My sister's boyfriend is a bit of a hipster and posted this on Facebook. This article details how a minimum wage job can no longer afford to pay for college tuition.

Now, that makes sense and all...but isn't the author forgetting financial aid, federal grants, etc that are in place and regularly used by students to pay for college? Not even including scholarships, I'm saying stuff that you just have to qualify for. I want to make sure before I go all 'loljournalismmath' on his status, so naturally I turn to TWW for some answers:

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2011/11/a_minimum_wage_job_no_longer_c.html

Quote :

"CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Once upon a time -- not too long ago -- a minimum wage job was enough to pay the typical college bill. Not any more. It's not even close at Ohio’s public universities, once the cost of tuition, fees, room and board are totaled. I was curious about whether it is more difficult for students to work their way through college — absent additional grants, scholarships, loans or parent help — than when their moms and dads went to school. The cleanest way to look at this, I figured, would be to examine the impact on working students of two often debated, though usually separate, topics: the increasing cost of college and the minimum wage. What I found was that working full time for minimum wage year-round would leave today’s student about $3,200 short of being able to pay their tuition, fees, room and board. Thirty years ago, minimum wage was enough to pay all the same college bills and still have $3,500 left over. Put another way —perhaps more realistically for someone trying to juggle work and schoolwork — a student in 1981-82 could make enough money to pay for college by working just nine hours a week during the school year and full-time during breaks. At the time, the minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. The average cost of attending and living on campus at a four-year public university in Ohio was $3,431, according to the U.S. Department of Education. Now, based on data from the Ohio Board of Regents, the tuition, fees, room and board total averages nearly $19,000 at the main campuses for the state schools. Ohio’s minimum wage will increase from $7.40 per hour to $7.70 on Jan. 1. So what if a student today worked full-time during breaks, nine hours a week during the school year and could transfer every penny to the college bursar’s office? He or she would end up more than $11,000 short. The first year when working full-time, year-round was not enough to pay the bills was in the 2001-02 school year. The biggest deficit was in 2005-06, when a student working full-time would have been $5,300 short. The gap closed considerably after voters approved a change in the Ohio Constitution to increase the minimum wage and adjust it annually. However, the shortage has widened each of the last three school years. Who is to blame, or whether this should even be considered a problem, is a political question. But here are some of the trends that have gone into the change. • If the minimum wage had kept up with inflation since 1981, it would be $8.34 per hour now instead of $7.25 at the federal level (Ohio's minimum wage of $7.40 is now higher than the federal rate, unlike in 1981). • If the cost of attending college in Ohio had followed inflation since 1981, it would be just over $8,500 a year instead of nearly $19,000. • Ohio ranked 12th highest nationally for the cost of an education at a four-year public university in 2009-10, an improvement from sixth highest in 1981-82, though still above the national average. Other questions include whether the colleges have done enough to keep costs down and how difficult it is for young people to find work, or work paying above the minimum wage"

11/22/2011 8:17:30 AM

I guess the argument is there was once a time when you could pay your way through college just working some crappy job and not receiving any other monetary help. My great-grandfather paid his way through college during the Great Depression by selling shoes door-to-door. He must have been a pretty damn good salesman to sell destitute people enough shoes to go to college lol.

11/22/2011 8:19:42 AM

Probably part of the reason there are all these grants and scholarships is because the increased tuition.

Our government would save money if we didn't need all these federal grants for people to go to college because they can afford to go to college.

11/22/2011 8:23:21 AM

All the financial aid and grants are the reason college is unaffordable, FYI. Same principle as the housing market. If the government dumps money into it, people will simply raise prices to take advantage. Colleges raised prices since there is an unlimited amount of government money available for tuition.

Just as it was the feel-good political issue to get everyone houses, it is a feel-good political issue to pay for everyone's college. The unintended consequence is that college has become unaffordable.

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 8:27 AM. Reason : .]

