Quote :

"The enemy, moreover, has begun to employ a new most cruel bomb, the power which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in the ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation . . . but would lead also to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, how are We to save millions of Our subjects, or ourselves, to atone before the hallowed spirits of our Imperial ancestors? This is the reason We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the Powers."

damn

8/7/2011 11:28:37 PM

Who said they don't?

8/7/2011 11:41:33 PM

They warmed up to us when we started paying the bills for a while.

8/7/2011 11:43:55 PM

they started it.

8/7/2011 11:50:52 PM

Quote :

"Who said they don't?"

i did

next question

8/8/2011 12:03:46 AM

would you like the history of it?


we rebuilt them, we dumped a shit ton of money into their infrastructure, we dismantled their military and let them focus on business

older japanese do hold a grudge from what I understand but its nomore racist that what you'd see in america

younger japanese ignore how much we've done for them (or don't know) and just kick ass

8/8/2011 12:07:26 AM

the REAL question is...how is that not terrorism?

8/8/2011 12:08:22 AM

interesting, thanks saps

it just seems like so recently that we killed a quarter million japanese in the course of 2-3 months

8/8/2011 12:08:36 AM

Time heals all wounds. Even nuclear vaporizations.

8/8/2011 12:08:49 AM

yeah i guess, it just doesn't seem like enough time to me

8/8/2011 12:09:15 AM

it does, but its a generation thing, you interview any 70+ japanese and they dont like us


the rest are indifferent, they may not realize how much money weve given them but they know they're doing good

8/8/2011 12:10:55 AM

Japanese people don't kick ass. They are sick, disturbing fucks who will fuck over anyone given the chance.

8/8/2011 12:11:01 AM

^^^Come on, man. How old are you? Everyone that was old enough to remember this from firsthand experience is now elderly. How many WWII veterans do you know that are still alive?

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 12:11 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2011 12:11:12 AM

They started it and didn't surrender after the first one...

I'm AstralAdvent and i approved this message.

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 12:13 AM. Reason : THESE WOUNDS THEY WILL NOT HE-YULLLLL]

8/8/2011 12:13:20 AM

they're too busy doing stuff like this to find the time to hate us

8/8/2011 12:15:55 AM

stuff like what?

I can't see shit mang

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 12:18 AM. Reason : on second thought I probably don't want to see the image you tried to post]

8/8/2011 12:16:45 AM

this conversation is stupid


I'd rather delve into:

Quote :

"the REAL question is...how is that not terrorism?"

8/8/2011 12:18:02 AM

Because terrorism wasn't invented back then. Duh!

8/8/2011 12:20:42 AM

it wasn't terrorism because it was a goddamn war.

8/8/2011 12:44:09 AM

we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians

makes 9/11 look like nothing

8/8/2011 12:45:28 AM

precisely, theres a valid arguement on both sides, it was happening even before hiroshima with the dresden bombings

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 12:47 AM. Reason : 9/11<100k dead]

8/8/2011 12:46:47 AM

a bunch of al-qaeda sympathizers ITT

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 1:11 AM. Reason : u]

8/8/2011 1:02:15 AM

Dresden bombing killed more people. Include them on your mourning list.

8/8/2011 1:10:41 AM

Quote :

"we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians makes 9/11 look like nothing"

nah, the US is also killing shitloads of civilians now, except it's been spread out over 10 years. direct civilian casualties are over 150k. this is only counting documented violent deaths. does not include excess deaths due to our occupation, estimated to be 600k-1m

8/8/2011 1:17:37 AM

RABBLE RABBLE

MY COUNTRY IS A TERRORIST

RABBLE RABBLE

I ENJOY THE BENEFITS IN MY COUNTRY

8/8/2011 1:18:41 AM

i don't think Dresden had nearly as many as casualties as Hiroshima or Nagasaki

unless you believe the numbers published in Nazi propaganda

8/8/2011 1:20:06 AM

ok, just to keep it simple were talking one day death tolls

8/8/2011 1:20:26 AM

IM A CHRISTIAN BUT IM OKAY WITH LOTS OF PEOPLE DYING AS LONG AS THEY AREN'T WHITE AND LIVE FAR AWAY FROM ME

8/8/2011 1:20:55 AM

i still don't think it's close

post-war estimates by third parties seem to put the Dresden toll around 25,000

still horrendous

8/8/2011 1:21:42 AM

and anybody who plays the state of war argument is full of shit and narrow minded, they declared war on us over a decade ago

8/8/2011 1:22:05 AM

I'm learning in this thread...so therefore I like it

never knew about Dredsden

8/8/2011 1:23:25 AM

eh depends on the sources, I've read closer to 75k on dresden, but its all biased


even at 25k its still 25k civilians, terrorism at its best

8/8/2011 1:26:04 AM

This reminds me of a thread that DirtyGreek made some 8-9 years ago, full of numbers of dead in many countries that can be attributed directly or indirectly to the US.

