TWW has been the best source for info I've needed before, so I figured I'd give it another shot.

I plan on redoing our ENTIRE lawn. By that I mean destroying what is currently there through tilling (not aeration, I mean full over secondary tilling). The ground is hard and compacted enough that professional aeration and fertilization we've done in the past does jack for the yard, plus the weeds are completely out of control. We want to do a full fescue reseeding (there are multiple reasons for this, and I already know it will be a pain to upkeep and extremely weak in summer drought).

I want advice on a variety of landscapers that I can call to come out and give me estimates to
1) retill the entire front, side, and backyard
2) lay seed and compost, even topsoil if they want (not sod)
3) have had good results going into following seasons as long as proper care is taken
4) followup fertilizaton and control are also options

Any personal experiences and suggestions for places you've had good results with are welcome. We cannot do this amount of work ourselves, we do not have enough hours in the day/week to focus on it, so I really do need a professional job done. So what do you guys suggest and where can I expect to receive quality work from? I am willing to pay a little more if it's from a source that is more reliable with a good reputation.

9/23/2011 3:32:15 PM

What is the square footage of the lawn?


Are you trying to have a designer landscape?

9/23/2011 3:44:43 PM

I am in almost this exact situation. We need a serious lawn reboot. The front is like all crabgrass and roots and the back is all weeds and dirt. I'll get the exact square footage but it ain't much, our entire lot is .3 acres if I remember correctly. I'm also not currently looking for designer landscaping, just grass my kids can play in. And I'm not exactly averse to sod if that's the solution that works best for my yard.

[Edited on September 23, 2011 at 4:18 PM. Reason : sod]

9/23/2011 4:18:02 PM

Quote :

"What is the square footage of the lawn?"

Based on the blueprints, about 5680 square feet, so just estimate about 5500-6000 square feet.

Quote :

"Are you trying to have a designer landscape?"

No, definitely not, the only thing I want is for the whole lawn (minus a couple trees and row of bushes that are already there) to be replanted with fescue grass. Beyond the turfgrass, there are no plans for any major alterations.

9/23/2011 4:28:19 PM

I've done this with limited success (trying to get rid of bermuda grass) but so long as you don't have an invasive grass issue it should work in theory. My only advice is get the seed down IMMEDIATELY after tilling (& soil amendment if doing so), otherwise, you're just asking for more weeds.

9/23/2011 4:31:01 PM

Quote :

"I am in almost this exact situation. We need a serious lawn reboot. The front is like all crabgrass and roots and the back is all weeds and dirt. I'll get the exact square footage but it ain't much, our entire lot is .3 acres if I remember correctly. I'm also not currently looking for designer landscaping, just grass my kids can play in. And I'm not exactly averse to sod if that's the solution that works best for my yard."

^^^Just a heads up that this yard (and the rest of the neighborhood) all had sod originally. It lasted maybe 2 years before it was all worthless and reverted to what we are dealing with now. Drought was a factor, and their idea of laying sod involved them all sitting on a fine net of plastic. I think the idea was to fit them together well and avoid erosion underneath, but the end result was the sod was never able to get a really strong roothold in the base dirt. The only lawns that lasted are the ones where the neighbors redid the entire yard with a thorough tilling and reseeding.

[Edited on September 23, 2011 at 4:33 PM. Reason : An extra ^]

9/23/2011 4:33:21 PM

Sounds to me like you'd want to...


1) Create small irrigation ditch(es) for proper water run-off
2) Make sure your terrain is level/even and encased with a stone border so the nutrients in the top soil don't escape and run down the gutter.
3) Till the dirt/add top soil/nutrient rich soil
4) plant seed

9/23/2011 4:44:06 PM

Using at least some drought-resistant perennial landscaping is cheaper than grass in the long run and less work, especially if you have some shade or poor drainage along with impaction. You should also be realistic and expect a community of plants in your grass. the end result is much more agreeable than a half-dead lawn or treating with herbicides constantly, and it makes your yard potentially more useful to small animals instead of a biologically barren monoculture.

That being said, I assume you have a predominantly clay soil. First off, get the soil tested here (http://www.ncagr.gov/agronomi/sthome.htm) and indicate that you want to grow turf. You might need to add something to the soil. You can till early, wait til weeds sprout and hit it with roundup (some use black plastic instead, but this takes longer) and repeat a few times to ehxaust the weed seedbank in the soil, or use a product like Preen which will inhibit their germination. Think about using a beneficial fungi product or buying a seed that is pre-innoculated to give your lawn a powerful tool to beat drought and funguses that kill lawns. If you see tons of grubs when you till, treat with Bt. Other than compost (and a lot of it you will need), there are some other aeration products that can be added to the soil (porous beads, etc) at the "tilling" stage that you might want to consider, depending on how dire the impaction is (particularly if you have a sand and clay mixture). Depending on runoff you may need some french drains. With the exception of the drains, i'd reject any plans that involve fabric or plastic, it's garbage. It WILL eventually work out of the soil and start looking like shit.