11/22/2011 8:27:23 AM

^ Yep. This isn't really a problem because the minimum wage is too low. It's a problem because tuition is way too high.

11/22/2011 8:49:23 AM

Although a full time job on minimum wage isn't really enough to even make a living much less make a living and pay for college.

11/22/2011 8:52:45 AM

Quote :

"Probably part of the reason there are all these grants and scholarships is because the increased tuition."

maybe because tuition is high in the first place. The recession didn't increase the supply of financial aid, only the demand for it.

11/22/2011 8:53:08 AM

I would be more apt to blame ever increasing tuition costs and wistful spending at the university's level than minimum wage. Also, do a couple years at community college and then transfer in.

11/22/2011 8:53:45 AM

Fail thread

11/22/2011 8:54:01 AM

WTH IS WRONG WITH POOR PEOPLE?
I KNOW THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO EAT OUT ANYMORE, BUT HAVEN'T THEY HEARD OF CREDIT CARDS???

11/22/2011 9:00:09 AM

^^^^ it's so sad how badly you missed what was said.

11/22/2011 9:06:41 AM

How about you try to not be a douche bag for once and not say anything.

11/22/2011 9:15:07 AM

I think the issue here is both the low minimum wage, that has not kept up with inflation...and the high college tuition, that has greatly surpassed inflation.

11/22/2011 9:17:26 AM

The first issue we must realize is that there is an issue that must be realized.

11/22/2011 9:19:02 AM

But is the issue that needs to be realize really the issue at hand, or is it actually and underlying issue of another issue that we have yet to realize about?

THAT is the issue...

11/22/2011 9:21:22 AM

11/22/2011 9:21:46 AM

I wish more undergrad students would take the time to sit down and think about what they *honestly* expect to do with their degree once they've finished school. If the answer is, "I don't know," then your degree is worthless to you. I see it allllllllllllllllllllllllll the time with our work study students. So much money is getting dumped into an education that they have no idea what they want to do with it once finished. I'm not saying you should have your whole career life planned out by the time you're 18, but if you can't say, "Well I will either do A or B or C with this degree and this degree gives me the credentials needed to get an entry level job in those positions," you're doing it wrong.

Anyway, point being, if less and less students would go to college for shit like basket weaving and medieval studies, maybe universities would cut those departments and save money, thus diminishing the needs to raise tuition all the time.

11/22/2011 9:22:50 AM

^^^ I never thought of it like that before. Perhaps I should keep a more open mind about things...







Nah, I'm way too invested in my beliefs to be wrong about them at this point.



[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 9:25 AM. Reason : ^Also, this. But that is not how college is marketed to high schoolers AT ALL]

11/22/2011 9:23:43 AM

Quote :

"I think the issue here is both the low minimum wage, that has not kept up with inflation...and the high college tuition, that has greatly surpassed inflation."

and you still don't understand why college tuition is high. until you understand that, you won't understand the solution.

11/22/2011 9:46:39 AM

Quote :

"Probably part of the reason there are all these grants and scholarships is because the increased tuition. Our government would save money if we didn't need all these federal grants for people to go to college because they can afford to go to college."

Flip it and reverse it.

College tuition is inflated because there is so much easy money available due to subsidized loans and grants for education.

If no one could afford college, colleges would have to reduce costs to stay in business.

11/22/2011 9:52:03 AM

that doesn't make sense because the system of loans and scholarships came about because colleges were perfectly happy catering to the elite. Its asinine to think if we stopped that system prices would just drop. There are other factors

11/22/2011 10:00:55 AM

Quote :

"Also, this. But that is not how college is marketed to high schoolers AT ALL"

True true. I do think it will be interesting to see how these economic woes we're in right now will affect college enrollment and what degrees students enter. There are already rumblings that they're beginning to see a bit of a shift away from degrees like Judaic Studies and Art History as I'm sure high school juniors and seniors are hearing from older siblings and cousins and shit how they graduated with a degree in performing arts and can't find squat for a job.

