So i was fired from my job this week; I know NC is an employment at will state but i was trying to figure out if i have any ground to stand on to demand a severance package for wrongful termination. I was fired for a safety incident because management claimed they were concerned about my safety and had to let me go.

Background Facts:
- My company has had a rough fiscal year and is in the middle of a 25% Reduction in Force.
- I have had issues with my boss before even transferring to the Charlotte plant. My boss flat out told me that he didn't want me in his group when i joined (he has a bias against engineers from WL) but he was told from upper management that i was going to anyway. We have had personality issues ever since.
- Due to plant expansion (new machines built, new personnel hired) we have had a major uptick in Recordables. This had our management under the scope from the division.
- This plant is known for subjective interpretation of safety regardless of OSHA regulation or NFPA 70E guidelines (aka "oh I think this is unsafe"). This explains the next bullet.
- I was already on a "corrective action plan" for standing on chair on the production floor (I was grabbing a wire out of reach); a shift tech that i didn't get along with filed a safety incident report about me working "unsafe" after observing me do this. Prior to this, standing on a chair to reach something was standard practice especially with shift folks since the automated shuttles that carry product from the machine to the warehouse are always breaking down. I was pretty much to be made an example of, after which no one used a chair. The chair is less than 36" meaning from an OSHA standpoint, given no other present hazards, it does not fall into the "elevated platform" regulations that would otherwise make my action a code violation.

Termination Facts:
- Was fired for a safety violation revolving around "working in an electrical cabinet without using LOTO."

- I was trained and the general practice among the Senior Engineers that designed the cabinet, my colleagues, and the shift technicians was to turn off the main disconnect (480V), check the for live voltage, and do whatever troubleshooting or minor work that is needed on this device. The LOTO for this cabinet is 2 floors above, however, the disconnect is in immediate vicinity (within line of sight and arms reach) from any spot in the cabinet. Thus this was the general practice even when changing 480V fuses, contactors, etc (a NFPA 70E violation).

- According to NFPA 70E the guidelines we follow at my company any circuit that is not LOTO is supposed to be considered hot.

- The circuit I was working on this particular day was a 24V circuit outside of the Restricted Zone as defined by NFPA 70E of the 480 V circuit. The 480 was de-energized at the disconnect but not LOTO.

- NFPA 70E has specific exclusions for LOTO if the circuit is <50 V and for general troubleshooting.

- I was certified NFPA 70E by the plant, which meant that I COULD work in a HOT enclosure (aka one that was still energized). If I need to.

- At the time I was "caught" for my alleged safety violation, there were 4 other employees working on the exact same circuit on another machine. I also know that at some point they even troubleshot the wrong part and switched out a 480V contactor without using LOTO (they de-energized at the disconnect locally). A direct violation of the NFPA 70E code, management didn't seem concerned with this and last i checked these individuals were not in trouble.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:40 AM. Reason : l]

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason : l]

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason : l]

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:44 AM. Reason : l]

11/28/2012 11:39:12 AM

Companies are never required to provide a severance package. However, you do have a pretty good case against them if they try to deny your unemployment. The fact that you were already on a corrective plan won't help, though.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:43 AM. Reason : a]

11/28/2012 11:41:20 AM

I want to thank you for not exploding with rage and burning the factory to the ground like I would have in such a scenario. You are indeed a patient and kind man.

You should post the name of the company here.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

11/28/2012 11:45:17 AM

Given the lay-offs I think my boss was just trying to find a reason to fire me. I guess he ended up having to make up an alleged safety violation.

This guy is such a dick, our department (made up of 3 groups of roughly 4-5 people) had already lost 2 of other Electrical Controls engineers and 2 of our Electrical Technicians who quit. I was the only electrical controls guy left. Although we did transfer an electrical engineer contractor to the group after the lost guy left. With the hiring freeze and elimination of all contract employees by year end, i guess my boss felt he would rather have 0 controls engineers. Our Wilmington plant is not happy either because they had to start sending there folks to Charlotte to help out due to our personnel shortage.

The Largest Fiber Optics and Specialty Glass Producer in America

The company as a whole is great. The 3.5 years I spent in WL were awesome. Learned a great deal, worked with good experienced engineers, and had fulfilling projects.

