http://m.newsobserver.com/observer/db_97301/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=EwCTzAsA

Quote :

"Gov. Pat McCrory said he would propose legislation to overhaul the way higher education is funded in North Carolina, putting the emphasis on job creation not liberal arts and taking specific aim at the state's flagship university. "I think some of the educational elite have taken over our education where we are offering courses that have no chance of getting people jobs," McCrory told conservative talk show host Bill Bennett, the former education secretary for President Ronald Reagan, during an interview Tuesday morning. McCrory echoed a crack the radio show host made at gender studies courses at UNC-Chapel Hill, a top tier public university. "That's a subsidized course," McCrory said, picking up the argument. "If you want to take gender studies that's fine, go to a private school and take it. But I don't want to subsidize that if that's not going to get someone a job." The Republican governor said he instructed his staff Monday to draft legislation that would change how much state money universities and community colleges receive "not based on how many butts in seats but how many of those butts can get jobs."

So not only does he want to remove liberal arts degrees, but also liberal arts courses, entirely?

"Educational elite" used as a derogatory term is laughable to anyone with half a brain.

1/29/2013 10:56:01 AM

Start by selling NC STATE to a company that knows how to turn profits

1/29/2013 11:10:25 AM

^I think NCSU would benefit far more under this funding that UNC. CHASS might eat it, but other then that, the university is turning out employable graduates. Whole sections of campus at UNC could be empty. I'm sure those Peace, War & Defense majors are making bank at Starbucks though.

1/29/2013 11:22:01 AM

Education is about providing recruits for the "armies" of business as they fight to protect america. I think they should pitch it like that. Having liberal arts classes be only at private schools is fine. Poor students should want jobs and money, and only people with money already should be allowed to waste their time. We cant allow poor people to waste their time in the sort of classes that teach hatred of businesses. This is a good solution for the poor.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM. Reason : zzzzzz]

1/29/2013 11:31:16 AM

Excellent!

This fellow just keeps getting better and better.

1/29/2013 11:33:40 AM

When did "how much money can I amass" become the measure of a life's worth?

1/29/2013 11:35:09 AM

When you were born into 20th century America.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM. Reason : -]

1/29/2013 11:37:08 AM

I agree with this...although, i'm not sure all these courses should be removed entirely.

1/29/2013 11:40:20 AM

Make the schools pay for the facilities housing these courses out of pocket.

Dont let student loans cover courses like this unless theyre privately held.

Simple.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM. Reason : -]

1/29/2013 11:46:53 AM

I could also get with that...but it's probably going to take a student loan bubble collapse for any changes like that, and even then it'll probably just cause student loans to be harder to get across the board.

1/29/2013 11:49:54 AM

Thats not really that far fetched. There is a thread regarding that very thing somewhere...

1/29/2013 11:52:34 AM

While I understand the need for relevant degrees as they apply to the demands of the workforce, shutting out a well rounded education is a terrible idea. What we end up with is what George Carlin suggested those at the top want. People smart enough to be obedient workers and run the machines but too dumb to ask questions.

1/29/2013 12:06:59 PM

I gotta give conservatives a lot of credit. They've got some fuckin' balls, man.

They go full boar with their agenda of protecting old money, and then turn around and accuse anyone who oppose them as trying to force a "liberal agenda."

It's fucking beautiful in its simplicity.


Why stop at eliminating liberal arts from colleges? Let's start at elementary schools. Just teach the poor and working class students how to turn cranks, punch numbers, and fight wars.

1/29/2013 12:41:56 PM

Identify those not cut out for higher education early enough and you could at least guarantee them a job/money.

Instead of guidance counselors telling them they can be anything, and by anything I mean a doctor or lawyer, and then they end up in school on our dime majoring in nothing.

Supporting such "opportunities" is not righteous in the least. I believe Germany (for one) does exactly this. Puts people in the right place according to their abilities, period.

State funding allocated accordingly.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ...and maybe liberals should be better at consolidating power when they have it.]

1/29/2013 12:50:04 PM

Quote :

"Q: When did "how much money can I amass" become the measure of a life's worth?"

Quote :

"A: When you were born into 20th century America."

What a sad, bleak and unsustainable mentality. No wonder people aren't living fulfilled lives...

1/29/2013 12:50:09 PM

It's called reality.

Welcome.

1/29/2013 12:50:58 PM

Not particularly. The perpetual need to acquire material wealth as a measure of prosperity and fulfillment only makes us a slave to our possessions....

Quote :

"Supporting such "opportunities" is not righteous in the least. I believe Germany (for one) does exactly this. Puts people in the right place according to their abilities, period. State funding allocated accordingly."

Sounds a lot like "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" . . .

