparents owned a motorcycle shop. My parents lived in a single-wide trailer until right before I was born, and I grew up plowing fields and picking beans and digging potatoes. Our family income got pretty substantial as a teenager, but it was definitely not "generations of unchecked privilege." There were a few dudes from pretty well-to-do families, but there were others from very modest backgrounds.

There was a ton of mega-sluttiness, and plenty of women who weren't fans of some of the guys' whoring around (and there was plenty of she-whoring, too...prob just as much), but I can only think of one instance where I had concerns that someone had done anything really wrong with a woman. Nobody really knows exactly what went on; we just kinda all had a bad feeling that something wasn't right. That guy didn't get kicked out, but I think that--at least a little due to that unease, he had a growing-apart with a lot of the guys, and ended up leaving on his own.

I have never even seen a roofie, and I am 100% certain that if anyone had ever done anything like that, he would have immediately been persona non grata.

Academics were a mixed bag...we had dudes make awesome grades, and I've seen a guy pull in a 0.0 one semester, haha. There was support on studying with people in the same classes, and an expectation that you didn't fuck up your grades too much, and a degree of academic supervision of pledges that they wouldn't have otherwise had...but it did require a higher degree of self-discipline to get your shit done, because there was ALWAYS something to do and people to hang out with, and sometimes I should have been studying when I was being social.

All in all, we were composed of ROTC dudes, rugby players, and everyday, normal dudes. I'd say roughly in equal proportion, too.

Also, it didn't cost any more than living in the dorms and having a meal plan, and that was deliberate.

I mean, yeah...we had big parties, hired bands, hot tub parties, bunches of girls who hung out around the house, etc...but I think that basically, we had 50-some odd mostly good dudes, at least better than average, who had their problems, but to a much greater extent than most, looked out for each other. It wasn't anything fucking cosmic, and certainly not even remotely as nefarious as some of you seem to think.

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 9:20 PM. Reason : ]

[Edited on May 12, 2017 at 9:48 PM. Reason : ]

5/12/2017 9:19:48 PM

justinh524
Rowan Hater #1
15460 Posts
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Sounds like a guy who licked a bunch of balls as a pledge

5/12/2017 9:34:35 PM

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