The Charlotte plant, however, is just about manufacturing. They treat their engineers like poorly. We had a 3-week on-call rotation after everyone else left and was doing the job that 5 engineers handled in Wilmington as far as production support. My last on-call rotation I got called 6 out of 7 nights between 2-5 AM. Had to come in for 4 instances and there was probably a legitimate "on-call" need generously I'd claim 2. Then was expected to work the next day. If i asked me boss about leaving early he would with a smug say "sure, but remember yearly reviews are coming up"....




[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 12:10 PM. Reason : l]

11/28/2012 11:48:40 AM

Sounds like they didn't like you and were looking for an excuse to fire you.

Hopefully this will veer towards the path of not being such a gigantic douchenozzle.

11/28/2012 11:48:59 AM

Quote :

"Companies are never required to provide a severance package. However, you do have a pretty good case against them if they try to deny your unemployment. The fact that you were already on a corrective plan won't help, though."

11/28/2012 11:56:34 AM

Quote :

"Hopefully this will veer towards the path of not being such a gigantic douchenozzle. "

There is definitely an employee relations issue here.


[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 12:08 PM. Reason : k]

11/28/2012 11:56:55 AM

Youre throwin around a lot of mud, but unfortunately I would say your manner of working would be grounds for termination

just because there is some alleged disregard of safety regulation at the plant does not mean that they should be expected to just keep on being in violation.

I am not trying to troll, not trying to be an ass but your perception that your boss doesnt like you and is looking for a reason to throw you out...well, i mean you gave him an open door. So even if it were the case that he didnt like you, its not like he set you up in some elaborate fashion

and you dont seemt to get a long with anybody, maybe youre the problem

and as far as i know, a chair is not something you should be standing. If Osha walked in and saw an employee standing on a chair do you really think that would be OK? they would ask why you are not using an approved platform such as a step ladder.

and if you are working on equipment iit has gotta be locked out and clearly dsiplayed. unless I am missing something and you did all this..while basically being on probation from another safety related incident, i personally think this will be a tough one for you. Not that I am a lawyer or anything lol

either way i wish you luck, it sucks that you lost your job, hopefully you can actually prove some manner of nefarious action on the part of your employer..but I kinda dont see it based on what you are telling us

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 12:09 PM. Reason : e]

11/28/2012 12:06:33 PM

Could be worse.

11/28/2012 12:09:30 PM

lol have you ever seen the shits where loaders are liftign forklifts with bigger forklifts to but things up higher??

11/28/2012 12:10:39 PM

Quote :

"just because there is some alleged disregard of safety regulation at the plant does not mean that they should be expected to just keep on being in violation."

I agree this particular piece of machinery was designed is such a way that although inherently safe, did create a situation where following proper LOTO was such an inconvenience that it was ignored. Before my termination I had already submitted a Kaizen (look it up) and was in the process of identifying a replacement disconnect that would allow techs to properly LOTO locally.

Regardless given the facts I listed above I was not in violation of NFPA 70E nor was required to perform LOTO for what I was doing. 24V is not hot work.

Quote :

"basically being on probation "

Agreed i should have been actual careful

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 12:17 PM. Reason : l]

11/28/2012 12:14:00 PM

I'd stick my tongue on 24V.

11/28/2012 12:17:52 PM

Nope. You have absolutely zero case for wrongful termination here, and there is no way in hell you're going to get a dime from them.

NC is an employment at will state. As long as you didn't get fired for being a whistleblower, or because of discrimination, you're just screwed. They do not have to provide cause to let you go, and even if they do, it doesn't give you any sort of options.

Where their cause for termination DOES matter is if/when you apply for unemployment. And there, I would fight tooth and nail to make sure you qualify.

11/28/2012 12:52:23 PM

Use this life event as the impetus to do something bold. And I don't mean standing on a chair...or jumping off one, for that matter.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

11/28/2012 12:58:36 PM

^^

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 12:58 PM. Reason : ^^]

11/28/2012 12:58:44 PM

reading stuff like this makes me so happy I not life of folo rules.

11/28/2012 1:11:02 PM

Reading stuff like this makes me glad my position is unionized

11/28/2012 1:21:33 PM

Our WL plant is unionized but engineers are considered "management."

11/28/2012 1:38:26 PM

was the 24v off a transformer on a high voltage line?

did it have a set of 24v specific circuit breakers?