His post:

http://www.lossless-audio.com/usa/index0.php?item=vice

Quote :

"The Vice Guide To American Foreign Policy Dear Canada, We know you are sick of Americana. We know you grew up with everything from The Fonz to the word “couch” rammed down your throat and you see the American flag as a giant sports icon for jocks - but you’re wrong. The average American has nothing to do with your plight. If you trace the blame for their foreign policy, for example, you end up going past Americans, through most of their elected representatitves, through the CIA, and into the lap of a small cabal of corporate-connected leaders who have little regard for the democratic principles most Americans think their country stands for. As world-renowned Mr. Nice Guy, Dalai Lama recently said following 9/11, "As far as domestic policy is concerned, they think democracy, democracy, democracy," he said. "But American foreign policy is not much concerned for democratic principles." When fundamentalists and moderates alike talk about “evil America” they are talking about a handful of corporate-influenced crimes most Americans know nothing about. And the reason your average American doesn’t know anything about it is that they’re working too hard. When we see the American flag we see construction workers and waitresses busting their asses and going into debt trying to make things better for their families. They get home too tired to read the paper and get their world news from late-night comedians. Before September 11th the deal was this: The American people agreed to work their asses off and not ask questions about what the government was up to as long as the government promised to continue to provide the American way of life. As Ollie North put it, “the American people don’t want to know.” Then on September 11th, everything changed. A group of lunatics had been using foreign policy blunders abroad to vilify America and start a war. All Americans became victims of wrongdoings that none of them had anything to do with and the American way of life had become threatened. For the first time in decades the American people want to know what’s been going on behind their backs and the answers are not pretty... Philippines The 1899 Filipino-American War is one of those nasty little conflicts that you won’t find a lot about in your high school history textbook. Call it the first Vietnam. During the 1898 Spanish-American War, the US help the Filipinos gain independence from Spain. Then they declare the country an American colony. A brutal war follows. Many of the scorched-earth tactics used in Vietnam are first used here. More than 100,000 Filipinos die. A large anti-imperialism movement starts in the US. “We do not intend to free, but subjugate the people of the Philippines. We have gone there to conquer, not to redeem,” wrote early celebrity activist Mark Twain. In 1945, the Americans return to the Philippines. Even though they have a common enemy – Japan – America fights leftist forces known as Huks. The US defeat the Huks, and install a series of puppet presidents, culminating in the absurdly corrupt Ferdinand Marcos. He and his high-heel-obsessed wife bilk the poverty-ridden country dry for three decades, and then retire comfortably in Hawaii. Iran 1953 - The CIA’s first big takedown. The democratically-elected Prime Minister Mossadegh had to go. He was talking some crazy talk, like nationalizing Iran’s oil. A CIA-sponsored coup kills him and restores the Shah to absolute power kicking off 25 years of repression and torture. Iran’s oil is returned to its rightful owners, the Americans and the British. This, of course, sets the stage for a radical Islamic revolution in 1979, when the Ayatollah Khomeini takes over, holds Americans hostage, burns many American flags, and pisses off rednecks across America. Guatemala 1953 - Jacobo Arbenz also had to go. The progressive, democratically-elected president is also talking that crazy talk - you know, land reform, civil liberties, nationalizing the Washington-connected United Fruit Company. The CIA organizes a massive disinformation campaign and coup. Next up: 40 years of bad, bad things you don’t even want to think about – American-trained death squads and torture-specialists, disappearances, mass executions. Victims: 100,000. Middle East In the '50s, the Eisenhower Doctrine states the United States “is prepared to use armed forces to assist” any Middle Eastern country “requesting assistance against armed aggression from any country