Ok, it's rare that I make 2 threads in a day, let alone 3. But I just love you guys that much.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/2012/01/10/gIQAKz225P_story.html?hpid=z4

Quote :

"If your home is your castle, you should be able to do anything legal you want in it, including lighting up a cigarette, right? Some residents in the Washington area are challenging that notion, arguing that secondhand smoke seeps through the walls and affects their health. In some recent cases, residents have taken steps to prevent their neighbors from smoking in their own units, following the lead of other condo associations and groups of residents across the country. The issue pits neighbor against neighbor, has taken over homeowner association agendas and has caused a major legal debate over public health and individual rights of homeowners. Federal incentives have led cities from Austin to Boston to prohibit smoking in public housing. In 2006, a Manhattan judge ruled that secondhand smoke could be a breach of “warranty of habitability” under New York law. And six California cities and counties have banned smoking in all condo units. Last year at the Promenade Towers in Bethesda, a co-op with more than 1,000 units, neighbors on the first floor complained about a resident chain smoker. The building’s management took steps to contain the smoke by sealing gaps in the walls and issuing a “cease and desist” order to the smoker, who installed a second air filtration system. But the smoke, according to some residents, was still unbearable. “I leave doors and windows open, even as I sleep,” said Ximena Marquez-Dagan, whose young daughter has asthma. “I’ve moved to sleep in my daughter’s room now because the other side of the apartment is full of smoke.” For years, smoking in one’s home wasn’t much of a dilemma. In 1965, 42 percent of Americans smoked, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and those who didn’t were used to secondhand smoke in offices, stores and other people’s homes. Several decades ago, smoking was even advertised as healthful. But starting with the U.S. Surgeon General’s report in 1964, Americans have slowly turned against “the evil weed”; barely 20 percent smoke today, fewer around Washington. “There is no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke,” the Surgeon General’s Web site emphasizes. Smoking has been banned in most workplaces for decades. More jurisdictions, including many in the Washington area, now ban smoking in restaurants, and some extend that to parks and play areas. “If you’re a homeowner, you should retain the right to smoke. It’s your property, and it’s a legal product,” said Jolyn Tenn, spokesperson for Forces International, a libertarian nonprofit founded to fight non-smoking laws. Although public opinion and habits might be changing, the law isn’t always very clear. When indoor smokers Darko and Svetlana Popovic moved into a Greenbelt townhouse next door to non-smoker David S. Schuman in 1996, they shared smoke as well as an attic. Schuman complained about the smoke seeping into his unit to the building’s management company, Greenbelt Homes Inc. The company caulked around baseboards, plumbing and electrical outlets in both homes to try and eliminate the issue. The problem lessened, though Schuman said that this was because his neighbors, the Popovics, started smoking only outside — not because the caulking had worked. Schuman eventually sued Greenbelt Homes Inc. in Prince George’s County Circuit Court on the grounds that secondhand smoke violated the “nuisance clause” of his mutual ownership contract. Darko Popovic acknowledged that cigarette smoke had migrated into his neighbors’ units, but he also told the court that walking 75 feet to an outdoor common area to smoke was too much of an imposition and that “the whole thing is overblown.” Citing his wife’s illness, he declined to comment for this article. In November 2011, the court ruled in favor of Greenbelt Homes Inc. “It is a decision, in my view, that’s going to have to be made by the legislature. . . . I cannot find that there is an actionable nuisance in this case,” said Judge Albert Northrop, noting that he didn’t want to set a precedent and that there did not appear to be harm to Schuman’s health. Schuman appealed, but has put his house on the market. “I don’t want to move,” he said, “but my fiancee and I want to have children, and we won’t subject them to secondhand smoke.” He has already spent more than $70,000 on the case, he said. “I’m pursuing this because we’ve come so far and because this will affect a great many people. “Perhaps Judge Northrop was saying that he doesn’t want to get out ahead of any pending legislation,” Schuman added. Maryland Del. Ben Kramer, who represents east-central Montgomery County, plans to introduce a bill this session to modify the “nuisance statute” so that it clearly includes secondhand smoke. Noting that “Utah’s done something similar,” he said Marylanders would “be welcome to smoke in their own home unless there’s a legitimate complaint. This would put the burden of mitigating such a complaint on the creator of the nuisance, not on those adversely affected.” Among Kramer’s constituents is Harriet Hershman, of Silver Spring, who said she asked a neighbor to smoke outdoors because secondhand smoke had seeped into her unit, caused her eyes to burn, led her to develop a cough and forced her to spend nights with friends and relatives, and even in her own car, to avoid the fumes. “He said he has a right to smoke in his own home,” she said. The Wintergate at Longmead Condo Association issued a cease-and-desist order, which the smoker appears to be obeying, according to Hershman’s lawyer, J.P. Szymkowicz. “I might be able to move,” she said before hearing of the smoker’s decision, “but where can I go that I won’t end up in the same situation?” Hershman approached Kramer about nuisance legislation because, she said, “Maybe I can help make a change.” Legal experts say the local courts have ruled on either side of the issue. Some state courts have held that substantial amounts of smoke transferring between units is a nuisance. But others have determined that the cigarette smoke is like an odor intrusion — a condition of living in a community environment that residents have to put up with, according to the Public Health Law Center at Minnesota’s William Mitchell College of Law. Despite the fact that four-fifths of Americans don’t smoke, someone circulating a petition or even openly complaining about secondhand condo smoke risks others’ wrath. At the Promenade Towers and elsewhere, several smokers’ neighbors were nervous about a backlash if their comments went public. When Promenade Towers’ owners took the smoking ban up for a vote last July, the measure did not pass. “Instead of trying to solve their problem with the individual neighbor, they tried to get the whole building involved,” said resident Keith Feldman, of the petitioners. A smoker, he voted against the ban. “If people are thinking of moving into a building, they should ask if smoking is allowed. If you’re allergic, maybe you shouldn’t move in.” The Promenade Towers’ group of residents who pushed for a smoking ban then asked the board to enact a house rule instead, but the board unanimously refused. “The bylaws give authority to make rules on use on parking or use of the common areas, but restrictions on uses of the unit are more specific” and therefore legally harder to make “a mere rule” on, said attorney Jason Fisher, speaking for the co-op . Although smoking ban efforts failed at The Promenade, Marquez-Dugan she said she believes a more health-concious public will eventually prevail. "Change won't happen any time soon, but when it comes to health, eventually it does get there.""