(basically was it fused at 15a @ 24v or >15a @ 480 requiring 300a + to trip on 24v?)

not like it really matters... they can fire you for no reason at all here.

the fact that they gave you a semi-valid reason of violating their safety policy (written or not)
you're still fucked..


My wife got fired for limited availability because she tore her rotator cuff and was going to xrays,mris, and eventually surgery but since they just said availability and not you're being fired because you're medically unable to work it's not against the law (per consulted lawyer)

11/28/2012 1:44:39 PM

Just for some engineering nerd talk the 24VDC came from a power supply fed from a separate 120 VAC source that was fused in another cabinet for 15A.

^ That sucks about your wife.

I don't know if it is true but there is a rumor that one of our female engineers was "encouraged" to resign because she was always taking time off to handle her 3 young kids.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 1:50 PM. Reason : l]

11/28/2012 1:48:59 PM

Quote :

"Where their cause for termination DOES matter is if/when you apply for unemployment. And there, I would fight tooth and nail to make sure you qualify."

This is pretty much what I was getting at. And after reading over the situation again, your former company could really fuck you here. It seems they have a pretty good case for termination with cause, which would give them every justification to deny your unemployment. Sure you can appeal, but even if you win it will delay your UE benefits for weeks and possibly months.

So hope that they don't deny your unemployment. If they do, be prepared to hire a lawyer.

11/28/2012 1:57:34 PM

You're only chance of salvaging anything in my mind at this point would be that you could contest the last claim, not the first one involving the chair. The chair is pretty clear cut as unsafe and in OSHA's view that is not what a chair is for no matter how else or who else used it that way before.

The last claim of working in a hot cabinet could be contested based on the facts you've put up here if they are indeed true and you can prove it by having anyone else (especially the other guys working on a cabinet if they were not against you as well) testify you were working in a zone that you were trained and authorized to do without them getting disciplinary action. This creates a possibility in the NCDOL's mind that you may have been unfairly singled out. This would lead to two scenarios IMO; the other workers are 'disciplined' at the least on paper to satisfy NCDOL or if the company could not for some reason afford to discipline them (insurance rates, publicity, etc) then they'd be willing to offer a severance package to shut you up. This will be a your word against theirs and only with some proof or testimony from a coworker that your boss has had it in for you could you get one of the above resolutions. Keep in mind any repercussions they may face from your ex company or boss by testifying on your behalf.

11/28/2012 2:04:03 PM

Does the former company pay the unemployment? Guess i am not sure how this works?

A friend of mine was unemployment for 4 months after getting fired for a drug test...


[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 2:07 PM. Reason : k]

11/28/2012 2:06:19 PM

regardless of the outcome, good luck.

11/28/2012 2:13:15 PM

^^Ahaha I saw that. We won't tell. Promise.

11/28/2012 2:16:49 PM

l o l

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

11/28/2012 2:18:07 PM

damn i missed it

11/28/2012 2:19:56 PM

Quote :

"Does the former company pay the unemployment? Guess i am not sure how this works?"

http://www.bizfilings.com/toolkit/sbg/tax-info/payroll-taxes/employer-liability-for-unemployment-taxes.aspx

Quote :

"To fund umemployment compensation benefit programs, employers are subject to federal and state unemployment taxes based on various factors. These factors include the amounts employers pay their employees, the type and age of the business, and the unemployment claims filed against the business."

It is in the best interest of a company to keep unemployment claims low, as it translates into the company paying less in unemployment taxes. Your former company may be big enough that they just say "fuck it" and let you draw unemployment without a fight. But if they want to be pricks, they can really tie you up.

11/28/2012 2:34:23 PM

i've fought it in the past, but I was small and it made a difference for me

11/28/2012 2:53:54 PM

kinda sounds like they had it out for you, and finally found an excuse to let you go.

a friend of mine works for a company that does similar work (480 and 24v in the same cabinet) and while the company promotes workplace safety in general, in actuality you won't see any PPE or lockouts used at all unless they know customers or OSHA will be visiting. they've had a few close calls, but so far no serious accidents.....

11/28/2012 2:54:38 PM

I've heard of this kinda shit at Corning before.

11/28/2012 3:20:21 PM

<---- saw "NFPA" in OP

automatically assumed thread would be derailed (sorry OP ... I dabble in 33,68,86)

11/28/2012 3:24:28 PM

Quote :

"Our WL plant is unionized but engineers are considered "management.""

