There's a widely-held perception that Roman Catholicism does not follow the bible, or does not hold it to be very important. The average Catholic may unfortunately have less overall knowledge of scripture than Protestants, but scripture is very important to the Catholic tradition. A great example of that is the Catholic worship service, called the mass.

The mass is relatively standardized and much of the service is taken directly from scripture. The mass can be broken down into four basic parts, each with a scriptural basis. I will present some examples here--I'm not going to give a zillion examples because nobody will read it. Some parts are direct quotes from the bible, others slightly rework some text.

Introductory Rite

There are some introductory prayers said here. One of them is right out of 2 Corinthians 13:14

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. "

another prayer paraphrases Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven, and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

Liturgy of the Word

During this part of the mass usually someone reads a selection from the old testament and a selection from an epistle. A psalm is read or sung. Then there is a Gospel reading and the priest gives a sermon/homily. So that's four readings straight out of the bible.

Liturgy of the Eucharist

This is the part of the mass where communion is prepared. One of the acclamations is slightly paraphrased from Isa 6:3, "...Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;the whole earth is full of his glory"

another is Luke 22:19 "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

the Lord's Prayer is said. Before receiving communion prayers recall biblical passages such as Luke 7:6 “...Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof.

Concluding Rite

there are a number of biblical references here but one of the closing prayers used comes from Judg 18:6 "The priest answered them, “Go in peace. Your journey has the LORD’s approval."


So as you can see a large portion of the Catholic worship service is either reading directly from the bible or saying prayers that slightly paraphrase scripture.

9/22/2011 12:38:49 AM

Quote :

"So as you can see a large portion of the Catholic worship service is either reading directly from the bible or saying prayers that slightly paraphrase scripture."

So what?

Just because they say some lines of scripture, I should believe they follow scripture?

The Jews also quote scripture.

What is the point of reading scripture if nothing is being taught? Never in scripture is there a mention of people merely going through and ritually reciting some lines of text.

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 12:49 AM. Reason : late]

9/22/2011 12:46:38 AM

9/22/2011 12:52:18 AM

Does anyone with understanding actually believe God smites cities because of homosexuality?

Also I forgot to actually ask a myth to be busted.

Did the Catholic Church really help Nazi war criminals escape to Argentina and south America?

I believe Bishop Hudal, the close confidant to many Popes was the man who did this.

He is quoted as saying:

"I felt duty bound after 1945 to devote my charitable work mainly to former National Socialists and Fascists, especially to so called 'war criminals'"
At least he was charitable enough to send them through the Ratlines to South America.

Luckily the church later replaced him with Bishop Draganovic, and he lessened the Nazi smuggling. But he increased the Croat Utashi war Criminal smuggling.

So is this a myth, or am I just overreacting to a simple mistake.


[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 1:12 AM. Reason : ]

9/22/2011 12:53:54 AM

it would be a reasonable conclusion if one believes the events described in Genesis 19

9/22/2011 1:08:48 AM

Quote :

"it would be a reasonable conclusion if one believes the events described in Genesis 19"

Yeah, except it isn't the time of Sodom and Gomorrah anymore. You think God would send a hurricane, to deal with the current iniquity of the land?

9/22/2011 1:14:55 AM

Quote :

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

Heb. 13:8 (NIV)

9/22/2011 1:21:13 AM

Quote :

"For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath."

Deut 4:31

Seeing as we are grafted into the tribe of Israel, which is the name of the Church of the saints. I fail to see how full destruction would possible be part of the will of God.

'Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? said the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

Eze 18;23

And why should those walking in the ways of iniquity without God, not also be given the same chance to repent that we had?

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 1:29 AM. Reason : /]

9/22/2011 1:28:27 AM

i don't give a fuck either way

i'm just pointing out why some folks might deduce this shit from the bible

9/22/2011 1:33:12 AM

Oh.

9/22/2011 1:34:36 AM

It takes a supreme amount of arrogance to assume that the religion you were brought up with (which is commonly practiced in the part of the world you were born in) is the only true way to achieve eternal salvation. Fuck.

9/22/2011 1:35:02 AM

do you automatically assume everyone needs salvation from something?

9/22/2011 1:37:24 AM

You have no basis for that argument. Where is the arrogance?