controlled by international communism.” In other words, no one is allowed is to fuck around in the Middle East or its oil fields except the United States. The US tries to overthrow the Syrian government (twice), lands 14,000 troops in Lebanon and conspires to overthrow and assassinate Arab nationalist Gamel Abdel Nasser in Egypt (US corporate interests were not happy about his nationalization of the Suez Canal and advocacy of Arab socialism). The US supports Israel with billions of dollars of aid, despite its brutal treatment of Palestinians and massacres in Lebanon and watches while decades of Israeli agression unfolds - and, like the Energizer bunny, its "still going!" Indonesia 1957 - President Sukarno is another "troublemaker." He takes back Indonesian companies from their former colonial masters, the Dutch. He takes a trip to Moscow. He refuses to crack down on communists. The CIA launches a disinformation campaign, tries to blackmail him with a fake sex film, plots his assassination and teams up with dissident military officers to start a full-scale war against the government. Sukarno, unlike many on the Agency’s hit list, somehow survives. 1965 - Sukarno is finally overthrown by General Suharto. The US helps him track down anyone suspected of being communist. The New York Times calls what follows “one of the most savage mass slayings of modern political history.” Up to 1,000,000 are murdered. Vietnam After watching the French get their asses kicked halfway to Montparnasse, the US gets embroiled in a civil war pitting communist nationalist forces against a corrupt, pro-west government. In 1961, the first young American men start arriving home in body bags. Before it’s over, more than one million Vietnamese and 50,000 Americans will die, Jimi Hendrix will play Woodstock, the Beatles will form and break up, and the American psyche will be radically transformed. In 1973, the US finally admits defeat, forever dooming it to need to overcome the “Vietnam Syndrome” (see Rambo). Cambodia 1969 - Nixon and Kissinger begin their secret “carpet bombings” of Cambodia. They say it is to kill Viet Cong hiding out in the Cambodian jungle. Hundreds of thousands of Cambodian civilians die. 1970 - Washington finally helps overthrow troublesome Prince Sihanouk in a coup. The US enlists the genocidal maniac Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge to help fight the Viet Cong. Five years later, Pol Pot takes over, declares “Year Zero,” kills anyone with an education, or even wearing glasses, and sends everyone to the countryside to work in agricultural labor camps. More than 2,000,000 die in his “killing fields” (see The Killing Fields). The Congo/Zaire 1960 - Patrice Lumumba becomes the Congo’s first prime minister after independence from Belgium. But the Belgians don’t quite leave. They keep their hands on the vast mineral wealth in the Katanga province, where the Americans also have a piece of the action. Lumumba is defiant, calling for the Congo’s economic and political liberation. In other words, he is doomed. In January 1961, he is assassinated with help from the CIA, under orders from Eisenhower himself. His body is chopped up into little pieces and burned in acid. Mobutu Sese Seko takes over, changes the name to Zaire, and begins one of the most corrupt and bloody dictatorships in modern times. Even his CIA handlers are amazed at his cruelty. Thirty years later, despite its rich natural resources, the people of the Congo are still dirt-poor, Mobutu is a multibillionaire, and the country is in chaos. In 1997, Mobutu is overthrown, and retires to the Cote d’Azur. The country slides into a civil war that has claimed more than 1,000,000 lives. Cuba 1959 - When Fidel Castro rolls into Havana New Years Day he isn’t a commie – he is a nationalist and an opportunist. But he did take over Cuba’s national industries. And that, as we’ve learned, is something the US doesn’t look kindly on. The Americans begin a comically disastrous campaign to oust Castro. They help launch a full-scale invasion at the Bay of Pigs and are crushed. They launch gunboat attacks, bombings, biological warfare. New evidence has just come out that the Joint Chiefs of Staff even considered committing terrorist acts and then blaming them on Cuba as a pretext to invade again. (see Project Northwoods) They try to send Castro exploding cigars. Spray poison on his beard. True stories. The US issues sanctions and a trade embargo that, more than anything, ensures Castro remains in power."