That's how my job is, General Schedule 12 (my "grade") and lower are "working grade", and General Schedule 13 and higher are "management". As such, I plan on never applying for a promotion for the rest of my life

11/28/2012 3:34:05 PM

What is WL? White Lake?

11/28/2012 3:42:17 PM

I bet it's "Wilmington," actually

11/28/2012 3:44:26 PM

wait, why wasn't the conveniently-located disconnect locked out?

11/28/2012 4:29:26 PM

Quote :

"Our Wilmington plant is not happy either "

11/28/2012 4:32:07 PM

^^^^^ I've heard stories of people who got promoted just so they could be fired

11/28/2012 4:49:17 PM

is HUR the guy that got pulled over a few years back and bragged about being an engineer to the the cops? I forget

11/28/2012 5:45:39 PM

I only remember him as the racist dickhead who popped an ovary when his car got towed at the Avent Ferry Food Lion.

I can't imagine someone not wanting to work with him....

11/28/2012 6:56:56 PM

lol

11/28/2012 7:02:57 PM

I, for one, am outraged by this injustice.

11/28/2012 7:51:13 PM

i didn't post this to chit-chat for a reason....

thanks for the useful feedback from those above.

Quote :

"I only remember him as the racist dickhead who popped an ovary when his car got towed at the Avent Ferry Food Lion."

By the way this wasn't my car that got towed it was friends of mine.

11/28/2012 7:57:28 PM

USA #1

11/28/2012 10:17:47 PM

Quote :

"IT WAS FRIENDS"

11/28/2012 10:23:06 PM

You have zero case. The facts are that you did something the company did unsafe. You can't prove anything else. you were already on a corrective action plan. The company can reasonably hide behind a "we let him go because he was a safety liability."

Even if there were office politics at play, you pretty much need a videotape of him handing a signed confession to a colleague about how he is firing you for personal, unlawful reasons.


I would not waste my money or energy on suing them.

11/28/2012 10:36:36 PM

Quote :

"The facts are that you did something the company did unsafe. "

What was unsafe about what I was doing. I acted within the NFPA 70E guidelines and I was certified by the company to work in a hot (electrified) enclosure. The enclosure was in fact de-energized per how I was trained and as precedent in the factory. A shift technician who is known for hounding engineers saw me in the cabinet, wrote a safety "incident" report saying I was in the enclosure without LOTO, my boss takes this information and runs with the fact that I was unsafe at work thus grounds for termination.

As an electrical engineer whose primary purpose (since all the other electrical engineers and electrical techs quit leaving no time for actual engineering work) was to troubleshoot and fix production equipment, at some point I was going to do something that some ignorant shift worker could interpret as "unsafe." The operations department basically has a reward/bounty program for writing up safety near-misses. As a slight anecdote one of my engineering colleagues got sent home for 2-days because he picked up a broken shard of glass, that he saw on the floor from a broken floor tube that a shift worker left behind, off the floor. A shift worker saw this and wrote a "near-miss" for picking up broken glass without the "proper PPE" (aka gloves).

The company is laying off 25% of its salaried work force, my boss saw an opportunity to get +1 towards his quota.

My main concern is getting snubbed for unemployment due to being fired with cause. I also think I am going to write a letter to my allies in management in Wilmington. I worked for 3.5 years there without any disciplinary problems and only outstanding performance reviews. My mistake was transferring to the Char. plant (personal reasons) which had a reputation for its management issues and other culture problems.








[Edited on November 29, 2012 at 12:15 AM. Reason : l]

11/28/2012 11:48:06 PM

There's a lot of "If I need to" and "That ___ is far away" going on, which leads me to believe that there are grounds for the company to argue against your case.

Meaning it might be hard to get severance awarded, but do what you see fit I guess. I've always heard unemployment is easy to get if you contest it at all, on the other hand.

[Edited on November 28, 2012 at 11:56 PM. Reason : wsdf]

11/28/2012 11:55:24 PM

probably all the racist comments at work

11/29/2012 12:40:13 AM

They don't teach losing in school anymore. I can't expect people to know how to handle a loss when it's handed to them. As an American, I know it's never my fault. It's always the fault of the people above me.

11/29/2012 1:49:46 AM