If we believe it is the only means to be saved why would we not preach it?

People come to Christ through different ways, but the end result is always the same. And it is always through Christ.

9/22/2011 1:37:41 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, except it isn't the time of Sodom and Gomorrah anymore. You think God would send a hurricane, to deal with the current iniquity of the land?"

The issue isn't whether or not God would do that now, it's why did he do it then. God is unchanging, right?

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 1:39 AM. Reason : ]

9/22/2011 1:39:17 AM

Quote :

"do you automatically assume everyone needs salvation from something?"

isn't that the name of the game? people don't pray just for the fuck of it, do they?

9/22/2011 1:43:48 AM

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come to me; and if not, I will know"

Due to their exceeding wickedness Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, according to justice. I'd postulate that it was not based solely on their sexual practice. Though it may have been part. Normally when their is a cry going out against a city it is because it is filled with murder and innocent blood.

9/22/2011 1:45:38 AM

kinda like when ra's al ghul tried to take down gothom?

9/22/2011 1:47:07 AM

oh no

won't be no postulatin'

9/22/2011 1:50:19 AM

Quote :

"Luckily the church later replaced him with Bishop Draganovic, and he lessened the Nazi smuggling. But he increased the Croat Utashi war Criminal smuggling. "

True enough, but it wouldn't be hard to list some complicity in atrocities by every Christian denomination on Earth, and probably most other religions as well.

How many Protestants were howling about slavery or the Trail of Tears in the early 1800's?
How many Mormons were denouncing the Mountain Meadows massacre?
How many Orthodox (my denomination) make serious complaints about the "ethnic cleansing" policies of Slobodan Milosevic? (Not as many as should, I'm sad to say)

9/22/2011 1:54:46 AM

Quote :

"True enough, but it wouldn't be hard to list some complicity in atrocities by every Christian denomination on Earth, and probably most other religions as well."

Finally the truth!

9/22/2011 2:13:10 AM

Quote :

"There's a widely-held perception that Roman Catholicism does not follow the bible, or does not hold it to be very important."

This would be a benefit. Not reading the rest of the thread as it's likely some bizarre defense of tribalist delusionalism to other cult-members. "I'm just as much of a cultist as you guys, probably more!" Wonderful.

9/22/2011 7:54:41 AM

Actually, McDanger, this thread is about butt sex and genocide, a convergence of topics only possible in a thread about Bronze Age mythology.

9/22/2011 10:57:14 AM

Quote :

"Did the Catholic Church really help Nazi war criminals escape to Argentina and south America?"

I don't follow every conspiracy theory and sensationalist writer. Did some Catholic guy somewhere do that? Probably. Is it messed up? Yes.

The more important thing to realize is that the Church had an adversarial relationship with the Nazis early on and continued to do so. In fact, Pius XI produced the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge "On the Church and the German Reich" in 1937 which can be read in its entirety here http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

Quote :

"8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds. "

Pius XII, the successor of the Pope who wrote the above encyclical, was actually Vatican Secretary of State during that time. When he took over as pope the Nazis had become more powerful and were applying more pressure, so he worked relatively quietly to save Jews by forging documents for them, coming up with gold as ransom for them, and other such things. The Chief Rabbi of Rome at the time (Zolli) has written about the help Pius provided.

9/22/2011 11:10:20 AM

Adversarial but not exactly unwilling to negotiate.

9/22/2011 11:16:07 AM

Quote :

"Adversarial but not exactly unwilling to negotiate."

Well, what were they supposed to do? Fight the Nazis with their non-existant army?

Could they have done more? Probably. Just like the US could have done more in Bosnia or in Darfur. Did they Church do nothing, or even work actively on a large scale to help the Nazis? No.

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 11:37 AM. Reason : .]

9/22/2011 11:26:08 AM

Quote :

"You have no basis for that argument. Where is the arrogance?"

The arrogance is believing without evidence that a being with ultimate power cares about you personally while 6 million children die of starvation this year. The arrogance is believing without evidence that you know what is true, while those with evidence do not. The arrogance is the unwillingness to say "I don't know" when you truly do not.

