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 Message Boards » » Is Sweden the Democratic ideal? Page [1]  
EuroTitToss
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Those pussies haven't fought a war for centuries, 80% of the population votes, higher education is free, and there is insufficient hatred for the gays (they have gender-neutral marriage).

Isn't that the type of nation the DNC craves?

9/26/2011 5:35:02 PM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"Isn't that the type of nation the DNC craves?"


Nope.

9/26/2011 5:50:47 PM

SkiSalomon
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Having lived there for a number of years, it is far from the ideal society that they market to the rest of the world. It is a pretty fun place though.

9/26/2011 11:59:01 PM

ActionPants
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It's worth a try

9/27/2011 12:45:03 AM

0EPII1
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^^ is it at least more "ideal" than the US? more than the UK? Canada? New Zealand?

there is no ideal society, it is an oxymoron. if it is a society, it doesn't make sense to say ideal, as everybody has a different ideal (even within one family, let alone a country). but overall comparisons can be made.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 8:53 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 8:53:19 AM

EuroTitToss
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This shit hasn't been locked yet?

9/27/2011 9:31:27 AM

theDuke866
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(I'm pretty much leaving it open because I'm interested in what SkiSalomon has to say.

9/27/2011 9:44:41 AM

HOOPS MALONE
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I liked Ireland better because the girls weren't as stuck up, but now Ireland sucks worse than here.

9/27/2011 12:55:26 PM

pryderi
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Quote :
"Those pussies haven't fought a war for centuries, 80% of the population votes, higher education is free, and there is insufficient hatred for the gays (they have gender-neutral marriage).

Isn't that the type of nation the DNC craves?"


Yes

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 3:44 PM. Reason : quote]

9/27/2011 3:43:54 PM

LoneSnark
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"Those pussies haven't fought a war for centuries...Isn't that the type of nation the DNC craves?"

9/27/2011 4:23:39 PM

ActionPants
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I don't think Obama is really the ideal candidate for most actual progressives

9/27/2011 4:37:48 PM

EuroTitToss
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Black Bush.

9/27/2011 4:37:50 PM

Shaggy
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when you have a single culture democracy is pretty easy

9/27/2011 4:57:01 PM

pryderi
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^there's a lot of Muslim immigrants in Sweden. I don't htink you can call it a "single culture" democracy.

9/27/2011 5:38:12 PM

HOOPS MALONE
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That's a relatively recent phenomenon. It's hard to really judge if it matters right now.

9/27/2011 5:47:14 PM

TULIPlovr
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"^there's a lot of Muslim immigrants in Sweden. I don't htink you can call it a "single culture" democracy."


It still is relatively single-culture. More than 90% of the population is native to Scandinavia.

The multi-cultural parts, such as the city of Malmo, are Sweden's biggest problems. Jews cannot walk safely through the streets with yarmulkes. When Israel played Sweden in soccer, Muslim rioters attacked police and in the end nobody was allowed into the stadium to watch the game. Rape in the city has tripled over the past 20 years.

Yet, because of their blind allegiance to multiculturalism in all forms, Sweden has no substantive response to the madness. The Swedish parts of Sweden are just fine. But they will disappear, because they are not even committed to keeping themselves alive or in charge of their own country.

Malmo's rape statistics are 6 times higher than Copenhagen's, though they are next-door neighbors.

Move over to Norway, and you have a period of 5 years in Oslo without a single reported case of a rape suspect identified as appearing native. All 83 rapes were committed by suspects identified as non-Western.

Put it a different way - if they had not taken in hostile 3rd world immigrants, there would have been no reported rapes in Oslo, a city of 1.5 million, in 5 years.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:43 PM. Reason : a]

9/27/2011 9:30:32 PM

The Coz
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^But since they are taking in hostile 3rd world immigrants, they rapin' e'rybody out hur!