Sod and seed have the same issues with starting up, mostly. After you provide perfect conditions, your success will really depend on how faithfully you take care afterwards. It needs constant watering the first 6 months and the first summer. The yard can be getting too dry even in winter. Roots getting burned by people fertilizing too early is another classic folly.


I guess nobody on here is from turfgrass management. I don't have any contacts either but you might want to look on facebook for graduates a few years back.




[Edited on September 24, 2011 at 1:12 AM. Reason : ]

9/24/2011 1:01:44 AM

Quote :

"Using at least some drought-resistant perennial landscaping is cheaper than grass in the long run and less work, especially if you have some shade or poor drainage along with impaction. You should also be realistic and expect a community of plants in your grass. the end result is much more agreeable than a half-dead lawn or treating with herbicides constantly, and it makes your yard potentially more useful to small animals instead of a biologically barren monoculture. "

Our yard is in a very developed neighborhood, so animals aren't really an issue - a squirrel is rare due to the lack of large enough trees. Normally I'd be okay with a mixture, but one of the reasons we want to go full fescue is because one of our dogs is severely allergic to pretty much any plants except tall fescue and other turfgrasses. Since we needed to redo our yard anyway (and our neighbors did manage to create an entire fescue lawn before they moved), we're willing to put our efforts toward that.

Quote :

"That being said, I assume you have a predominantly clay soil. First off, get the soil tested here (http://www.ncagr.gov/agronomi/sthome.htm) and indicate that you want to grow turf. You might need to add something to the soil. You can till early, wait til weeds sprout and hit it with roundup (some use black plastic instead, but this takes longer) and repeat a few times to ehxaust the weed seedbank in the soil, or use a product like Preen which will inhibit their germination. Other than compost (and a lot of it you will need), there are some other aeration products that can be added to the soil (porous beads, etc) at the "tilling" stage that you might want to consider, depending on how dire the impaction is (particularly if you have a sand and clay mixture)."

It does become a predominantly clay/loam mixture once you start digging down maybe 4 inches or so, but isn't very sandy. The base dirt itself isn't bad, and as long as we're dealing with just the surface base soil (1-2 inches below where the the sod level was), a tilling should make the ground fine - although I like the idea of porous beads you mentioned and will ask about that. What is the risk of just tilling and then trying to lay seed and compost without the RoundUp or Preen? (BTW, we used lots of RoundUp for 2 summers, but it wasn't enough to overcome the weed invasion.)

Quote :

"Depending on runoff you may need some french drains."

Unfortunately not an option. Our yard is not in a rural area and the homeowner's association would throw a fit and a fat fine at us. We are actually a corner of a cul-de-sac with a good bit of easement. Two thirds of our yard is lined with curb so I'm not TOO worried about runoff. The back corner is the only place where I would expect erosion to occur, but it's a narrow enough location.

Quote :

"any plans that involve fabric or plastic, it's garbage. It WILL eventually work out of the soil and start looking like shit. "

Yeah, that was the result of their sodding work after a year.

I guess I could check to see where various graduates are working, but I'd prefer if you know of any good local businesses with a decent rep. One year we tried Scotts, but all I got from that was a big waste of money with pretty much no obvious improvement, so I'm going to go by word of mouth before choosing the next one. The only one I know of so far is Atlantic Mulch, but I want to do some comparison shopping.

9/24/2011 1:25:16 AM

You'll probably want to kill anything and everything currently in your yard. I'd think round-up everything, water it, round up again, repeat.

If you just go till up a bunch of wild bermuda, all you're going to do is break it into a million pieces and have more bermuda for next year.

If it's got a bunch of crabgrass in it right now, tilling it wont do anything. Better have the pre-emergent handy next spring

9/24/2011 2:05:30 AM

Wouldn't tilling pretty much rip up the crabgrass roots of the existing plants so that if they want to get a foothold in the yard they'll be starting from scratch like the fescue too? I know their seeds would still be there, but if the crabgrass is in the early stages I would think specific herbicides may hopefully inhibit the crabgrass from gaining ground until the fescue has started to come up.

9/24/2011 2:32:16 AM

crabgrass season is almost over and it will all die out soon, so if you don't get it all it out don't worry, because you'll be applying a healthy amount of pre-emergent in late winter to prevent any seeds from germinating.