But back on the OP and "Catholic Mythbusters"...is it true the the current pope was and is involved with actively covering up sexual abuse cases by Catholic Priests instead of surrending these priests to the authorities?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Ratzinger_as_Prefect_of_the_Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith

Quote :

"As Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), the sexual abuse of minors by priests was his responsibility to investigate from 2001, when that charge was given to the CDF by Pope John Paul II.[5] Before given this charge, Cardinal Ratzinger was theoretically privy to all sexual abuse cases within the Church. As Prefect of the CDF, Canon Law directed Bishops to report sexual abuse cases involving priests in their diocese to Cardinal Ratzinger. However, due to the obscurity of Canon Law, even within the Church, it is unknown whether this directive was actually followed. As part of the implementation of the norms enacted and promulgated on April 30, 2001 by Pope John Paul II,[6] on May 18, 2001 Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[7] [8] This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse, which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation. The letter extended the prescription or statute of limitations for these crimes to ten years. However, when the crime is sexual abuse of a minor, the "prescription begins to run from the day on that which the minor completes the eighteenth year of age."[9] "

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 11:50 AM. Reason : .]

9/22/2011 11:43:38 AM

Quote :

"The arrogance is the unwillingness to say "I don't know" when you truly do not."

This.

Though many atheists carry that same arrogance; I've always contended that atheism is just as much a religion as any other.

9/22/2011 12:08:59 PM

Atheism is the lack of belief. Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. Reasonable (and by far most) atheists won't tell you that they're absolutely certain that there is no god. We have no doctrine, no ritual, no scriptures, no dogma, no church. How one could call atheism a religion boggles me.

Further, when religious people try to claim that atheism is a religion, what are they doing really? "Look, you're just as stupid as we are!" hahahha

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 12:18 PM. Reason : .]

9/22/2011 12:16:18 PM

Quote :

"But back on the OP and "Catholic Mythbusters"...is it true the the current pope was and is involved with actively covering up sexual abuse cases by Catholic Priests instead of surrending these priests to the authorities?"

I don't think you realize how vast and complex, a 2000 year old international bureaucracy can be. A lot of things are handled at the local level but a lot of things are escalated to Rome, which has to deal with local issues from all parts of the globe. Unfortunately the Church as a bureaucratic organization can be rather sclerotic like a lot of multinational institutions.

It's highly likely that one of his underlings was negligent, or his position as the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith effectively insulated him from what was unfortunately considered a mostly parochial issue at the time. I find blaming Ratzinger for the handling of sexual abuse cases akin to blaming the Secretary of Defense for military prison abuse cases. The people at the top should have handled it better but the problem was that the system made him "out of touch" with what was going on.

For all we know there was a pile of these abuse reports sitting on a desk somewhere and he never really looked over them, trusting local diocesan officials or his Vatican underlings to handle it. And that was perhaps the greatest mistake--failing to recognize the gravity of the situation at the time. You have to be a real conspiracy theorist to think the Pope actively wants to let priests get away with it engaging in sexual abuse.

9/22/2011 12:22:02 PM

Emo Phillips has this one ya'll:

Quote :

"I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off."

9/22/2011 12:32:24 PM

Quote :

"I don't follow every conspiracy theory and sensationalist writer."

I hate it when those darn sensationalists writers take quotes from Bishop appointed to their position by the Pope and make up these silly stories about how they helped Nazi War criminals escape to Argentina. Stupid historical facts.


Also The Catholic church's stance on Nazi Germany was one of silence. While one negative endorsement could have easily destroyed Hitler's army. The majority of which was Catholic, the silence of the Vatican allowed him to say the destruction of the Jews was the will of God. The German Bishops all supported Hitler and his fascist regime. I can pull some quotes later, and even one from Hitler himself talking about his inspiration to eradicate Jews. Which he derived from the Jesuits.

But I'm sure you'll call this a sensationalist conspiracy since the Catholic church is very good at blatantly denying years of history.

9/22/2011 12:39:34 PM

Arghx, I hear you regarding bureaucracy and whatnot, but c'mon.

Quote :

" Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[7] [8] This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse, which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation"

If the Secretary of Defense sent a letter to every jailor and told them specifically not to reveal any of the actions to anyone outside of the military, how would you feel about that?