9/27/2011 9:55:02 PM

lewisje
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Sadly racism is on the rise in Europe

9/28/2011 4:12:04 AM

Pikey
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Maybe that dude that shot up the island was on to something.

9/28/2011 6:46:38 AM

RedGuard
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Quote :
"there's a lot of Muslim immigrants in Sweden. I don't htink you can call it a "single culture" democracy."


As noted, 90% of the nation is "native", but more importantly, Swedish national identity is still based on the Scandinavian culture of the majority. I think having an overwhelmingly dominant, single culture in a nation can help a lot toward stability because at very least, it removes that race and cultural dimension from political debate.

I think too though that the other big advantage Sweden has is that their country is much smaller and therefore easier to govern. As nations get larger, it becomes much more of a challenge to implement policy.

9/28/2011 11:57:58 AM

HUR
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"Sadly racism is on the rise in Europe"


What do you expect when you have non-white immigrants coming from 3rd world countries acting like barbarians when let into a country nice enough to allow them to migrate to their land.

9/30/2011 8:38:53 AM

SkiSalomon
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"Those pussies haven't fought a war for centuries"


It is highly debatable as to whether they have fought in wars over the past few centuries and there is no question that they have taken sides and provided material support in a number of conflicts. The civil war in Finland is a big example with the Swedish government providing volunteer troops (mostly officers) to fight on the side of the Finnish Whites and providing naval escorts for german supply ships providing weapons to the Whites.

In WWII, they supplied tons of iron ore to Nazi Germany and acted as Hitler's taxi service transporting soldiers and supplies from norway to finland.

More recently, Sweden has been participating in the Libya campaign and has been contributing combat troops to ISAf in Afghanistan.

Homosexuality and gay marriage are certainly more accepted and commonplace in Sweden than most other countries and this is great. However, there are no shortage of other groups that Swedes discriminate against. For a country that touts its humanitarian involvement around the world and the disproportionate number of refugees they take in, they sure treat their immigrants like shit.

Quote :
"The multi-cultural parts, such as the city of Malmo, are Sweden's biggest problems....
Yet, because of their blind allegiance to multiculturalism in all forms, Sweden has no substantive response to the madness. The Swedish parts of Sweden are just fine. "


Rosengard in Malmo and Rinkeby in Stockholm are particularly notorious immigrant 'ghettos' and the government simply has no solution other than the harden defenses around the situation that they effectively created. I would argue that the Swedish policies and public attitudes toward the resettlement of immigrants is largely to blame. Swedish policies of housing immigrants in such a way that they are separated from native swedes and being treated like second class citizens exacerbates any problems that would have arised on their own. Even here in the US we have made similar mistakes with regard to low income housing and HUD has been quickly moving away from this model.

That said, these problems have no arisen from any blind allegiance to multiculturalism, quite the opposite. If you are a non-ethnic swede in Sweden, you will ALWAYS play second fiddle to an ethnic Swede. This even applies to people who were born in Sweden from foreign parents or in many cases, if a single parent is not a native of sweden (and the person looks different). This is also not just limited to Malmo, Stockholm, Goteborg; from my experience, it is pretty widespread throughout the country.

Quote :
"As noted, 90% of the nation is "native", but more importantly, Swedish national identity is still based on the Scandinavian culture of the majority. I think having an overwhelmingly dominant, single culture in a nation can help a lot toward stability because at very least, it removes that race and cultural dimension from political debate."


This. However, I think that the national identity and overwhelmingly dominant native culture is partially contributing to the problems that they are facing now and will continue to face.


***** With all that said, Sweden is a nice place to live (if you're OK with the cold and darkness in winter). The girls aren't really stuck up like a previous poster mentioned, you just have to understand the swedish culture and mentality (the game is played a bit different there).

9/30/2011 11:27:16 AM

HOOPS MALONE
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My Swedish experience was far too short to really form any opinions other than "this place looks nice".

