Assuming some wolfwebbers own or work for independent repair shops:

1) Which, if any, scan tools do you have access to?
2) Are you limited to certain manufacturers through tool coverage?
3) Do you maintain, diagnose, repair vehicles requiring coded parts?
4) How many times a year do you attend training/informational seminars?
5) Do you feel secure in your ability to keep up to date?
6) Would you be open to remote diagnosis and/or coding?
7) How much would you consider fair for per use vehicle codings?

I really appreciate any feedback you all have to lend.....

10/20/2011 11:31:42 PM

I'll go ahead and speak for the group of Gayragers:


the answer to your proposition is [NO]

10/21/2011 7:03:50 AM

Yeah, I really appreciate that as well. Now I know that atleast one of you doesn't give a shit about where the industry is headed. Do some research on theft related part availability and get back to me.

10/21/2011 9:41:38 AM

you read me like a book.


what are you trying to do here? Sell a product? pushing your own entrepreneurial experiment? Starting out with a survey and no explaination of what the fuck you are trying to do will receive my original response.

10/21/2011 10:02:12 AM

^^yea we know exactly where its going. you should send a newsletter out

[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 10:12 AM. Reason : ;k;lm]

10/21/2011 10:02:20 AM

^, ^^ Good points. My goal is simply to get some preliminary information for my own interpretation. I do work with a startup that has developed a way to use SAE J-2534 remotely, and currently service shops working with SCN Coding on Mercedes-Benz. However, I have no intention to market a product using my old college forum.

Given that this board involves all things automotive, I thought there would be some initiative to consider issues confronting independent shops in the near future. Perhaps my approach was not suitable for this forum and its users. Although I will say, past experience tells us that independents in general will not proactively research or even talk about better solutions. Instead they wait to be backed into a corner by manufacturers, then whine about "fair practice".

10/21/2011 11:09:11 AM

if you already have experience with independent shops, why are you asking a group of college grad armchair mechanics? Are you hoping for the 2-3 users who work at some local garage to provide you with a gold mine of informative data to send your startup company straight to the top?


I understand that people have to start somewhere, but this aint the place for what you're asking. That and your salesman approach to addressing our responses really turns me off

10/21/2011 11:36:24 AM

SCN coding and its domestic equivalents is everything that is wrong with the industry. It's the reason that no vehicle on the road today will still be around in 20 years. I can only wish for any company that uses this bullshit to go out of business, and any of the pariah little companies that try to profit by bypassing it will be taken down with them.

10/21/2011 11:52:55 AM

^^I personally have no first hand experience with what the average shop goes through day to day, which is why I proposed the above questions. What I'm posting isn't for the company, it's for me, and my understanding of how real world "independents" deal with what is facing them. The shops I speak with daily only represent Mercedes or MAYBE European. I want whatever insight I can get, I guess I just went for the homerun first.

As far as the nature of my responses, I'm just very aware of the harsh nature of tww. I tread lightly 'round these parts, or atleast try to.

^ I would have to agree that SCN coding/equivalent does present many issues for shops. Manufacturers put this in place for what they say is "Theft Security". Just amounts to them having more control over who purchases those parts, and in the case of BMW keys/Mercedes 722.9 Transmissions; who can service the vehicles. To say that these vehicles won't be on the road in 20 years is not allowing for any evolution of the aftermarket, and ways to use current technology to quickly and efficiently diagnose/code vehicles. Optimism.

[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 12:01 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 12:07 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2011 11:55:05 AM

welcome to the gay ragers.

many of them are dicks that don't care to help. good luck.

10/21/2011 11:58:28 AM

^

10/21/2011 12:04:14 PM

I realize this thread is about code readers. Hear me out, maybe I can offer some insight.

I am in outside sales, which is currently salary+commission, but will move into straight commission starting at the beginning of July 2010. I have been in this position since July 2009. I have competition from several direct manufacturing sales reps, large distributors, and local distributors. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each:

Direct Advantages: Immediate knowledge of new technology, no middle man mark up, one shipping bill (paid by manufacturer or buyer of goods), access to larger range of non-commodity items, control inventory, have access to many distributors that can effectively sell their goods which increases market share, and set prices of commodity they manufacture.

Direct disadvantages: Typically have 1-3 sales reps per region (i.e. southeast, mid-atlantic, northeast, etc.) limiting the number of accounts they can successfully manage/cold-call, lack physical customer service or physical technical service available to or affordable for smaller users or altogether, are sometimes not trustworthy because they will go in behind their distributors that sell their commodity to one account in large quantities (i.e. they missed a big account, and have found out about it through a distributor selling their particular product) which leads to the distributor not selling their product anymore, have too many distributors selling the product ultimately driving the set price down through deviations, possibly rely on distributors to actually sell the product, and competition from other direct sources.

Large distributor advantages: have access to other commodities that go hand in hand with other manufacturers (poor example- grocery stores sell milk as well as cereal), get direct pricing, many locations regionally or nationally easing the shipping burden of buyers with multiple locations, personal service either customer or technical, many sales reps that are able to cover a broader territory, access to multiple manufacturers of the same commodity allowing to keep prices in check, service programs that smaller companies can't offer and direct providers can't match in price or value, and experts of many many commodities as opposed to one or a few.