1/29/2013 12:53:40 PM

Explain the merits of some poor Joe going to school on the taxpayer's dime to end up with idk, an Associate's degree in History and no teaching certificate?

Or taking some classes on Stained Glass windows?

Is society better because he's just doing something? Is it really too much for society to ask for something in return? Contribute back?

Or are we just continuing this blank check mindset? That's completely fine if you just fess up to it. It's no secret that there are plenty of people on this board that place absolutely zero value on money. If that's the case and this worthless thing can be turned into some art knowledge then that's a net win right?

I'm really not trying to be an ass... I just want an honest explanation as to what these students end up contributing. You can't deny their existence.

1/29/2013 12:59:26 PM

Quote :

"Instead of guidance counselors telling them they can be anything, and by anything I mean a doctor or lawyer, and then they end up in school on our dime majoring in nothing."

Todays Guidance Counselor: "You can be anything"

Conservatives Guidance Counselor: "You can be three things"

1/29/2013 12:59:38 PM

you people make it sound like people will be assigned an occupation at birth...everyone will still be free to pursue whatever studies they would like, it would help just combat the bloating tuition costs at the public institutions.

But you can expect the universities to fight hard to keep the gravy train rolling with rhetoric like the above.

1/29/2013 1:01:19 PM

Quote :

"Todays Guidance Counselor: "You can be anything" Conservatives Guidance Counselor: "You can be three things""

I don't think this statement is unreasonable. If you want to use the taxpayer's dime to fund your future then you should be able to demonstrate your ability to make it worth the taxpayer's while.

Especially in the midst of a recession...

You can still be anything or major in anything, but like most things in life if you want it to be fun or deeply fulfilling then you have to pay for it yourself.

1/29/2013 1:06:34 PM

Of course this is Art Pope speaking through McCrory.

1/29/2013 1:10:02 PM

Quote :

"Explain the merits of some poor Joe going to school on the taxpayer's dime to end up with idk, an Associate's degree in History and no teaching certificate?"

Do you watch movies, read books, listen to music, enjoy history, support abstract thought, etc? Liberal arts requires more talent and more luck to succeed than most other majors. While every person who studies history won't get a job in their field, it's important that they be given the chance, or you won't discover the best.

Universities also promote the spread of ideas and allow for the collaboration of intelligent people. Kind of important.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2013 1:31:32 PM

The market is flooded with 4 year graduates. There aren't enough high paying jobs for all of them. At least the liberal arts grads tend to accept their fate behind the counter at Starbucks and become somewhat productive. The subpar STEM majors go back to mom's house and send out resumes for the jobs they will never get.

1/29/2013 1:37:00 PM

Anyone who is dumb enough to think they're an artist can go to another state.

Quote :

"You can still be anything or major in anything, but like most things in life if you want it to be fun or deeply fulfilling then you have to pay for it yourself."

this helps poor kids by making sure they don't major in stupid things like arts

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 1:48 PM. Reason : x]

1/29/2013 1:47:23 PM

What would you consider "subpar" STEM majors?


Because while we're at it, we should just get rid of them too. Let's all sign up to be corporate whores whose one directive is material consumption to prove how "worthy" we are to society. Don't bother learning history. That way it's easier for it to repeat itself (1880s...)

1/29/2013 1:48:06 PM

I'd argue that the 2.0 GPA engineering major be redirected into something like history so at least his college experience can be somewhat fulfilling. An engineer who cant build a bridge is a total waste.

1/29/2013 1:54:02 PM

while i somewhat agree with this notion, i don't think liberal arts should be entirely removed from curriculums. college is meant to give kids a broad education beyond just the classes that they'll use at a job later on.

isn't community colleges for strictly focusing on jobs and nothing else?

1/29/2013 1:58:17 PM

Quote :

"I'd argue that the 2.0 GPA engineering major be redirected into something like history so at least his college experience can be somewhat fulfilling. An engineer who cant build a bridge is a total waste."

Fair enough. I was just curious to see if you had a particular list of STEM majors that you felt weren't "good enough". Not to be confrontational, just curious.

I agree about the Community College thing. While we all know that conservatives hate higher education that doesn't come from Liberty University (is it really considered higher education in their case?), but instead of being intentionally antagonistic, thus causing their sheep (willy0 and his ilk) to salivate, they should put more focus on job training through the community college system if all they want are corporate drones.

1/29/2013 2:04:51 PM

The sense of entitlement shown in this thread is ridiculous. If you can't pay for something that has very little value (lib arts degree) then you shouldn't do it.

1/29/2013 2:47:48 PM

Art, history, political science, and literature are all worth learning about. Are those subjects worth going into debt to learn about? That's a tough(er) sell that say, STEM, which is actually likely to provide a person with skills needed to land a high paying job.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ]

1/29/2013 2:49:43 PM

^^I agree, but I'm more concerned about eliminating lib art classes from all college curriculums. I think a college education should include a broad education, including lib arts, in addition to classes that focus on your major.