11/22/2011 10:01:05 AM

^^ it's also asinine to think that it isn't having an effect on prices at all. you've got a system where people are told they need something. the cost is high, so they get loans. the people loaning the money have zero incentive to ensure that students can reasonably pay off the loan, because the loan can't be discharged in bankruptcy. and then, once the loan goes into default, the lender can charge 20-30% interest!

so, you've got a product that people see as a necessity, which makes it valuable and expensive. you've got people with nothing to lose by lending money to the people who want that product, so the consumer has no real need, up front, to demand lower prices. what, exactly, do you think is going to happen in that situation?

11/22/2011 10:08:00 AM

moron

Quote :

"the system of loans and scholarships came about because colleges were ...catering to the elite. "

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 10:11 AM. Reason : --]

11/22/2011 10:08:10 AM

you're a pack_bryan if you don't think there was at least some level of elitism in higher education earlier in the century, dude

11/22/2011 10:15:11 AM

Quote :

"that doesn't make sense because the system of loans and scholarships came about because colleges were perfectly happy catering to the elite. Its asinine to think if we stopped that system prices would just drop. There are other factors"

Sure, there are other factors, but they aren't significant.

A college education used to mean something, because it was hard to get. Now everyone and their mother has a Bachelors degree, which has now become the new high school diploma.

This isn't a good thing. As it makes people believe that they need a college degree to be competitive, which is only half right. Sure, you are more competitive with a college degree if you have no other marketable skills. But if you have a trade skill (e.g. welding, plumbing, electrical, etc.) you can earn a very healthy living with out having to go balls deep in to debt.

Basing college loans on the type of degree one is pursuing is a step in the right direction. A person applying for a loan for an engineering or computer science degree should receive it over someone who is studying humanities.

One is much more likely to have job security and be able to create value than the other.



[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 10:24 AM. Reason : ;]

11/22/2011 10:23:07 AM

Quote :

"do a couple years at community college and then transfer in"

Yes, a bunch of my friends did this and saved a crapload of money.

11/22/2011 10:47:59 AM

Quote :

""the system of loans and scholarships came about because colleges were ...catering to the elite. ""

Agreed.

Loans and Scholarships IS TO schools AS Health Insurance IS TO hospitals.

It's guaranteed money.
There's NO incentive to charge anything less than the MAXIMUM rate.
No competition.
Students will get in without having to haggle prices or ask for discounts.


Once you figure it out, it's devastating to a healthy society.
People can't afford health care now without health insurance.

Also, health insurance is a monthly payment for the rest of your life.

It creates slaves to debt everywhere you turn.


[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 2:49 PM. Reason : [Edited on November 22, 2011 at 2:47 PM. Reason : .]]

11/22/2011 2:46:08 PM

Quote :

"Loans and Scholarships IS TO schools AS Health Insurance IS TO hospitals."

The fatal flaw in that statement is that hospitals charge insurance companies much less for their services than they do private individuals. If you walk in with no insurance and get a $10k bill you might negotiate it to half that price if you pay the full amount up front, but an insurance company would probably only see a bill for 1/3 the original amount to begin with.

11/22/2011 3:27:57 PM

and the fatal flaw in your analaysis is that hospitals have to jack up their prices because they know insurance companies will only pay a percentage of what the hospitals asks for. ergo, insurance companies, themselves, help to increase prices

11/22/2011 3:29:44 PM

Actually, I've saved $1000s by offering to pay in cash. Hidden cash rebates ftw.

11/22/2011 3:32:41 PM

Quote :

"and the fatal flaw in your analaysis is that hospitals have to jack up their prices because they know insurance companies will only pay a percentage of what the hospitals asks for. ergo, insurance companies, themselves, help to increase prices"

That might be one factor.

How about the fact that insurance companies, unlike most uninsured people, actually pay their bills?