9/22/2011 12:43:26 PM

^ I can't comment on Wikipedia's citation of a letter not written in English. Find a trustworthy translation of the letter in question.

Quote :

"Also The Catholic church's stance on Nazi Germany was one of silence. "

Do you know what a papal encyclical is? It's not some internal memo. I quoted and directly linked you to an official English translation of a papal encyclical condemning Nazi ideology in 1937. This encyclical was delivered on March 14, 1937 which was Palm/Passion Sunday. The document is a primary source; it is not a Wikipedia article or something. And yet you say the Church has a policy of silence. I don't know how to respond to that.

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 2:04 PM. Reason : .]

9/22/2011 1:56:31 PM

Pretend for a moment what I'm claiming about the letter is accurate. Comment.

Then read the letter for yourself in English:
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/churchdocs/EpistulaEnglish.htm

Quote :

"-A delict against morals, namely: the delict committed by a cleric against the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue with a minor below the age of 18 years. Only these delicts, which are indicated above with their definition, are reserved to the apostolic tribunal of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. As often as an ordinary or hierarch has at least probable knowledge of a reserved delict, after he has carried out the preliminary investigation he is to indicate it to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which unless it calls the case to itself because of special circumstances of things, after transmitting appropriate norms, orders the ordinary or hierarch to proceed ahead through his own tribunal. The right of appealing against a sentence of the first instance, whether on the part of the party or the party's legal representative, or on the part of the promoter of justice, solely remains valid only to the supreme tribunal of this congregation. It must be noted that the criminal action on delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by a prescription of 10 years.(11) The prescription runs according to the universal and common law;(12) however, in the delict perpetrated with a minor by a cleric, the prescription begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age. In tribunals established by ordinaries or hierarchs, the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests. When the trial in the tribunal is finished in any fashion, all the acts of the case are to be transmitted ex officio as soon as possible to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. All tribunals of the Latin church and the Eastern Catholic churches are bound to observe the canons on delicts and penalties, and also on the penal process of both codes respectively, together with the special norms which are transmitted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for an individual case and which are to be executed entirely. Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret. Through this letter, sent by mandate of the supreme pontiff to all the bishops of the Catholic Church, to superiors general of clerical religious institutes of pontifical right and clerical societies of apostolic life of pontifical right, and to other interested ordinaries and hierarchs, it is hoped not only that more grave delicts will be entirely avoided, but especially that ordinaries and hierarchs have solicitous pastoral care to look after the holiness of the clergy and the faithful even through necessary sanctions. Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, May 18, 2001. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect "

Or Latin directly from the Vatican, and translate it yourself.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010518_epistula_graviora%20delicta_lt.html

9/22/2011 2:11:27 PM

Quote :

"Does anyone with understanding actually believe God smites cities because of homosexuality?"

I think Pat Robertson said that Katrina was God smiting those evil homos in New Orleans.

9/22/2011 2:21:21 PM

You apparently missed the qualifier "with understanding" which means that anyone whose interpretation of the Bible is different from LeonIsPro can be arbitrarily dismissed.

9/22/2011 2:42:38 PM

You missed half the letter. The root problem here, as I have been implying all along, is that sexual abuse claims were not given their extra-ordinary category of procedures within Canon Law. They were given the same treatment as sins involving adults that normally have nothing to do with the civic and criminal courts.

The letter is about jurisdiction within the vast Church bureaucracy and it cites some specific Canon law procedures at the beginning. It outlines specific offenses which are considered grave enough to be escalated to the Vatican. It names a lot of offenses having to do with improper dispensation of Communion or sacrilegious uses of Communion hosts. Since the Catholic tradition believes that a consecrated host is truly the body and blood of Christ, the Vatican takes this very seriously.

The second thing it talks about are sexual sins having to do with clergy--it specifically mentions the Sixth Commandedment (Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery). The Church made sins involving minors are among this group, instead of establishing special procedures to handle them.

Quote :

"Only these delicts, which are indicated above with their definition, are reserved to the apostolic tribunal of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith."

So the sins mentioned here are the types of sins that can be handled directly in Rome. Then it tells the person at the local level to report the situation to Rome and await further instructions as to whether the case will be escalated or not--it's sort of like trying to figure out whether the Supreme Court of the United States will take your case or not. It also sets a 10 year statute of limitations on these grave offenses that can be escalated to Rome.