So, where exactly does it end?
Office, ok
Public places, whatever
Bars, fine
But are non-smokers really going to tell smokers what they can do in their own home?


Thoughts?

1/18/2012 4:51:57 PM

I think they have a case if there's measurable pollution to their property. It's not unreasonable to ask people to control their smoke. Maybe use an air filter or something.

I definitely don't think an outright ban would be called for, though. Should be case-by-case.

1/18/2012 4:59:33 PM

No one asked you for your thoughts

1/18/2012 5:00:45 PM

It's only a problem when it crosses into someone else's home or creates a legitimate impact to the public and private spaces around their home.

I'm not one of those people who looks for a chance to feel offended every time I smell cigarette smoke, but I see this as no different than a filthy hoarder's house that gets condemned. When it impacts the safety and well being of your neighbors it becomes a problem.

Would you feel different if the stink came from rotting carcasses that the neighbor was collecting form the side of the road?

[Edited on January 18, 2012 at 5:02 PM. Reason : s]

1/18/2012 5:00:59 PM

Quote :

"Would you feel different if the stink came from rotting carcasses that the neighbor was collecting form the side of the road?"

thats not something 1 in 5 people do

1/18/2012 5:02:28 PM

Quote :

"No one asked you for your thoughts"

when has that ever stopped me?

1/18/2012 5:03:13 PM

Quote :

"thats not something 1 in 5 people do"

Well that makes it right.