What about the power of bulk buying? If any agency did $50 million in business with their tech supplier you can bet they'd be given a pretty huge discount. Why shouldn't an insurance company that pays out $millions in bills be given a break?

While GB might actually be paying his bills I've read that only about 5% of hospital bills to uninsured patients are paid in full.

I find it hard to blame the insurance companies for not letting themselves get gouged any more than they already are just because a bunch of saps without insurance are taking the system for a ride. That's something the healthcare providers and court systems need to be fixing.

Not saying the insurance companies are entirely faultless, but negotiating discounts on ridiculously overpriced hospital bills is one of the least of my concerns with them.

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 3:46 PM. Reason : l]

11/22/2011 3:41:15 PM

Can always join the military or Coast Guard.

11/22/2011 3:47:01 PM

^^ what you still aren't understanding, though, is that the prices are still high precisely because the insurance companies get a percentage discount! you are correct that lots of the uninsured don't pay off their bills, nor do they plan to, because why does it matter? After a while, IIRC, it drops off your credit report. And that should be fixed. But, when most people are using insurance, it makes perfect sense that the hospital must also adjust for the fact that the insurance company is paying only a percentage of the bill.

I would ask why the insurance company gets off like that. You say there's a power in buying in bulk, sure, but they still promised to pay the bill. Why does the bill magically become different on account of which person is paying it, even though the same person still received the treatment? Fact is, if the insurance company paid full price, the price would be lower. But they don't, so it isn't.

11/22/2011 3:51:23 PM

I agree with half of the above posts.

11/22/2011 3:55:57 PM

People don't pay their bills because they don't have money. How can insurers pay for all the health insurance if only 5% pay their bills. IT JUST DOESN'T ADD UP.


This leads us back to occupy wallstreet.


Who owns the quantity of money.
Why do they have it?
What are they doing with it?
When will we see it?

There's $14 trillion dollars out there, yet everyone is broke.

11/22/2011 4:02:39 PM

Quote :

"People don't pay their bills because they don't have money."

I am not disagreeing with this at all, however how many people don't have money because of frivolous spending / poor fiscal responsibility? I'm not saying everyone down on OWS or who is living paycheck to paycheck is walking around with brand new clothes, the latest iphone/ipod and the best data plan money can buy, etc but I'd be willing to bet a good chunk are.

If people can't pay their credit card debit/student loans because they decided to spend money on items then didn't need, they're not entitled to any sort of hand out.

11/22/2011 4:14:27 PM

Quote :

"how many people don't have money because of frivolous spending / poor fiscal responsibility?"

Which brings is back to our education system

Why do they not have a class about this in school.

It's one of the most important classes in our lives.

It's a beautiful system designed by a government owned by (particular) corporations.


[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

11/22/2011 4:17:46 PM

You can lead a horse to water....

It's common sense not to spend more than you make, or if you're in debt don't buy fancy electronics.

Yes I don't expect an average person to figure out mutual funds, roth ira's, etc by themselves, however, many banks offer these services for free! Banks are the enemy, I went to my bank a couple years ago and asked for help saving money, coming up with a plan etc and they went above and beyond to help me meet my goals.

11/22/2011 4:21:39 PM

Quote :

"^^ what you still aren't understanding, though, is that the prices are still high precisely because the insurance companies get a percentage discount! you are correct that lots of the uninsured don't pay off their bills, nor do they plan to, because why does it matter? After a while, IIRC, it drops off your credit report. And that should be fixed. But, when most people are using insurance, it makes perfect sense that the hospital must also adjust for the fact that the insurance company is paying only a percentage of the bill. I would ask why the insurance company gets off like that. You say there's a power in buying in bulk, sure, but they still promised to pay the bill. Why does the bill magically become different on account of which person is paying it, even though the same person still received the treatment? Fact is, if the insurance company paid full price, the price would be lower. But they don't, so it isn't."

I'm saying that the insurance company is paying more than a fair rate for the services performed regardless of the ridiculous "MSRP" applied by the hospital.