9/24/2011 10:38:42 AM

I did this last year with my backyard....total cost: $600...a landscaper wanted $5500 to do it for me.


I rented the biggest, baddest reartine tiller I could get and went to town on my backyard, going 8 inches down. I had a good local compost delivered in bulk and I spread it all around. Then I tilled it in (a 2inch layer was how thick I put it). Then I put down a 4 seed blend with starter fertilizer and pellitized lime, plus straw.

Watered every 3 days and voila...beautiful lawn. But to make it last you need to add COMPOST....Topsoil is NOT the answer....

Here are the before/after:






This is the time to do it...and with the wet weather, the soil shouldnt be too bad.

9/24/2011 1:55:43 PM

holy crap dude that looks great. gg

9/24/2011 2:54:33 PM

holy crap dude that looks great. gg

9/24/2011 11:47:44 PM

Quote :

"Wouldn't tilling pretty much rip up the crabgrass roots of the existing plants so that if they want to get a foothold in the yard they'll be starting from scratch like the fescue too? I know their seeds would still be there, but if the crabgrass is in the early stages I would think specific herbicides may hopefully inhibit the crabgrass from gaining ground until the fescue has started to come up."

Crabgrass won't be a problem this late. It's too late for them to sprout, so if you rip up the plants, they're done for the season.

I just didn't want you thinking, like many do, that if you chop up the weeds/grass you have and plant over it, you'll have a perfect lawn for years to come. You'll still have to do a bit of maintenance to ensure it doesn't come back or kill what does come back.

While a healthy lawn will work wonders to deter crabgrass from starting next season, it still won't prevent it all. If you had crabgrass before the tilling, you'll likely have it next summer as well. A thick lawn certainly helps your chances. Just saying, you'll still need to put down some pre-emergent next spring to kill any seedlings from left-behind seeds.

Also, I'm assuming that if you till up a bunch of grasses like bermuda or centipede, that you'll actually have a lot of bermuda/centipede sprouting next spring from all of the chopped up pieces. If you have any of that in the lawn right now, I'd kill it just to be safe. You don't want that in your new fescue come spring time

9/25/2011 1:01:12 AM

agreed. I don't know much about centipede, but bermuda is highly invasive, and difficult to kill. If you have any now, you need to go scorched earth on your yard.

as i've described in previous threads, I've sort of given up on fighting my bermuda infestation, and now allowing it to take over completely over time.

I overseed fescue in the fall and bermuda in late spring. The cost/upkeep of fescue in this climate is just not worth the cost.

9/25/2011 8:23:55 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions. We do have a bit of bermuda, but the crabgrass is really the big problem in the front yard right now with all the runners they've sent out. There's a variety of plants I want to just kill and I did intend to put down pre-emergent and herbicides in the spring, but what I really need is suggestions on reputable landscapers.

While I agree that panthersny's yard is beautiful and the kind of lawn I would like to have, I don't know if we have the time or energy for everything he did. I know it would cost us a lot less to do it ourselves but I want to compare my alternatives because we'd be willing to put down the cash for it.

I know there's lots of landscapers in the Triangle, but want reviewers from here, since some shady names (like A Cutting Edge whose name used to be Carolina Landscape and Turf but changed their name after WRAL did an expose on them) manage to get some good reviews put up on their behalf.

9/25/2011 2:46:17 PM

I have the same problem! My front lawn is centipede and it looks good. But the back lawn is part barren dirt, part weeds, and part shit grass (not sure what type but it looks shitty) There are a few trees, so I'd like to do a natural area with shrubs/ground cover like Green Jay suggested. I hate watering so minimizing the amount of grass would be great.

Where can you rent a big ass tiller? I live in Charleston.

PS ... TheBullDoza was suggesting that you can burn your old grass with some firethrowing propane wand. Anyone heard of this? Is it a good idea?

9/25/2011 3:49:15 PM

^ I've heard of people doing it. I'm assuming you'd do it on dormant grass, but be aware that dormant grass is practically 'dead'...you don't want a runaway lawn fire.

If you want any grass in the back yard, pull some of the centipede runners from your front yard...about 8 inches long or so. Take a garden hand spade, bury 4" of the runner in the back yard, and step on the part you just buried to get good soil/grass contact. Next season it'll start a new plant. It will take a while, but eventually the centipede will get established there and take over. If you have a lot of shade, this might not be an option, however.

[Edited on September 25, 2011 at 4:01 PM. Reason : ]

9/25/2011 4:00:29 PM

^ my back yard is pretty sunny, except for under the trees which I'm hoping to turn into a natural area anyway. I've actually tried replanting the runners but with no success. I just pulled up a lot from the front yard so maybe I'll try again.

9/25/2011 6:38:47 PM