1/18/2012 5:03:34 PM

Some serious bullshit

People love telling other people which itches they can and can't scratch, and how

1/18/2012 5:04:02 PM

So, I think that's the issue that needs to be defined:

Is what the neighbors are smelling carcinogen-filled second hand smoke that's causing damage?

or

is it an odor?





If just an odor, than this isn't different than someone cooking curry in the apartment next to yours, and you not liking the smell.

1/18/2012 5:05:07 PM

Quote :

"when has that ever stopped me? "

Carry on.

1/18/2012 5:05:45 PM

Quote :

"So, I think that's the issue that needs to be defined: Is what the neighbors are smelling carcinogen-filled second hand smoke that's causing damage? or is it an odor? If just an odor, than this isn't different than someone cooking curry in the apartment next to yours, and you not liking the smell."

Does it even matter? I don't get to be free from the damaging effects of breathing in car exhaust

1/18/2012 5:06:27 PM

I paid nearly $70,000 for this condo. Why can't I just live in filth without worrying about how it impacts my neighbors?!?!

How could this happen to meeeeeeeeeee??????????

1/18/2012 5:07:56 PM

Quote :

"I don't get to be free from the damaging effects of breathing in car exhaust"

You have a problem with car exhaust in your house?

1/18/2012 5:08:37 PM

Quote :

"Does it even matter?"

In my opinion, no. However, I was basing that question off of the precedents set forth so far... whereas the basis for other similar laws being passed is the implied health risk to non-smokers.

1/18/2012 5:08:59 PM

Quote :

" You have a problem with car exhaust in your house?"

No smart ass, just the second I leave my house for any reason whatsoever to go literally anywhere

or when my house happens to interact with the air around it

[Edited on January 18, 2012 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

1/18/2012 5:09:21 PM

For the record, I have no problem with people smoking in their home and I would never support an outright ban on it.

I don't think that gives you the right to shit on your neighbors though.

1/18/2012 5:09:34 PM

Quote :

"No smart ass"

So no

Quote :

"or when my house happens to interact with the air around it"

So yes

1/18/2012 5:10:13 PM

I paid nearly $70,000 for this condo. Why can't I blast my music as loud as I want?!?!???

How could this happen to meeeeeeeeeee???????

1/18/2012 5:11:29 PM

There's a fuckload of things we're doing as a nation that are poisoning the living hell out of the environment. Now you're gonna tell me some company can frack and stream its waste, but I can't light up a cigarette in my own house?

1/18/2012 5:12:56 PM

Let's talk about the damage to general air quality caused by non-smoking car commuters instead if we want to solve a real problem

1/18/2012 5:13:40 PM

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2008/07/01/scientific-evidence-shows-secondhand-smoke-no-danger

1/18/2012 5:14:28 PM

This is why I only smoke that Dre Kirkpatrick

1/18/2012 5:14:40 PM

Swisher Sweets by Dre

1/18/2012 5:16:18 PM

I'm just saying fuck these yuppies that are sniffing around the baseboards and bitching about their filthy smoker neighbors

Nobody's a saint here; how about we ban your stupid fucking SUV instead

1/18/2012 5:16:28 PM

So, from this thread: /message_topic.aspx?topic=561903 I'd like to hear from the people that essentially said "if you want to smoke, smoke in your own house"

and from this thread: /message_topic.aspx?topic=622290 I'd like to hear from the people that essentially said "the company should be able to do what they want"


In my opinion, the government shouldn't be able to say "ok, this substance (tobacco) is legal" but then ban all places that people might use that substance.


thoughts?

1/18/2012 5:16:49 PM

honest question

have any of you that have lived in apartments/condos ever been sitting in your living room watching tv and thought "whats that smell? oh the neighbors are smoking cigarettes inside again"?

1/18/2012 5:19:22 PM

Maybe we could make smoker's parks.
You know, like dog parks, but for smokers.

1/18/2012 5:19:30 PM

We live in a society where people are only willing to tolerate the worst, largest impositions, and unwilling to tolerate the least important shit

1/18/2012 5:20:41 PM

Quote :

"Maybe we could make smoker's parks. You know, like dog parks, but for smokers."

maybe we could throw you in a forced labor camp

1/18/2012 5:21:21 PM

big government protecting us all again- I don't know what I'd do without them (and all the freedoms and money I'd have if they weren't around...)