8/8/2011 1:30:31 AM

Quote :

"Chile 1973 - Salvador Allende was a “dangerous” man. He was popular, democratically elected, and a leftist. Against the objections of many inside the US State Department, the CIA, pushed by then Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, helps the military overthrow the government. Allende is killed. General Pinochet closes off the country to the outside world. Tanks roll in, soldiers round up students, stadiums turn into execution fields, the country is gripped by fear. For two decades, Pinochet rules with a brutal hand, and thousands of students, union organizers and other bad apples are “disappeared.” (see the movie Missing) East Timor December 1975 - Indonesia invades the small island of East Timor, which had proclaimed its independence after Portugal took off. The day before the invasion, US President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Kissinger were in Indonesia meeting with Indonesian President Suharto. Interesting, huh? Amnesty International estimates that by 1989, Indonesian troops had killed 200,000 people out of a population of between 600,000 and 700,000. The US supplies Indonesia with aid, guns, and training throughout. Nicaragua 1978 - the leftist Sandinistas overthrow the US-backed Somoza dictatorship. Reagan becomes obsessed with taking out the Cuba-and-Soviet-friendly government, enlisting an army of mercenaries, drug dealers and ex-Somoza National Guardsmen. The Contras attack schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, and bombing. When Congress cuts off funds, Reagan’s “freedom fighters” are financed by CIA drug-dealing and secret arms sales to Iran in what comes to be known as the Iran-Contra Affair. El Salvador During El Salvador’s bloody civil war (1980-92), the US funds, trains, and secretly fights alongside a military that operates less like a traditional army than a loose confederation of homicidal fraternities. By the end of the war, 75,000 Salvadorans are dead. Panama During the '80s, Manny Noriega was George Bush’s nigga. On the CIA payroll, he helped the US run drugs, launder money and ship arms to the company's operations in Nicaragua and El Salvador. But ol’ Pineapple-Face became a problem. Turned out he was giving aid to Fidel Castro, laundering money for Pablo Escobar and talking smack about US imperialism. Plus he knew way too much about the whole Iran-Contra affair. Dude had to go. In December 1989, Bush sends in the Green Berets to arrest him for drug dealing. A whole Panama City barrio is leveled. The official body count is 500-something, others say 3,000. Noriega sits in a Florida jail feeling confused. Iraq In the 80s, Saddam Hussein is America's ally. The US sends him weapons and money as he fights a seemingly endless war against Iran, murders his political opponents, and gasses the Kurds. In 1991, Saddam is pissed off at neighboring Kuwait (a country invented by Britain) for undercutting the price of oil. He invades. The US forms an international coalition to "liberate" Kuwait. Saddam sends an army of barefoot conscripts. For more than 40 days and nights, 177 million pounds of bombs fall on Iraq - the most concentrated aerial onslaught in the history of the world. The US uses cancer-causing depleted uranium weapons; they bury soldiers alive; they bomb retreating troops and civilians. At the war's end, the US turns its back on the Kurds and other anti-Saddam forces (see Three Kings). While Saddam remains in power, US sanctions and continued bombing keep food, medicine, and clean water from everyday Iraqis. According to the UN, over one million Iraqis have died, half of them children. Afghanistan Beginning in the 1970s, the US pours billions of dollars into overthrowing a pro-Soviet government. The CIA funds, trains, and arms a guerrilla army of Islamic extremists known as the Mujahideen. The Soviets are driven out, in their version of Vietnam. More than a million Afghan are dead, three million disabled, and five million made refugees. The country slides into civil war in which an even more radical group of Pakistan-educated students and uneducated hillbillies known as the Taliban take over. The country becomes a haven for anti-American terrorist groups and women-haters. Lies flourish. While outwardly criticizing the Taliban, behind the scenes the CIA and American oil companies jockey for leverage to build a pipeline across the country. Yugoslavia 1999 - After the Serbs start ”ethnic cleansing" Albanians in the Yugoslavian province of Kosovo, the US and NATO launch 70 days of air strikes against Serbia (an act that had nothing to do with corporate interest and was actually pretty reasonable). Thousands of Serbs are killed. The ethnic Albanian KLA guerrilla army, a drug-dealing group of thugs who were first accused of ethnic cleansing Serbs by The New York Times back in 1982, start an open season on Serbs living in Kosovo. The bombs stop, and Serb demagogue Slobodan Milosevic is driven from power by a popular movement. Colombia 2001- Colombia's three-decade-old civil war is still going strong, despite, or some might say, as a result of $1.4 billion of US military aid. The country is a chaotic death trap. Marxist rebels hold large portions of the country; American mercenaries and defense department front companies like DynCorp are covertly helping the inept Colombian military; right-wing paramilitaries are massacring civilians; and everyone has their hands in the super-lucrative drug trade. Most people don't know that American forces have been around for while. In the early 90s, a secret group code-named Centra Spike launch a covert operation to take out Pablo Escobar, a major cocaine lord who made the fatal mistake of giving money to the poor and talking shit about American imperialism. The Colombian government and the secret American unit go into business with Escobar's rival the Cali Cartel. Escobar is finally killed. The Cali Cartel's power is solidified and the flow of cocaine into the US only increases. Sources/Suggested reading The Trial of Henry Kissinger - Christopher Hitchens, Verso, 2001. Panama Deception - documentary film. Winner 1992 Academy Award for Best Documentary. Director: Barbara Trent. Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire - Chalmers Johnson, Henry Holt, 2000. Weakness and Deceit: U.S. Policy and El Salvador - Raymond Bonner, Times Books, New York, 1984. The War Conspiracy: The Secret Road to the Second Indochina War - Peter Dale Scott, Bobbs Merrill, New York and Indianapolis, 1972. Cocaine Politics: Drugs, Armies and the CIA in Central America - Peter Dale Scott and Jonathan Marshall. University of California Press, 1991. Coming to Jakarta: A Poem About Terror - Peter Dale Scott, New Directions, New York, 1989. East Timor: Genocide in Paradise - Matthew Jardine, Common Courage Press, 1999. Killing Pablo: The Hunt for the World's Greatest Outlaw - Mark Bowden. Atlantic Monthly Press, 2001. Between Despair and Hope: Windows on My Middle East Journey 1967-1992 - Margarita Skinner, UNICEF Health Coordinator in Baghdad from 1991-1992. The Radcliffe Press, London and New York, 1998. UNICEF Report August 1999: Iraq surveys show "humanitarian emergency" http://www.unicef.org/newsline/99pr29.htm"