If I was moving to a non-English speaking nation with long dark periods, however, I'd probably go for Iceland first. Less urban, more my style.

9/30/2011 2:52:18 PM

Chance
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"you just have to understand the swedish culture and mentality (the game is played a bit different there)"


Tell us more

9/30/2011 3:00:22 PM

DeltaBeta
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We can't land the entire bikini team without this knowledge.

9/30/2011 4:24:12 PM

TULIPlovr
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"Rosengard in Malmo and Rinkeby in Stockholm are particularly notorious immigrant 'ghettos' and the government simply has no solution other than the harden defenses around the situation that they effectively created. I would argue that the Swedish policies and public attitudes toward the resettlement of immigrants is largely to blame. Swedish policies of housing immigrants in such a way that they are separated from native swedes and being treated like second class citizens exacerbates any problems that would have arised on their own. Even here in the US we have made similar mistakes with regard to low income housing and HUD has been quickly moving away from this model.

That said, these problems have no arisen from any blind allegiance to multiculturalism, quite the opposite. If you are a non-ethnic swede in Sweden, you will ALWAYS play second fiddle to an ethnic Swede. This even applies to people who were born in Sweden from foreign parents or in many cases, if a single parent is not a native of sweden (and the person looks different). This is also not just limited to Malmo, Stockholm, Goteborg; from my experience, it is pretty widespread throughout the country."


Their national government puts out ads about safe sex with a blonde swedish girl screwing an African immigrant, set to Muslim music in the background (there's a hilarious and slightly NSFW clip of it that has recently been taken down by youtube - I'll keep looking for it). They have public pre-schools that refuse to address 3 year-olds as he, she, her, or him because they don't want to force a sexual or gender identity on them. Everyone is simply called "friend."

Something tells me that country's xenophobia is not the cause of the Muslim and African monopoly on violent and sexual crimes. And who says it's the Swedes that started the separation of cultures? The people they brought in don't WANT to be be Swedish or integrate. They want free stuff and ignorant people to rob, beat, rape, and eventually subdue under a government that is more their style.

When they come in and screw things up, I have no doubt that a few rational souls will push back. Unfortuantely, they are few, and the dominant paradigm will keep the downward slope steep.

9/30/2011 5:27:59 PM

HOOPS MALONE
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Quote :
"Their national government puts out ads about safe sex with a blonde swedish girl screwing an African immigrant, set to Muslim music in the background (there's a hilarious and slightly NSFW clip of it that has recently been taken down by youtube - I'll keep looking for it). They have public pre-schools that refuse to address 3 year-olds as he, she, her, or him because they don't want to force a sexual or gender identity on them. Everyone is simply called "friend.""


What does any of this evidence have to do with what you said in what followed? Oh, I get it, everything is a liberal slippery slope. Today gender ambiguity, tomorrow we're all living in an Islamic Republic. Thanks, Mark Steyn.

10/1/2011 3:34:22 PM

TULIPlovr
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"What does any of this evidence have to do with what you said in what followed? Oh, I get it, everything is a liberal slippery slope. Today gender ambiguity, tomorrow we're all living in an Islamic Republic. Thanks, Mark Steyn."


What relevance does it have? Maybe that would be found in the first sentence of the paragraph that directly followed it, namely that it is evidence that the country's xenophobia is not the source of the African and Arab crime problem.

Although you misunderstood it, I'll completely stand behind what you took it to mean. A worldview that embraces multiculturalism without any asterisks, rejects that gender has meaning, etc. simply does not have the philosophical or religious wherewithal to defend itself.

When something battles against nothing, something will win. Nature abhors a vacuum, and European liberalism is a vacuum. Islam is something and actually has a substance to it (as abhorrent as that substance is). Sweden may not become an Islamic Republic, but it will cease to be what it is. I happen to think that an Islamic Republic is simply one of the more likely options, long-run.

