I have been debating with people about how non-organic milk is just as safe as organic milk (from a scientific standpoint) but everyone just keeps saying "theres tons of studies showing non organic milk is bad for you". People site hormones, antibiotics, etc etc but everything I read is to the contrary (rBGH breaks down and is inactive in humans, antibiotic testing is very strict, etc etc).

I personally think the entire "Organic is better" movement is more media based than science based, but if anyone can site any actual scientific studies done on regular milk that supports any of the claims that the Organic side make that would be appreciated.

7/22/2012 1:27:04 PM

cite

7/22/2012 1:55:09 PM

I, for one, see Americans who drink too much cow's milk turn into cows

7/22/2012 2:06:21 PM

organic: short for, "goes bad twice as fast, costs twice as much"

7/22/2012 2:23:57 PM

^this is true. My organic vanilla soymilk only lasts 7 days after opening and it's $3.15 for half a gallon.

7/22/2012 2:25:57 PM

These articles/sources are what is used to cite that non-organic milk is safe and most of the organic milk "facts" are just myths or misinformation. What I am looking for are any actual scientific studies done in credible journals that can prove otherwise.

1United States Department of Agriculture. Organic Production and Handling Standards 2006. Retrieved 14 July 2008. http://www.ams.usda.gov.

2United States Department of Agriculture. Agricultural Marketing Service. http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5082660&acct=noprulemaking.

1U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition. National Milk Drug Residue Data Base. Fiscal Year 2009 Annual Report. February 12, 2010. http://www.nationaldairycouncil.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/footer/FAQ/food_safety/FoodSafetyFactSheetPDF.pdf..

2US Dept of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, Food and Drug Administration. Grade "A" Pasteurized Milk Ordinance – 2005 Revision. Washington, D.C.: USDHHS, PHS, FDA, 2005.

1Vicini J et al. J Am Diet Assoc 2008; 108:1198.

2Food & Drug Administration, http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/SafetyHealth/ProductSafetyInformation/ucm055435.htm, site Accessed 8/4/2011.

3http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK15180/ Accessed 8/4/2011.

4http://www.fao.org/waicent/ois/press_ne/presseng/1998/pren9817.htm Accessed 8/4/2011.

5http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/vet/issues-enjeux/rbst-stbr/rep_rcpsc-rap_crmcc-eng.php Accessed 8/4/2011.

1Moore LL. J Am Coll Nutr 2008;27(6):702-10
2Kaplowitz PB. Pediatrics 2008; 121(supp 3):208S.
3 Vicini J et al. J Am Diet Assoc 2008; 108:1198.
4Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010, 7th ed, 2010.

7/22/2012 9:08:23 PM

What is difficult about issues like this is once you determine whether they're safe or not, tomorrow is another day.

Standards and practices constantly change.
Ingredients vary from farm to farm.

I feel like it would be impossible to know for sure if they're just as safe because ingredients change, chemicals change, people change.

I mean... milk can kill those that are allergic to it. If you prove it's safe on one person, it doesn't mean it won't kill someone else who's allergic to it.

Because of this fact, we can't really determine whether it's proven unsafe unless we have a large sample who develop abnormalities which are directly associated with the milk.

Everyday, millions of people drink both kinds of milk and I don't see people complaining about their health being affected by drinking milk. (except those who are lactose intolerant)

IBTjazon.

7/22/2012 9:32:06 PM

Thanks for showing us you don't understand research or statistics.

Not really a surprise.

7/22/2012 9:34:40 PM

Quote :

"organic: short for, "goes bad twice as fast, costs twice as much""

er, i experience the opposite... in terms of shelf life.

BUT

that has nothing to do with it being organic.

you can't find half-gallon containers of non-organic milk that are packed in paper cartons. They're always in translucent plastic, and they expire as soon as you get home (hyperbole), whereas most organic milk comes in waxed paper cartons and lasts around a month.