8/8/2011 1:31:06 AM

Wow they lowered the Dresden kill count to 25k in 2010? Wow, man, what an asterisk.

What the hell Vonnegut you have misled me.

8/8/2011 1:35:25 AM

ugh, here comes oep killing threads, but yes everything ive read on dresden has been 75k on the bottom end and 125k on the top

8/8/2011 1:41:25 AM

Terrorism is only committed by non-state actors. Anything done directly by a state is by definition not terrorism (although a state can sponsor terrorism).

That's not saying actions committed by a state can't be just as bad or worse than terrorism, it's just not terrorism.

8/8/2011 1:43:10 AM

ask the taliban if they consider themselves a state

8/8/2011 1:49:46 AM

The Taliban aren't terrorists, they are Insurgents.

8/8/2011 1:53:17 AM

insurgents that have been recognized as a state government by the US

8/8/2011 1:55:34 AM

What's your point? They aren't terrorists. They used to be in charge of a state (and sponsored terrorism) but now they are insurgents.

Point is, the atomic bombings were not terrorism.

8/8/2011 1:59:14 AM

please explain

8/8/2011 2:34:58 AM

I really want to hear this

8/8/2011 2:37:20 AM

I already did. States can't commit terrorism.

[Edited on August 8, 2011 at 2:52 AM. Reason : Theres no clear cut definition of terrorism though]

8/8/2011 2:50:53 AM

Quote :

"Time heals all wounds."

Tell that to the Jews. All they do is hold grudges.

8/8/2011 7:18:41 AM

You people have never opened a book, apparently.

The civilian death toll at nagasaki and hiroshima pales in comparison to the civilian death toll caused by the japanese during the war. Current estimates put the # between 5 and 30 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Mass_killings

In fact, Japan killed more people during WWII than any other country. Including the Germans and the holocaust.

8/8/2011 8:21:22 AM

yeah japan pretty much effed china in the effhole.

8/8/2011 8:22:39 AM

total war

8/8/2011 8:28:00 AM

I hold no sympathy for Japan in regards to the nuclear bombings. The Japanese military did fucked up shit to civilians and POWs during the war.

8/8/2011 8:29:34 AM

And unlike the Germans, who made it a crime to even consider the holocaust didn't happen, the Japanese have never apologized to China (or anyone else) and even refuse to acknowledge these massacres even happened. They aren't taught in schools, they aren't on any official records, nothing.

8/8/2011 8:30:37 AM