Who all had the acupuncture say yeaaaaaaaa?

Seriously though, Tell me about it. How much $$$, do you reccomend it?

This has been a Krallum query

9/12/2011 8:05:03 AM

i have a groupon to use for accupuncture...havent scheduled my appointment yet but ill check in afterwards. lol

9/12/2011 8:09:10 AM

who has had this shit?

I'm Krallum and I approved this message

9/16/2011 1:38:26 PM

It's quackery. You're also potentially exposing yourself to infection for no good reason. What symptoms are you actually trying to treat?

9/16/2011 1:52:50 PM

Its not quackery, though there have been studies performed that show that simply briefly pinching the skin in the regions designated by acupuncture will get the same effect. Needles sticking into the skin not needed.

9/16/2011 2:34:01 PM

It's quackery because it's a placebo marketed as more than a placebo. That's the definition of quackery.

9/16/2011 2:38:18 PM

Yes, there are plenty of studies that show that there is a strong placebo effect associated with acupuncture.
However, there are also studies that show that while a strong placebo effect exists, there is also a definitive benefit regarding the acupuncture treatment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4493011.stm

This is all independent of the inherent risks associated with acupuncture, but to say it is pure placebo is naive and ill-informed. At worst it is still under debate, but its far from snake oil.

9/16/2011 2:58:27 PM

You go with a bbc article written about a study with 14 patients in it. I'll go with the bulk of medical literature and study results like this one from the Clinical Journal of Pain:

http://journals.lww.com/clinicalpain/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2008&issue=03000&article=00005&type=abstract

Quote :

"Objective: To compare true and sham acupuncture in their abilities to relieve arm pain and improve arm function in individuals with arm pain due to repetitive use. Methods: Participants with persistent arm pain (N=123) were randomly assigned to true or sham acupuncture groups and received 8 treatments over 4 weeks. The primary outcome was intensity of pain (10-point scale) and secondary outcomes were arm symptoms, arm function, and grip strength. Outcomes were measured during treatment (at 2 and 4 wk) and 1 month after treatment ended. Results: Arm pain scores improved in both groups during the treatment period, but improvements were significantly greater in the sham group than in the true acupuncture group. This difference disappeared by 1 month after treatment ended. The true acupuncture group experienced more side effects, predominately mild pain at time of treatments. Discussion: Sham acupuncture reduced arm pain more than true acupuncture during treatment, but the difference did not persist after 1 month. Mild side effects from true acupuncture may have blunted any positive treatment effects. Overall, this study did not find evidence to support the effectiveness of true acupuncture in treatment of persistent arm pain due to repetitive use. "

If the fake needles do better than the real needles, what does that tell you? Additionally, there is absolutely no scientific support for chi, meridians, pathways, or any of the other garbage that acupunture tries to use to explain how it "works".

Incidentally the bbc article you posted does have a bit of useful information, which it bolded and repeated twice:

Quote :

"Professor Henry McQuay, professor of pain relief at the University of Oxford and member of the Bandolier group that looks at the evidence behind different medical treatments, said: "The great bulk of the randomised controlled trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo. "

The fact is that it's been proven that it doesn't even matter where you stick the needles, or whether you even use real needles at all. It's woo. There's as much of a "debate" about it as there is for homeopathy.

Suggested reading: http://skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2011 3:27:02 PM

Who cares if it's just a placebo effect? If it helps relieve the pain then it's doing what it's supposed to be doing.

I had acupuncture done a few years ago when I was having pain in my knee that the orthopedic doctor couldn't pinpoint that the issue was. The theory was that I had torn or strained my meniscus while skiing but it wasn't showing up in x-rays. Had three acupuncture sessions at the doctor's office. It did help a lot with the pain I was having at the time. Now the only time my knee bothers me is when I've been skiing for a whole weekend, which makes sense with what the doctor thinks the issue is.