7/22/2012 9:36:53 PM

Organic milk is typically pasteurized at higher temperatures.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=experts-organic-milk-lasts-longer

7/22/2012 9:42:45 PM

Bobby, all the organic milks I've bought expire 7 days after opening. I agree that if you don't open it, they have a long shelf life.

what ever happened to these? I can't find a real picture anywhere

7/22/2012 10:03:21 PM

Honestly shelf life was never part of the debate, if it was you could bring in a quote from the very last part of the link you posted:

Quote :

"There are, of course, lots of reasons people buy organic milk. But if it's the long shelf life you're after, I would recommend you buy nonorganic UHT milk and avoid being charged double."

Still looking for studies done about effects of rBGH, antibiotics, and also onset of early puberty in girls that give any evidence to support the organic side of the arguement, as everything I have read said there are no such studies.

7/22/2012 10:46:43 PM

^^

you must have a shitty refrigerator.

I don't drink much milk, and neither does the wife.

so we take several weeks to a month to go through a half gallon. haven't had problems with it going bad as long as it's the paperboard containers.

7/23/2012 12:05:44 AM

^^you could look at the differences between america and northern european countries that have banned american milk and american style farming practices.

even if its safe i prefer orgranic milk because it tastes 25x better.

7/23/2012 1:47:20 AM

scientific studies
http://www.notmilk.com/drlarsen.html

7/23/2012 1:53:40 AM

^^^No, it literally tells you to consume within 7 days of opening on the milk carton.

7/23/2012 2:08:12 AM

you guys are not talking about organic vs non organic. you are talking about the pasteurization levels. if you buy regular milk at whole foods it goes bad in a few days if its not already bad. the same way a lot of the bread in the store is already molded.

if you buy organic valley or some other brand in the cardboard box it has been ultra pasteurized at a really high temperature and lasts a month. the same can be said about non organic milk that was ultra pasteurized.

7/23/2012 2:52:34 AM

^^

I find this statement hilarious coming from you.

7/23/2012 8:08:00 AM

Quote :

"scientific studies http://www.notmilk.com/drlarsen.html"

from this article:

Quote :

"the effect of IGF-1 in rBGH-milk on human health has never actually been tested"

7/23/2012 9:01:56 AM

organic cow milk lasts easily twice as long.

i have yet to experience soil milk expiring at all.

7/23/2012 9:11:13 AM

Yeah, the expiration of milk isnt really what I am trying to get at, its all the other things regarding human health that interest me.

7/23/2012 9:17:11 AM

Quote :

"organic: short for, "goes bad twice as fast, costs twice as much""

i've had the opposite experience, same as BoobyD. The organix milk we buy last twice as long (i'm talking about actually spoiling, not throwing away after expiration date).

7/23/2012 11:19:23 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, the expiration of milk isnt really what I am trying to get at, its all the other things regarding human health that interest me."

I'm not aware of any evidence that has proved organic is healthier in any food category. I believe it's a marketing gimmick. A very effective one at that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certified_organic#United_States_of_America
It only has to be 70% "ogranic" to be advertised as "organic". lo fucking l.

7/23/2012 11:33:49 AM

Why would you take one sentence from an article about the concerns over american milk. Either way, if something hasn't been tested, why would you drink it? I'm not going to drink some man-made chemicals that HAVEN'T BEEN TESTED and say "o its alright, the risks have never actually been tested". I want to confirm its safe before drinking. I don't see how not confirming that its unsafe is reason to drink it.

Quote :

"The evidence of a strong link between cancer risk and a high level of IGF-1 is now indisputable"

Quote :

"Despite assurances from the FDA and industry-paid consultants there are now just too many serious questions surrounding the use of milk from cows treated with synthetic growth hormone to allow its continued sale. Bovine growth hormone is banned in Australia, New Zealand and Japan. The European Union has maintained its moratorium on the use of rBGH and milk products from BST-treated cows are not sold in countries within the Union. Canada has also so far resisted pressure from the United States and the biotechnology lobby to approve the use of rBGH commercially"

The only reason this stuff is on shelves in the united states is because of the Monsanto lobby. They control all of the food you eat. If you look at first-world countries that don't have corporate governments, this stuff is illegal. Wake up people.