Large distributor disadvantages: smaller local distributors creating price wars (think Michael Scott Paper Co vs Dunder-Mifflin), direct mfg's going in behind and stealing business, limited access to all of the mfg's (you won't find Harris Teeter name brands in Food Lion and visa versa), can't truly set prices because it's based on both supply and demand, territory management, and tough growth prospects in slower economies (this is true for direct as well really)

Local distributor advantages: Typically a good ol' boy setting where the seller and the buyer know each other for years (this does happen at all levels, but mostly at the local level), local folks are right down the street and can be used in emergencies, if the local guy buys at high enough volumes then there is no shipping charge to the end user, and access to both direct mfg's and large distributors.

Local distributor disadvantages: easily beaten in price, array of commodities, array of technology, lack of trained staff, low cash flow, etc etc etc.

This is what I have noticed in my six months, I am sure there are plenty more that need mentioning. The way I am setting myself apart as a sales person is this: I go after the big accounts right now while I am new. The big accounts, if I land them, will take care of me while I am new and building a customer base. The money made off of those allows me to focus free time on smaller accounts that get me higher margins. I build up big accounts, I would like to have 5-10 of these, then get 20-30 medium accounts. If I lose 1 or 2 big accounts, the 20-30 medium accounts keep me afloat while I go after new big accounts. I don't really waste time on small accounts simply because they basically pay for breakfast or something really small.

I will say this, if you can't get a big account in the first 6-8 months (assuming you have cash flow that you can ride this long) you could be in a world of trouble. If you can get one, it will really make going after the others a lot more enjoyable and less stressful. It's simply just very exhausting wasting any time on anything other than big accounts in the very beginning. You work just as hard on the medium sized accounts and see 1/3 to 1/36 of the money in my situation.

If you have any other questions, you can PM me. I hope this helps in the slightest!

10/21/2011 12:40:32 PM

Quote :

"welcome to the gay ragers. many of them are dicks that don't care to help. good luck. "

still, let's let this thread play out and ahve some actual feedback from the appropriate parties, if possible.

10/21/2011 1:00:27 PM

^^Code readers are a bandaid for the aftermarket. Shops now spend thousands of dollars every few years to keep "updated" tools to communicate with vehicles.

What we're doing is allowing experts to remotely view and interact with in-bay vehicles using manufacture software from a central location. It's not about providing scan tools or "code readers" to shops with no efficient way to cover all lines and makes. It's about providing a way for shops to quickly get what they need to turn around cars and make money with no forseeable need to invest in another purpose built tool. The computer age has allowed for real time communication between technicians, ex. forums, but has yet to provide a way to address issues as they occur off the line without the right people coming across every problem and posting it to a forum.

Aftermarket scan tools are built to support specific vehicle lines thoroughly, or a broad scope of vehicle lines with simple issues. The incorporation of real time data transfer to experts would provide shop owners with quick diagnosis, as well as an efficient means to maintain vehicles that according to their manufacturer must use proprietary OEM software/hardware (~$20,000 for MB) to complete various jobs. We currently support all manufacturers that have fully incorporated J-2534 Pass-Thru in their software *which is to say, not ONLY for standardized emissions reprogramming*, and Mercedes. Right To Repair legislation, given enough support is present, will most likely put J-2534 in all lines before too much longer.

Our system uses a simple J-2534 cable (~$250) and a laptop with decent internet connectivity. One icon on the desktop gives access to everything needed.

^Thanks man.

[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 1:11 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2011 1:10:53 PM

lol, ok that was funny

10/21/2011 1:12:32 PM

Quote :

"college grad armchair mechanics?"

i loled at this

10/21/2011 1:14:41 PM

Quote :

"The incorporation of real time data transfer to experts would provide shop owners with quick diagnosis"

I can't wait to talk to "John" every time I need an airbag code reset.

You are the fungus that grows on beetles that cling to the metaphorical shit that is Daimler/VAG.



[Edited on October 21, 2011 at 3:04 PM. Reason : .]

10/21/2011 2:59:12 PM

^ I don't know why you would assume outsourcing would become the norm. We have a wealth of Master Automotive Technicians available to us in the US. ex: http://www.identifix.com

If attempting to develop new and useful technology to assist a suffering industry (already suffering, nothing to do with us) is your idea of "selling out", you're an idiot. The reason TRP parts became an issue in the first place is that there is no secure and efficient means to transmit "proprietary" information to the independent shops. Perhaps you could look at the situation in a less conspiracy driven light.

10/21/2011 3:16:26 PM

Proprietary information is the problem. Government-regulated standardization is the answer.

10/21/2011 3:21:24 PM

I agree about the government-regulated standardization, that's already happened once for emissions, and there is great movement with Right To Repair on both state and federal levels now. If J-2534 was fully adopted in all manufacture software, the aftermarket could provide itself with an effective means to maintain even the most complex and advanced vehicles without relying on software/hardware combos for crazy priced-out costs from OEM.