10/1/2011 4:54:20 PM

Dentaldamn
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I would like a detailed explanation of how European liberalism is a vacuum.

10/1/2011 7:41:01 PM

lewisje
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it doesn't trust GOD as the source of all law so it SUCKS

10/2/2011 11:11:32 AM

TULIPlovr
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"I would like a detailed explanation of how European liberalism is a vacuum."


By vacuum, I essentially mean something that begs to be replaced, and is not capable of maintaining itself.

European liberalism refuses to acknowledge fundamental differences in people groups. It is grown-up hippydom. Can't we all just get along? Every culture has something of value to contribute. Crime and violence are outcomes of prolonged oppression. If we respect everyone's dignity, then everyone will respect ours. We are citizens of the world more than we are citizens of our own countries. The highest virtues are tolerance and openness. Who are we to judge others? There is no one true truth. Diversity is a strength. If we don't invite everyone in the world to live with us, we are unenlightened relics of previous, barbarous centuries. Only by embracing everyone can true progress be made. yada yada yada.

That is a worldview that not only cannot defend itself; it is a worldview that prohibits its own defense. So, they open themselves up to worlds of people who are nothing like them. When those people act just as badly in Europe as they did in their home countries, the worldview says the problem must be that we still haven't embraced and loved them enough. They just need more opportunity. They just need more experience with our freedoms to come to love them. With a little more love, and a little more tolerance, they will come around, because all people are basically the same.

But people and cultures are not the same. And more love and tolerance will not reform them, especially not when the blessings and prosperity of a free society are given to them without any pre-conditions. But, pre-conditions or terms for being in the free world would be yet more oppression on these poor people. So we must not do that.

This is why it's a vacuum. If you have 90% of people thinking this way, and 10% of the population actually believes something substantive, the 10% will win over time. In fact, the worse they act the better it is for them. When the 10% act like nutjobs, or commits all the crime, or calls for overthrow of their government, the other 90% feel both guilty and sorry for them. The fact that they are acting out means the 90% did something wrong, so more tolerance and more benefits for the 10% must be the solution to the problems.

That's why it's a vacuum. Any group that doesn't buy it's presuppositions will automatically win any battle with it. Then add in that European liberals don't like having babies, and the demographic war is already over. It just needs to play out. European liberalism will change, or it will die.

10/3/2011 4:28:17 PM

HUR
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"Something tells me that country's xenophobia is not the cause of the Muslim and African monopoly on violent and sexual crimes. And who says it's the Swedes that started the separation of cultures? The people they brought in don't WANT to be be Swedish or integrate. They want free stuff and ignorant people to rob, beat, rape, and eventually subdue under a government that is more their style.

When they come in and screw things up, I have no doubt that a few rational souls will push back. Unfortuantely, they are few, and the dominant paradigm will keep the downward slope steep.
"


Truth, sounds like some people in our country....

10/3/2011 5:48:29 PM

lewisje
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^^
Es ist Zeit für Rache! Wir müssen die Muslim ausrotten!


[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 7:26 PM. Reason : or in Swedish: Det är dags för hämnd! Vi måste utrota den muslimska!

10/3/2011 7:24:48 PM

TULIPlovr
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^As I said,

Quote :
"If we don't invite everyone in the world to live with us, we are unenlightened relics of previous, barbarous centuries."


Thank you for proving my point.

10/3/2011 7:39:43 PM

0EPII1
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WTF is wrong with Sweden???

http://www.dailywire.com/news/16409/woman-70-says-migrants-defecate-streets-set-cars-joseph-curl

Woman, 70, Says Migrants Defecate In Streets, Set Cars on Fire. Cops Charge Her With Hate Crime.

Quote :
"Authorities in Sweden are prosecuting a 70-year-old woman for a hate crime.

Her alleged crime? She wrote on Facebook that she saw migrants defecating in the streets and setting fire to cars."