I couldn't tell you how much it was since my insurance at the time covered it. If it was the sort of thing that I had to pay $texas for, I'm not sure I would do it. But considering it gave me long term pain relief without relying on narcotics, I thought it was a worthwhile treatment.

9/16/2011 3:57:50 PM

Because their effects are unreliable and unpredictable not to mention dishonest. You're opening yourself up for infection based on nothing, and maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. I prefer my bodily treatments to be supported by scientific and clinical support.

9/16/2011 4:59:01 PM

Only way I could see it leading to infection is if you were getting it done in a non-clinical setting. If it's being done at a doctor's office or a licensed and certified office, it would be no different from any other medical procedure or even going to a licensed spa for that matter. If you're going into the back room of some random Chinese herbalist then yeah you might run into issues. But if you go get a tattoo done in some dude's garage you might run into issues too

9/16/2011 5:03:21 PM

I wouldn't recommend getting tattooed as a medical treatment either.

(more seriously, I question the licensing process and standards based around a sham treatment anyhow)

[Edited on September 16, 2011 at 5:12 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2011 5:11:31 PM

True, but it has the same concerns as acupuncture. Using clean needles, gloves, etc. A good tattoo parlor should be clinically clean.

When I had it done at the doctor's office, it really was no different from any other treatment you would expect at a doctor's office. If I had managed to get an infection in that setting, then I would have been seriously concerned about all the other procedures I had had done there as well.

9/16/2011 5:19:39 PM

I wasn't trying to suggest that actual medical treatments don't have a risk of infection. Far from it. Nearly every medical treatment has the risk of injury. I just prefer to take that risk on scientifically and clinically proven procedures rather than shams.

9/16/2011 5:47:41 PM

I had the opportunity to try it for free, twice.

The first time was for an injury to help reduce pain. The second time was for general well-being.

Long story short - it didn't hurt (it was actually a relaxing experience), but I didn't feel any different/better afterward. I would do it again if it was free, but not if I had to pay for it.

9/17/2011 5:05:06 PM

I have polycystic ovarian syndrome- which basically means I rarely get a period. Since my husband and I are not in a hurry to have children, but wouldn’t be upset if I were to get pregnant, our fertility doctor recommended we try acupuncture.

It cost about $80 a visit. Our insurance did not cover it until you get to certain $ amount- and then its only partially covered at that. I would go every week to every other week- so the cost was pretty great. They also recommended that I take some herbs but they were cheap.

I really enjoyed my appointments- just because it was a time for me lay and relax for at least an hour. The needles didn’t hurt for the most part- some points were more painful than others but it was more of a light dull pain.

I ended up going for a few months and I believe the acupuncture worked as I got my period was regular for first time ever. But in the end my husband and I decided that it wasn’t worth the cost. It’s been about 6 months since I went last and my periods have gone back to my "normal" but I knew it wasn’t a cure or anything.

9/19/2011 1:07:12 PM

so what would be their explanation for how needles in your skin restores a normal cycle? Besides the relaxation reducing the stress.

9/19/2011 1:39:53 PM

As mentioned earlier, the hoopla of chi and gateways in your body is mostly unsubstantiated hocus-pocus at this point. However, one of the theories put out there in terms of why acupuncture might work is that you are essentially stabbing yourself all over the place in ways that your body notices in a big way, and it goes into a recovery mode and releases endorphins. If done right, the needles don't really cause much damage on their own, but your body's healing response acts all the same.

9/19/2011 3:30:02 PM

Sorry, I’ve been on vacation so I havnt been on a computer!

The way I understood it was the theory behind it all is that your systems are connected- similar to reflexology. The “administrator” was very specific in where she placed the needles-she would measure points on my body several times before placing a needle and would move the needle in different angles till it got the exact point she was looking for. I could actually feel a difference when the needle was moved even a hair- I don’t know how to explain it really becuase it didnt hurt or anything but it could go from feeling nothing after the inital prick to being able to feel it constantly with just a little tweak (and that was what she was looking for)

FYI- I consistently had one needle placed between my eyes, one basically on each of my ovaries, one on each of my wrists and several on my ankles and shins of both legs.