7/23/2012 12:54:15 PM

The only reason this stuff is on the shelf is because it's much more efficient. Monsanto doesn't want to give you cancer and if there was an actual link between rBGH-cows and cancer risk levels of IGF-1 in milk they wouldn't sell it (or rather wouldn't continue to sell it).

Just like BPAs in plastics, every single carton of milk would have a giant NO RBGH label on the side. But there isn't any science yet backing up a cancer risk from milk coming from rBGH cows.

The reason it's banned in those countries is for the health of the cows, not the humans that drink their milk. I think it's a damned good reason to ban it but don't act like they know something about how dangerous the milk is to drink that monsanto (duh duh duhhhhhhh) is hiding from us.

7/23/2012 1:21:04 PM

They don't know about it. Thats the thing. Its very difficult to know the long-term health effects of things that haven't been around all that long and a study on long-term effects would take forever. Monsanto doesn't want to give you cancer they just want to make as much money as possible as fast as possible. They don't care about the long-term effects because it will be impossible to point cases back to their products.

Are the other countries just stupid? Why would they be concerned about the health of the cow? The health of the cow couldn't possibly have anything to do with the milk they produce.

I'm going to continue eating natural food and you continue eating fake monsanto food that you don't know if its safe or dangerous.

7/23/2012 1:42:21 PM

I bet you think cell phones cause cancer too. I mean, they haven't had long term studies.

Quote :

"Are the other countries just stupid? Why would they be concerned about the health of the cow? "

I'm sure the answer is more complicated than "they are privy to information E Man can't produce but Monsanto is hiding from us anyway". I bet it has a lot to do with lobbying and their respective cultures.

[Edited on July 23, 2012 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

7/23/2012 2:01:15 PM

Jesus dude, he didn't say it causes cancer, he is saying maybe it causes cancer in the very long run, and there is no way to know that now (or even later). But luckily, there is an alternative available, so he is using that.

Same with cell phones. Maybe they cause cancer in the very long run. But are there alternatives for cell phones? The best you could do is minimize exposure, that is, don't use it when you can use a land line, and when you have to use it, use hands free so that the device doesn't come near your head.

7/23/2012 2:22:36 PM

You're not afraid of hand cancer?

7/23/2012 2:25:53 PM

Quote :

"I'm going to continue eating natural food and you continue eating fake monsanto food that you don't know if its safe or dangerous."

Do you grow every single piece of food you eat yourself? If not they you dont know 100% that the food you are eating is "safe" either. Alot of "organic" and "natural" food actually comes from china, food for thought. Hell, lately the "product of usa" labels have been found to be falsified on some products.

Quote :

"I'm not aware of any evidence that has proved organic is healthier in any food category. I believe it's a marketing gimmick. A very effective one at that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zqe4ZV9LDs Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certified_organic#United_States_of_America It only has to be 70% "ogranic" to be advertised as "organic". lo fucking l."

Glad you linked that video. It shows how brainwashed people are about organic anything even AFTER being told they are wrong. Especially the last part where they took a whole banana, cut it in half, and TOLD the people that one half was organic and the other was non organic, and everyone said the organic banana tasted soooooo much better.....even though it was the same banana. Even then, people STILL said they would eat organic just because.

And even though it really isnt true scientific evidence (I mean its Penn and Teller lol) it is still very true and you get the same responses from people even when you give them evidence to the contrary. Most people when asked about the milk debate site hormones as the main reason they wont drink it. But then ask them to actually name the main hormone, why they think its bad, and the actual science behind the hormone and they cant, they just read something or hear something and believe it.