Quote :

"All tribunals of the Latin church and the Eastern Catholic churches are bound to observe the canons on delicts and penalties, and also on the penal process of both codes respectively, together with the special norms which are transmitted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for an individual case and which are to be executed entirely. Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret."

That is the controversial part that talks about keeping everything secret. Keeping things secret is normal in the Vatican--confessions for example are kept secret. Deliberations for a new pope are kept secret. The problem here is that sins with minors unfortunately followed the same discreet procedure used for an existing category of sexual offenses among adults. Most people would consider a priest committing adultery not a matter for the criminal courts. It's an internal church matter. A sexual sin involving a priest and a minor is considered a matter for criminal courts but Canon law had not adapted quickly enough to reflect this. Some of these canon laws are many hundreds of years old. I suspect few sexual abuse cases were being escalated to the Vatican until the past 20 years or so.

Quote :

"2. Solicitation in the act, on the occasion or under the pretext of confession, to sin against the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue, if it is directed to sin with the confessor himself.(9)"

So if there are accusations of some weird sexual shit going on between a priest and another adult, and the priest abuses the sacrament of confession afterwards, the Church is not going to immediately make the accusation public. It's also not going to have public proceedings about someone desecrating Communion hosts, or breaking the seal of confession. Those are internal matters; what does the county court system care about someone breaking the seal of confession?

I see this letter as another example of a sclerotic bureaucracy that did not realize how big of an issue the sexual abuse claims had become. If it had sunk in among Church officials, they would have established special procedures in Canon law rather than follow the same procedures used for other serious sins. It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up.

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 2:58 PM. Reason : .]

9/22/2011 2:46:01 PM

Quote :

"Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds."

And where do they claim that Hitler divinized these things to an idolatrous level?

The German Bishops lauded Hitler as he rose to power and fully backed his eradication of the Jews. One encyclical before the start of WWII and before the holocaust do not make up for silence throughout the entire period when millions of Jews were being slaughtered. Nor does it make up for the fact that the Catholic churches had the full capacity to help Jews flew/harbor Jews if they so saw fit (as they later did with the Nazi war criminals). But I'm sure that one papal decree really stuck it to Hitler. I'll get some quotes later, but I don;t have access at the moment, and I wouldn't want you to call my sources "Wikipedia Articles."

9/22/2011 2:49:16 PM

Read the rest of the encyclical. It describes tension between the Vatican and the Nazis going back to 1933.

Quote :

"4. If, then, the tree of peace, which we planted on German soil with the purest intention, has not brought forth the fruit, which in the interest of your people, We had fondly hoped, no one in the world who has eyes to see and ears to hear will be able to lay the blame on the Church and on her Head. The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the enemy of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church. They, and they alone with their accomplices, silent or vociferous, are today responsible, should the storm of religious war, instead of the rainbow of peace, blacken the German skies. "

For example, the encyclical is condemning a group of people within the Nazi regime here.

9/22/2011 2:55:13 PM

What about the Ratlines?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

The Inquisition?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

Waging war against distribution of the Bible?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

Popes who greatly excelled Sodom and Gomorrah at sin and vice?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

Endorsing dictatorships in South America so long as they required a national Catholic faith?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

Making nunneries and monastery whorehouses and dens of thieves?

Quote :

"It was a bureaucratic institutional failure, not an intentional cover-up."

Oh, I see it was all just one big bureaucratic institutional failure, not an international cover-up. All those myths are broken the Catholic church just had some of that bureaucratic failure.

9/22/2011 2:55:35 PM

You were asking about the sexual abuse situation and I gave my response. I have not discussed those other matters, and you are assuming that I would apply my analysis to one issue to every other case. I'm not sitting here defending every thing that the Church as an institution run by human beings has done.

9/22/2011 3:00:39 PM

You know that the purpose of that encyclical was not condemning Nazi Germany for killing Jews, it was condemning Nazi Germany for taking power away from the Catholic church and trying to combine the Reich with the Catholic church.

Quote :

"21. In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity. "

I laugh at this violation of human dignity, while Jews are being rounded up to be slaughtered.