9/28/2011 4:42:42 PM

Quackery

9/28/2011 4:43:23 PM

^^ I can convincingly make it look like I'm meticulously placing needles too, but study after study has shown it doesn't matter where they put them or if they even use real needles at all. Reflexology is a scam as well.

9/28/2011 4:57:42 PM

i was punctured with a needle the other day and now i'm immune to the most common types of the flu for a year.

9/28/2011 8:42:39 PM

I might think about getting one of those this year. I've never been inclined to in the past but now that I work in a building full of people (worked mostly alone since 2003 before that) there's no telling what kind of cooties will be floating around.

9/28/2011 9:27:13 PM

My mom goes once week. She goes for her eyes, and her back.
She has had 7+ eye surgeries caused from a bad lasic procedure. The results went from cataracs, to repair surgery, to detatched retinas, to more repair surgeries, and a lens replacement.
She had blind spots and wandering focal points and snakes of remaining side effects, that the normal doctors could do nothing about. With acupuncture, she is about 80% better than before placebo or not, it is worth it. To me it is either real, or psycologically working anyway.

She has also had reduce pain from two herniated discs.

9/28/2011 9:44:38 PM

My aunt just completed school to become an acupuncturist, she only needs to pass some exams. Needless to say she practices on basically everyone in the family. I haven't gotten a treatment yet but she has convinced me to try some other eastern medicine stuff (mostly just messing around with Tai chi)


personal anecdote:

my dad has had some off and on knee pain. He said my aunt started putting a few needles in various parts of his leg and then poked one right into his big toe. He said that he felt an insane pain throughout his leg, after the poke in his toe, and then it went away. After he got up he said his knee felt great and it felt fine for a few weeks.

*shrug* Im still hoping she gets me a reduced price treatment, Ill report back if she does.

9/28/2011 9:53:42 PM

I'm thinking about having a wake for critical thinking. He had a good run but I guess it's time we move on to pseudoscience and quackery.

9/29/2011 8:45:38 AM

disco_stu needs to work on his trolling

i mean infections? weak shit man

9/29/2011 9:09:44 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/oct/18/dozens-killed-acupuncture-needles

http://whatstheharm.net/acupuncture.html

post hoc ergo propter hoc

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 9:58 AM. Reason : .]

9/29/2011 9:37:38 AM

people who think acupuncture is a medically sound treatment for anything probably own well-worn copies of The Secret.

9/29/2011 9:49:36 AM

Quote :

"one of the theories put out there in terms of why acupuncture might work is that you are essentially stabbing yourself all over the place in ways that your body notices in a big way, and it goes into a recovery mode and releases endorphins. If done right, the needles don't really cause much damage on their own, but your body's healing response acts all the same."

I could see that.

^^

Quote :

"Eighty-six people have been accidentally killed by badly trained acupuncturists over the past 45 years, according to Britain's leading expert on alternative medicine."

So basically, if you go to a shit doctor you get shit treatment.

9/29/2011 10:09:25 AM

Just to add my two cents, we have had a few lectures on acupuncture in med school. Basically there is not one good study that says there is any benefit what so ever.

^ Most people who provide acupuncture are not doctors.

9/29/2011 10:26:48 AM

^ Doesn't mean NO doctors are trained in acupuncture. When I had it done, it was done by a doctor, not some random Chinese dude in an alley shop like they have up in NYC

9/29/2011 10:30:33 AM

I don't have an opinion on whether acupuncture works or not. When talking about general, non-implantation medical procedures, you can't base your entire argument on the risk for infections. If you do then you're assuming that the patient is going into a back alley to places that advertise "Discount for Uniboob Implants" and "2-for-1 Mexican Botox Special".

Of course a procedure from there is going to be shit compared to state of the art therapies from actual hospitals.