Quote :

"Why would you take one sentence from an article about the concerns over american milk. Either way, if something hasn't been tested, why would you drink it? I'm not going to drink some man-made chemicals that HAVEN'T BEEN TESTED and say "o its alright, the risks have never actually been tested". I want to confirm its safe before drinking. I don't see how not confirming that its unsafe is reason to drink it. "

You do realize that IGF-1 is found naturally in cows and humans and that theres thousands of other factors that could lead to cancer or other symptoms? And in order to get the levels of IGF-1 that they were injecting rats with you would have to drink something like 300 gallons of milk PER DAY. But they dont tell you that, they just want some sort of "evidence" that its bad for you so they can go on a marketing frenzy.

7/23/2012 2:31:51 PM

IGF-1 isn't orally active either; your stomach acids rip apart the protein chain before it can get into the bloodstream. Any knock on rBGH over IGF-1 levels is fear mongering, plain and simple.

7/23/2012 10:02:26 PM

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/medical-science/infectious-diseases/topics-interest/antibiotics-antimicrobials.page

http://m.ucsusa.org/food_and_agriculture/solutions/wise_antibiotics/pamta.html

Antibiotic use in farm animals increases prevalence of microbes with resistence. Get sick from the milk and you're fucked. Granted antibiotics are organic

Most organic I've had tastes better. When the farmer competes on quality rather than price it usually results in a better product.

[Edited on July 24, 2012 at 10:01 AM. Reason : a]

7/24/2012 9:59:36 AM

organic chicken tastes markedly better than the non-organic stuff.

Organic produce is hit or miss. Locally grown produce (whether organic or not) generally tastes better than something shipped from far away. Just by letting it ripen more on the plant, you gain a lot in terms of flavor, and I'd suspect nutritional value.

7/24/2012 12:38:42 PM

I buy everything that I can organic, especially produce that doesn't have natural barrier to protect it from pesticides and insecticides, so for food like bananas, watermelon, coconuts ...etc I don't care too much if it is organic or not (I should because it still matters, but it gets very expensive).

Milk issue....Humans are the only mammals that drink milk (non-human milk at that) past infant stage. That should tell you whether we should drink it or not. I stopped few years ago drinking milk regularly, but will have occasional glass with home made crepes or brownies. Incidentally, around the same time I stopped drinking milk regularly my hay fever has almost disappeared after 20 years. Whether it is related I can't prove, but it works for me.

For now, forget hormones in the milk, the bigger issue are residual antibiotics that carry over to humans. This is the most likely reason why MRSA and other types of antibiotic resistant bacteria are emerging. Through antibiotic laden milk and meats you are administering antibiotics to millions, of course bacteria will get a surviving mutation that will eventually carry over to next generation.

I found that scallions, tomatoes, chicken (and most other meats) taste better organic. Farm raised salmon vs wild...I can't tell a difference. Same with apples. So, it's a hit or miss.
Yes, there are a lot of problems in verifying the truth whether product is certified organic, but as a consumer you only do so much. I try to buy locally raised from farmers market, but even that you are just relying that farmers are being truthful.

7/25/2012 4:38:23 AM

I buy almond milk. The only milk I drink is in coffee when there is no alternatives.

We don't need to drink milk.


/thread

[Edited on July 25, 2012 at 8:39 AM. Reason : .,]

7/25/2012 8:38:47 AM

^^organic farmers use pesticides which in many cases are more toxic than modern synthetic options. Many also use cow shit as fertilizer which comes with a host of other bacterial problems.

Quote :

"Milk issue....Humans are the only mammals that drink milk (non-human milk at that) past infant stage. That should tell you whether we should drink it or not."

You do understand that evolution is a response to environment right? There's not this magical form that is human that everyone should be. Because we're now a static, agricultural based society we will have different diets and our bodies have and continue to adapt.

Also, we're the only mammals that make cars and airplanes. I guess that should tell you whether we should do that or not. We're also the only mammals that make shitty reality tv shows. Hey I'm starting to like this fallacious argument.

Quote :

" This is the most likely reason why MRSA and other types of antibiotic resistant bacteria are emerging."