If people would get insurance or pay their damn bills everything would be fine, but, as you freely admitted, the uninsured don't pay their bills. Don't try to push the problem onto my insurance company and therefore me as the person who has to pay an insurance bill every month for coverage. The problem is with those who get treatment and don't pay for it. That is a problem for the hospitals and the courts to fix; not my privately held insurance company.

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 4:23 PM. Reason : s]

11/22/2011 4:22:08 PM

common sense is not always common when the common person doesn't have sense.

11/22/2011 4:22:13 PM

So are you saying we (as a nation, world, etc) need to sit down with people and say "Hey, I notice you got some credit card debt there, how about paying that off first and put that brand new iphone 4s down"...I'm willing to bet if you have to tell someone that, they're not going to listen.

11/22/2011 4:24:17 PM

Quote :

"I'm saying that the insurance company is paying more than a fair rate for the services performed regardless of the ridiculous "MSRP" applied by the hospital."

and what happens, then, if the hospital only charges that "fair rate" you speak of? the insurance company STILL pays x% of that fair rate.

let's test your business acumen here: if you know that the vast majority of your customers will get a 50% discount on their purchases from you, no matter what, how do you respond?

Do you:

A) keep prices the same and go out of business
B) double your prices and stay in business

11/22/2011 4:25:43 PM

Quote :

"So are you saying we (as a nation, world, etc) need to sit down with people and say "Hey, I notice you got some credit card debt there, how about paying that off first and put that brand new iphone 4s down"...I'm willing to bet if you have to tell someone that, they're not going to listen."

No, I'm saying, why don't we teach people how not go to into debt at all.

WORK FIRST, BUY LATER.

NOT buy now, work later.

debt accrues interest. Having money, does not.

Why? because the banks and the credit card companies lose. If they lose, YOU win.

Debtfree = freedom!


[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 4:31 PM. Reason : .]

11/22/2011 4:29:30 PM

You can try to teach people that all you want, doesn't mean they're going to listen. My bank has helped me save a decent amount for retirement / savings, I'm not seeing how banks are the enemies.

I'm not a fan of credit cards, so I don't have one so can't really attest to them 'being evil'

Basic fiscal responsibility is common sense, even if it wasn', how about all the banks pay for INDEPENDENT financial specialists to led seminars and classes for free for everyone who wants them...would that make you happy? Or do we need to hit a reset button on debt, give those lessons, and then call it good?

11/22/2011 4:35:51 PM

i say we take it a step further and not just make all college 100% free, but also make mandatory

yay high school part 2.. weeee!!!

11/22/2011 4:36:39 PM

Quote :

"You can try to teach people that all you want, doesn't mean they're going to listen. My bank has helped me save a decent amount for retirement / savings, I'm not seeing how banks are the enemies. I'm not a fan of credit cards, so I don't have one so can't really attest to them 'being evil' Basic fiscal responsibility is common sense, even if it wasn', how about all the banks pay for INDEPENDENT financial specialists to led seminars and classes for free for everyone who wants them...would that make you happy? Or do we need to hit a reset button on debt, give those lessons, and then call it good?"

It sounds like a good homework assignment for you. Try to answer these questions for yourself.

11/22/2011 4:38:14 PM

you can go ahead and take the room & board off that calculation. last time i checked living on campus wasn't required for a college degree.

and, the path of least money resistance would to attend community college for 2 years then transfer.

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 4:43 PM. Reason : .]

11/22/2011 4:42:36 PM

So what you're saying is "I can't justify anything I'm saying, so I'm going to make you try to do it for me"

11/22/2011 4:43:38 PM

I'm saying, stop being lazy and sloppy. You aren't even trying to educate yourself.

You isolate yourself from the problem and say "i don't see what's so bad about them"

[Edited on November 22, 2011 at 4:47 PM. Reason : .]

11/22/2011 4:46:08 PM