Quote :
"After a lengthy probe, prosecutors in Sweden decided that the post violated the nation’s law on incitement to racial hatred, FriaTider wrote. If the pensioner is found guilty, she faces four years in prison. The woman acknowledges that she posted the comments but says she did not commit a crime."

Quote :
"Things have gone from bad to worse in Sweden. Just last month, two migrants were given lenient sentences for horrific crimes they committed, sent to jail for less than four years for nearly beating a young man death before violently raping his female friend."




No wonder people are starting to turn to the right in many European countries.

A Swedish person in the comments:

Quote :
"False. The maximum sentence for crimes against our hate speech laws is 2 years in prison while cases like this would be subject to a small fine. Many of these charges are however dropped on account of free speech being protected by our constitution since 1766.

You are however correct on the short sentences. Immigrants, people committing crimes before the age of 18 and criminals guilty of multiple crimes are all subject to reduced sentences, roughly translated as "sentence rebate". Not long ago we had three immigrants live streaming the rape of a woman through Facebook, the sentences spanned between 6 months up to 2 years and 4 months (and will probably be reduced)."




Thanks Obama Merkel

They are willfully committing suicide.

RIP Sweden

[Edited on May 15, 2017 at 6:38 AM. Reason : ]

5/15/2017 6:35:50 AM

tulsigabbard
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Nice anecdotes. You're criticizing Sweden from a country with the most flawed justice system where people are systematically sent to torturous prisons for petty drug crimes. A prisoner in Sweden still probably has a better quality of life than a typical 70 year old in the USA.

5/15/2017 9:54:35 AM

JCE2011
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Why is OEP quoting a Ben Shapiro website and supporting a conservative position? Did I miss something?

^ Ok so you don't agree with drug laws... what does that have to do with Sweden's cultural/demographic suicide resulting from unchecked authoritarian leftism?

[Edited on May 15, 2017 at 10:30 AM. Reason : karl marx]

5/15/2017 10:30:11 AM

tulsigabbard
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because you are trying to characterize an entire country's justice sytem ("what is wrong with sweden") by one rare case. Also, hate crime laws are not authoritarian. Freedom to broadcast hatred against minority groups is not "freedom" and poses a threat to the safety of said minorities. Freedom doesn't mean you get to put others in danger. Its a really old part of the right's playbook to demonize everything they don't agree with and repeat the same talking points to paint a cherry-picked picture of how things they don't agree with will lead to disaster

Just watch 5 minutes of fox news its anecdote after anecdote

"Sweden is in chaos because muslim refugees are bad"
"Venezuela is in chaos because socialism is bad"
"Chicago is in chaos because gun control is bad"
"Berkeley is in chaos because liberals are bad"
"This wal-mart had a brawl because we need more police to control black people"

[Edited on May 15, 2017 at 6:08 PM. Reason : k]

5/15/2017 5:50:12 PM

JCE2011
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Quote :
"because you are trying to characterize an entire country's justice sytem ("what is wrong with sweden") by one rare case. "


I don't think the right wing narrative cares about the Swedish justice system specifically. When they say "whats wrong with Sweden"... it is much larger than any specific justice system issues. The problem in Sweden is the inevitable result of regressive leftism run rampant... reality-denying, self-destructive altruism enforced by authoritarians resulting in "no-go" zones, record sexual assault numbers, and demographic suicide.

Quote :
" Also, hate crime laws are not authoritarian. Freedom to broadcast hatred against minority groups is not "freedom" and poses a threat to the safety of said minorities."


I never said hate crime laws were authoritarian.

"Hate speech" absolutely is authoritarian though.

5/15/2017 6:38:14 PM

afripino
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I think people forget that the ideals in these small countries can't scale for a country as massive as the US. Kind of like the way you run your house doesn't work for all of the houses in the neighborhood. The US is some whole other shit brah. Now, cherry-picking good qualities...that's a better conversation.

5/16/2017 9:57:37 AM

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