Thus, disco_stu runs into another thread with a pocket full of bullshit and trolls away

9/29/2011 10:34:54 AM

^I agree but why even expose yourself to the risk(although small) and not only that, you are paying them to do it. My issue with acupuncture is that most of "doctors" providing the service are just preying off of people's misfortune. People want a cheaper fix for their illness or traditional medicine is not working for them either way acupuncture is not likely to help them at all.

9/29/2011 10:41:59 AM

I am really am saddened that urging people to think critically is interpreted as trolling. Willful ignorance, honestly?

The only reason it's at the hospitals in the first place is the CAM industry infesting our medical academia because stupid people buy woo. Not because "it works" or because it's "state-of-the-art".

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 10:45 AM. Reason : .]

9/29/2011 10:44:44 AM

^ yep, or those who will prey on those disillusioned by traditional medicine because they have some untreatable condition and are willing to try anything, including snake oil.

9/29/2011 10:48:57 AM

Quote :

"My issue with acupuncture is that most of "doctors" providing the service are just preying off of people's misfortune."

This is why it's important to do research on who you decide to go to, not just pick some random dude out of the phone book.

People spend money on dumb shit all the time to make themselves happy or feel better. Even if acupuncture is just a placebo effect, is it any worse than someone who regularly pays for massages or coffee? As long as it's being done in a safe, clean environment by someone who knows what they're doing, who cares? It's when people try to cut corners or be cheap that they run into trouble it seems like.

9/29/2011 11:16:05 AM

Yes, acupuncture is more invasive than coffee or massage therapy. Yes, acceptance of acupuncture as a medical procedure is more damaging to scientific medical inquiry than coffee or massage therapy. Coffee and massage therapy don't make claims to their effectiveness that they can't really back up and are not intentionally deceiving you.

Yes, it is worse than coffee or massage therapy. It's not the people spending their money that bothers me. It's the people spending their money and then coming back to message boards like this with their post hoc confirmations and convincing other people spend their money (and expose themselves to unneeded risk of hepatitis B for instance) It's cancerous non-scientific woo based on mysticism.

9/29/2011 11:22:51 AM

^ summed it up pretty well. The issue is that people are now seeing it as a legitimate medical practice when it is not. If someone wants to go waste their money I wouldnt care. The problem is some people are becoming convinced that alternative medicine is a better than traditional medicine. I have seen a ton of people who had ruptured disk go see a chiropractor who ended up making their problem much worse.

9/29/2011 11:29:58 AM

The only way you're going to get exposed to hepatitis is if you're going to a place that is using unsterilized needles. In my experience a legit place has their needles set up in the same way as a tattoo parlor. If I don't see needles wrapped in that way I'm not going to let them stick it in me.

As with your other claims, again it has to do with going to someone with extensive training and medical background, and going to some dude with a shop. You wouldn't get a boob job from some random dude. Why would you let some random dude manipulate your body with needles?

That's fine if you would never get acupuncture done yourself or don't believe in it or whatever. But for some people it works. There's risks just like anything else in life but again, when I had it done those risks were explained to me in full detail, just like any other procedure. I can only feel so bad for people that don't do any research before having something done to their body.

Quote :

" The problem is some people are becoming convinced that alternative medicine is a better than traditional medicine. I have seen a ton of people who had ruptured disk go see a chiropractor who ended up making their problem much worse."

There have always been people like that. Just look at Christian Scientists as one example. This is nothing new. But it's their body and their choice.

[Edited on September 29, 2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason : a]

9/29/2011 11:31:43 AM

i just had it done thanks to a livingsocial deal.

wont do it again.

9/29/2011 1:54:59 PM

86 people in 45 years....

That is better than any other medicine or field of doctors, isn't it?

9/29/2011 4:52:40 PM

86 people reported and discovered by that particular writer of the...you know what, fuck it. I'm out. Enjoy your delusions, folks.

9/29/2011 4:54:10 PM

http://www.acuwatch.org
http://www.quackwatch.org

10/1/2011 6:46:51 PM