Proprietary information and therefore "coded" parts are necessary due to the new and innovative functions coming out in vehicles. If you want advanced cars, you want coding. But this practice is being abused by manufacturers who see an opportunity to control parts flow under the guise of security.

10/21/2011 3:36:52 PM

Quote :

"If you want advanced cars,"

NOPE.

10/21/2011 4:27:34 PM

well...there ya go. Just stick to repairing cars that are pre-OBDII, and you'll be retired/out of business before you know it. Keeping up with the market doesn't mean you're abiding by manufacturer rules. Make things better as best you can, that's where the best ideas come from.

10/21/2011 4:30:54 PM

^the outrageous price of tools is whats killing technicians

in other news..

Quote :

" I don't know why you would assume outsourcing would become the norm. We have a wealth of Master Automotive Technicians available to us in the US. ex: http://www.identifix.com If attempting to develop new and useful technology to assist a suffering industry (already suffering, nothing to do with us) is your idea of "selling out", you're an idiot. The reason TRP parts became an issue in the first place is that there is no secure and efficient means to transmit "proprietary" information to the independent shops. Perhaps you could look at the situation in a less conspiracy driven light. "

are you hiring

10/21/2011 5:05:49 PM

I work with a small shop that is basically a side business. zxappeal does some work with us. We mostly do performance-oriented work; I am the guy who does the most with scantools, OBD related issues, and data analysis.

1) Which, if any, scan tools do you have access to?

Actron CP9180, the same universal scan tool that they use at Autozone/Advance. It reads all the universal powertrain codes (the ones that start with p0, like p0420 is universal catalyst efficiency code). Then we have manufacturer or application specific performance datalogging software and reflashing tools. This mostly for Japanese vehicles because they have the widest amount of open source or low cost software available. Most other platforms require an expensive shop license which is thousands of dollars and can't be justified with low volumes.

With a universal scantool I can log all the main J1979 PIDs and check readiness monitors. That's usually enough to get the job done. The 5 hz datalogging speed through the universal protocol is annoying but I can get by with it. How often do I really need to view obscure PIDs like EGR rates?

2) Are you limited to certain manufacturers through tool coverage?

The big issues are

1) Drivetrain and driving dynamics related modules--traction, stability control, ABS, etc, and

2) anything related to evaporative emissions where you would need to command specific actuators to test certain things, or use a smoke machine to find a leak.

If we run into something we don't normally see, a lot of times some Googling will get the job done.

3) Do you maintain, diagnose, repair vehicles requiring coded parts?

I've never been in a situation where I could not install a part because of an SCN coding issue. I don't work on many recent (last 5 years) German cars.

4) How many times a year do you attend training/informational seminars?

Never. Only dealership techs do this, or performance shops that go take performance tuning seminars. You just have to keep on your own by learning new stuff from service manuals and other various publications.

5) Do you feel secure in your ability to keep up to date?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "keeping up to date" -- hardware? knowledge of vehicle systems? I personally do feel "secure", because I make an effort to understand what's going on. Here's the thing--most cars are still going to throw a basic o2 sensor code or something. If something crazy goes on somebody on the internet has probably encountered it and can point you in the right direction. However there are plenty of people who don't know what they are doing. If it's some bullshit ABS code on a Mercedes I send them to a dealer.

6) Would you be open to remote diagnosis and/or coding?

I have J2539 (2002) open in front of me right now. I've never read it but it seems to be about remote communication, which is kind of what you are talking about here when it comes to outsourcing diagnosis.

Here's the thing. If I have an Evaporative emissions code on and it's not a gas cap, what could a remote diagnosis service do besides read some diagnostic procedure to me? If I have an ABS code, well I'd like to know what that code is but then somebody has to go through and start checking relays or other modules. How can someone do that remotely?

7) How much would you consider fair for per use vehicle codings?

No idea

10/21/2011 8:49:24 PM

Thanks for taking the time.

About the diagnostics...there have been lots of changes in the last few years in connecting all the modules onto"buses". Ex: CAN. The functions that are controlled on these central gateways continues to increase. Using OEM software (with J_2534) we can view actual values on a wide variety of systems in the car, as well as read detailed descriptions of DTC's. Having access to this information directly, combined with collective data points from all manufacturers (sourced partnership no doubt) would enable master techs to reasonably deduce the most likely fix remotely. Eventually an accumulation of data would likely result in a more automated process on our side, meaning we could consider hiring skilled technicians rather than factory trained Master Techs.

Again, this is not currently possible with all car lines. Toyota and Volvo fully integrated j2534 in their software when federal law required them standardize emissions reprogramming in 2003. Most just made available a stripped down version of their software with emissions protocols.

A pretty good summary can be found here: http://www.drewtech.com/support/j2534/intro.html

^^ Not right now. Hopefully soon.

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[Edited on October 23, 2011 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

10/23/2011 2:57:03 PM