1/18/2012 5:40:37 PM

I should be able to drink at a bar without smelling like cigarettes

I should be able to walk down my apartment complex's breezeway and closely sniff each neighbor's door without smelling cigarette smoke

1/18/2012 6:03:42 PM

I know some use the words apartment and condo interchangeably

but

yeah, with a condo....you've even purchased that property, correct?

1/18/2012 6:06:42 PM

yeah so in one sense, if i purchase a home, i would think i'd have more rights about what the place is exposed to

but on the other hand, my neighbor who smokes that also bought his condo would think he'd have more rights to smoke a legal product in his own home

rent or buy, apartment or condo, seems like both parties have arguments

just seems like one side's argument is to be nazis

1/18/2012 6:12:44 PM

I think there's a reasonable limit here, I just don't know how you'd define it. If your neighbor smoking makes your apartment smell like shit, there's a case to be had. If, like some people have said, you're sniffing at your door jam, get over it.

1/18/2012 6:16:16 PM

I just meant in apartments, often the building can dictate rules in the lease such as "no smoking"

but I can't imagine BUYING a house, condo, or car for that matter... and have someone tell me what I can or can't do with my purchase.

1/18/2012 6:16:38 PM

yeah if your rental lease or your condo's HOA agreement says something about no smoking, thats one thing

anecdotally, i've lived in a few apartments where people smoked inside, and the neighbors next door have been non smokers...never heard any complaints about a smell seeping into an adjacent unit

wonder if someone could argue that the fault is more on the construction/maintenance upkeep of the property than the smoker, ie lets require all places to renovate to have 4-foot thick walls!

1/18/2012 6:23:10 PM

I don't smoke, so I don't care. Shit is gross...fuck 'em.

1/18/2012 6:28:02 PM

jbrick you're a lawyer or something close, what would be your legal view of this matter?

1/18/2012 6:31:11 PM

these people must live in cardboard boxes

this is just taking it too far

1/18/2012 6:43:00 PM

The pussification of America

1/18/2012 6:43:20 PM

Quote :

"jbrick you're a lawyer or something close, what would be your legal view of this matter?"

I'm not reading this thread.

1/18/2012 6:48:45 PM

lol


I swear to God, some of you fine gentleman log onto this message board to scroll through and look for colorful pictures.

1/18/2012 6:51:00 PM

only if they're of josdfie's boobs

[Edited on January 18, 2012 at 7:04 PM. Reason : sdfsd]

1/18/2012 6:57:00 PM

^^ Everyone is suppose to get serious when you ask them to? You're not as important as you think.

1/18/2012 7:04:01 PM

Quote :

"these people must live in cardboard boxes"

1/18/2012 7:05:44 PM

Nah, not even serious... especially not in chit chat

but coming to a message board to "not read" just seems a bit odd. carry on.

1/18/2012 7:06:34 PM

just quit smoking, its that simple, and live longer

1/18/2012 7:12:57 PM

I had to talk to the management at sumter square about the smoke smell from my neighbors, but it was a building problem, not a neighbor problem. Our dryer vents were connected and every time either of us dried our clothes my apartment smelled like a wet ashtray. They rerouted my vent and the smell went away. If Sumter Square can fix it, any building should be able to fix it.

1/18/2012 7:13:55 PM

I've never been in any apartment and smelled smoke from another unit. I'm not sure what kind of shanties people are living in, that seems like an issue for a landlord or property manager to fix.

But I do agree that it should count as a nuisance in the case where two porches might be near each other, the should smoker take steps to not let their smoke drift to other units. It's the same reason I can't blast music/movies all day and night.

1/18/2012 7:50:52 PM

set set em em up up

[Edited on January 18, 2012 at 7:55 PM. Reason : dos dos]

1/18/2012 7:55:38 PM