Quote :

"No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. What We object to is the voluntary and systematic antagonism raised between national education and religious duty."

Quote :

"6. Different, however, Venerable Brethren, is the purpose of this letter. As you affectionately visited Us in Our illness, so also We turn to you, and through you, the German Catholics, who, like all suffering and afflicted children, are nearer to their Father's heart. At a time when your faith, like gold, is being tested in the fire of tribulation and persecution, when your religious freedom is beset on all sides, when the lack of religious teaching and of normal defense is heavily weighing on you, you have every right to words of truth and spiritual comfort from him whose first predecessor heard these words from the Lord: "I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not: and thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren" (Luke xxii. 32). 7. Take care, Venerable Brethren, that above all, faith in God, the first and irreplaceable foundation of all religion, be preserved in Germany pure and unstained. The believer in God is not he who utters the name in his speech, but he for whom this sacred word stands for a true and worthy concept of the Divinity. Whoever identifies, by pantheistic confusion, God and the universe, by either lowering God to the dimensions of the world, or raising the world to the dimensions of God, is not a believer in God. Whoever follows that so-called pre-Christian Germanic conception of substituting a dark and impersonal destiny for the personal God, denies thereby the Wisdom and Providence of God who "Reacheth from end to end mightily, and ordereth all things sweetly" (Wisdom viii. 1). Neither is he a believer in God. "

Looks like the Pope was condemning the Holy war of Pantheistic teaching coming from the Third Reich, not the hatred of the Jews. In fact Jew is not mentioned once within that encyclical.

9/22/2011 3:16:57 PM

Quote :

"The Inquisition?"

Let's start with the Inquisition. Why exactly were so many people who had faith in Christ, but did not bow their knee to the Catholic church burned at the stake?

9/22/2011 3:27:17 PM

The encyclical protests the Nazi regime trying to subvert religion for their own purposes. It protests them trying to infringe on people's rights to religious expression. It does not praise the regime, it criticizes it. Now, it frames things from within a Catholic point of view because it was about relations between the Church and the Nazi regime. There was certainly less sensitivity to other religions and less emphasis on ecumenism and improving inter-faith relations back in those days.

The encyclical does not specifically cite Jews by name. From our modern perspective 74 years later I will say that it should have, but it didn't. Just because the Church could have done more--everyone could have done more to stop the Holocaust--doesn't mean that the Church did nothing, or that it was indifferent. The other legitimate concern was that going too far, antagonizing the Nazis, would only have increased persecution.

9/22/2011 3:31:30 PM

Quote :

"The encyclical protests the Nazi regime trying to subvert religion for their own purposes. It protests them trying to infringe on people's rights to religious expression."

Religion=/= Catholicism.

In that encyclical they question Catholicism. I don't think it is far to expand it to all religions and then say, well they hated and condemned the Nazi regime for their inhumanity.

9/22/2011 3:57:39 PM

Quote :

"The other legitimate concern was that going too far, antagonizing the Nazis, would only have increased persecution."

“In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” 2 Timothy 3:12 NIV

I guess they didn't want to live a godly life. They were probably just turning a blind eye to the Nazis though because they were too busy raping altar boys.

9/22/2011 7:21:47 PM

I'm sure if they had baited the Nazis and additional atrocities had occurred as a direct result of that, somebody would complain that they were being reckless.

9/22/2011 8:34:00 PM

So your saying that if the head of the Catholic church said it was against church doctrine to massacre innocent Jews; the Catholics in Hitler's army would have killed more Jews? I see.

[Edited on September 22, 2011 at 10:05 PM. Reason : ]

9/22/2011 9:59:01 PM

^^Well, it's a good thing they didn't bait those Nazi's and instead chose to be silent as atrocities were carried out, and not rebuke their bishops as they turned over Jews and spoke in a similar vein to Hitler. Where in scripture does someone hold back from speaking the truth because of fear of what worldly harm may happen to them? You'd think the one true church of Christ would be like Christ and speak out when innocent blood is spilled.

They could of at least said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."

9/22/2011 10:13:15 PM

I don't know why you felt the need to create this thread. The catholic church is no longer relevant. There is better material to feed the trolls.

9/22/2011 10:39:52 PM