Right, it has absolutely nothing to do with the over-prescription and mis-prescription of antibiotics for viral infections, the ubiquitousness of antibiotics in soaps and detergents or any of that. It's that evil milk industry.

[Edited on July 25, 2012 at 8:57 AM. Reason : .]

7/25/2012 8:56:30 AM

^i seemed to have overlooked the fact that cars and planes are organic matter we digest. Silly me.

[Edited on July 25, 2012 at 9:07 AM. Reason : ^]

7/25/2012 9:05:17 AM

naturalistic fallacy. yawn.

V, me neither.

[Edited on July 25, 2012 at 9:14 AM. Reason : .]

7/25/2012 9:05:49 AM

Regardless for what ever silly shit you want to bring up I'm not drinking milk today.

7/25/2012 9:11:43 AM

You were right however. A much better response would have been:

We're also the only mammals that cook our food so I guess that tells you whether we should do that.

7/25/2012 12:34:01 PM

Fuck milk, fuck organic

[Edited on July 25, 2012 at 1:32 PM. Reason : ^raw dietists vs macrobiotic dietists, don't act like the book is closed]

7/25/2012 1:31:36 PM

^^ ha true

7/25/2012 2:11:55 PM

as a whole milk lover concerned about the fat content, which fake milk should i try?

im assuming soy would taste the worst. how is almund? does anything out there taste the same or quite similar?

7/26/2012 1:29:59 AM

nothing tastes similar.

almond 'milk' tastes awesome.

i also love grain 'milks', such as oat, barley, and kamut.

but really, you won't get most of the benefits of real milk with fake milk.

for me, i demand nothing other than polar milk (seal, whale, polar bear, etc). nothing like that dang 90% fat content!

7/26/2012 2:08:16 AM

Quote :

"^^organic farmers use pesticides which in many cases are more toxic than modern synthetic options. Many also use cow shit as fertilizer which comes with a host of other bacterial problems."

I always ask if they used pesticides. Most say no. You will never know for sure unless you grow your own. Real world...

Manure is the most natural and best fertilizer you can use. You are clueless.

Quote :

"You do understand that evolution is a response to environment right? There's not this magical form that is human that everyone should be. Because we're now a static, agricultural based society we will have different diets and our bodies have and continue to adapt. Also, we're the only mammals that make cars and airplanes. I guess that should tell you whether we should do that or not. We're also the only mammals that make shitty reality tv shows. Hey I'm starting to like this fallacious argument."

So we should just adopt heroin and crack like we did milk no? I mean shit comes from poppy seeds and leaves on the tree. How much more organic can it get?

Cars and airplanes?...that's probably the most retarded and by far the most disconnected analogy I have ever read.

Quote :

"Right, it has absolutely nothing to do with the over-prescription and mis-prescription of antibiotics for viral infections, the ubiquitousness of antibiotics in soaps and detergents or any of that. It's that evil milk industry."

strawman argument. i never argued that milk is the ONLY contributor, but if you take into consideration that every child drinks milk it is probably the single biggest contributor. overprescription of antibiotics is a huge problem too of course.

[Edited on July 26, 2012 at 3:16 AM. Reason : f]

7/26/2012 3:10:21 AM

one thing to remember

is the definition of pesticide. and the use of Organic pesticides.

There are plenty of organic compounds that farmers can use, like copper compounds which are just as unproven/unproven in terms of danger. Organic farmers use this stuff just as they used man made pesticides before they realized they could charge 30% more for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_sulfate#As_a_herbicide.2C_fungicide_and_pesticide

I'm not saying every Organic farmer isn't doing it right, but if your buying it from a store, most likely your still buying a mass produced commodity, and the only way to mass produce things at any level of efficiency is to spray the shit out of it.

7/26/2012 7:23:27 AM

http://almondbreeze.com/?navid=530

I drink this stuff. They have different fat contents and flavors. One of the better I've tried.

7/26/2012 8:16:26 AM