[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 2:56 PM. Reason : ]

1/29/2013 2:55:16 PM

Quote :

"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. --- John Adams"

Tangential? Sure, but the overt way at which McCrony is attacking the "academic elites" is insulting and will ultimately harm our state.

1/29/2013 2:58:32 PM

I definitely agree that a well rounded education is important. I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

1/29/2013 3:06:32 PM

Quote :

"The sense of entitlement shown in this thread is ridiculous. If you can't pay for something that has very little value (lib arts degree) then you shouldn't do it."

Care to respond to my post above? Liberal arts have tremendous value to society as a whole.

1/29/2013 3:12:53 PM

I dont think anyone in this thread is talking about the elimination of these classes. Even at the community college level you have your core curriculum and a certain number of electives to satisfy.

This goes for ALL students except those simply obtaining a certificate.

I think what we are mainly focusing on here are people that MAJOR in useless things.

Nobody is arguing that these classes are completely useless... On the contrary many good points have been made here regarding a well-rounded education.

An education might not be well-rounded if you entirely focus on an engineering profession, but assuming demand is high at least you're guaranteed a job.

Focusing completely on something like History isnt exactly well-rounded either, and what are you supposed to become then? With a teaching certificate you can teach history, but without at least a Master's degree you are truly completely useless to society and have crushing student loans. Even with the teaching certificate I imagine those jobs aren't going to be too easy to come by unless you also happen to coach Baseball.

The sense of entitlement in this thread is indeed ridiculous. Comments like this:

Quote :

"While we all know that conservatives hate higher education that doesn't come from Liberty University"

...are hilarious in their hypocrisy when they continue on to call people like me "sheep." As if comments like ^this (ripped straight from Comedy Central "news") dont expose the "sheep" from the other side of the argument. Oh you're so clever sir to assume I advocate religiously themed colleges simply because I'm conservative!

My aim was never to be antagonistic. Everything ive said so far is only antagonistic if you live in a dream-world or are unwilling to face the stark (financial) reality of our current world as it pertains to education.

1/29/2013 3:14:05 PM

If someone goes to college pursuing a degree that they can't see themselves making a sustainable, livable wage with, then why would they do it?

I've known that I wanted to work in weather/outdoors since I was in Charlotte in 1987 during hurricane Hugo, but I couldn't imagine saying in high school, "I want to go to college because [family member] says I should, and studying Russian literature is surely going to open up lots of career options!"

1/29/2013 3:17:01 PM

When people talk about why they want to go to college, it's to get a better life. A better life takes money, money takes an in-demand job. That's what college should be focused on.

Quote :

"Do you watch movies, read books, listen to music, enjoy history, support abstract thought, etc?"

Plenty of people write books, music, etc. without a degree in it.

Quote :

"I'd argue that the 2.0 GPA engineering major be redirected into something like history so at least his college experience can be somewhat fulfilling. An engineer who cant build a bridge is a total waste."

Why should their "fulfilling" college experience be subsidized? If they can't be an engineer, fine, not everyone is cut out for it, but that history degree isn't going to help them be a better salesman or barista any more than flunking out of engineering.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 3:21 PM. Reason : ]

1/29/2013 3:19:43 PM

OK, well I agree that someone who wants to get a major in a lib arts major that statically will not lead to a real job should have to pay for it themselves, and should not get student loands, scholarships, etc. to do it.

But some of McCrory's comments seem to take aim at liberal arts courses, not just majors, and that's scary.

Quote :

""I think some of the educational elite have taken over our education where we are offering courses that have no chance of getting people jobs," McCrory told conservative talk show host Bill Bennett"

1/29/2013 3:22:02 PM

Quote :

"Plenty of people write books, music, etc. without a degree in it."

Yep, and the vast majority of them draw from the pool of liberal arts knowledge that originates in universities.

It's complete absurdity that we benefit so much from arts and entertainment, but don't want to subsidize it because people can't fathom how there is more to it than direct monetary return.


[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM. Reason : .]

1/29/2013 3:32:12 PM

Quote :

"OK, well I agree that someone who wants to get a major in a lib arts major that statically will not lead to a real job should have to pay for it themselves, and should not get student loands, scholarships, etc. to do it."

Why do you care? Why should they NOT get a scholarship? If someone gets a scholarship to study history, and that's what they want to do, then who are you to stop them? And if they want to get student loans that they are going to have to pay back, then why are you stopping them? That's their decision, and you're really in no position to impede on that, morally, or ethically.

God, I hate these threads. It's always where NC State engineers come in and turn their noses down on every degree that isn't the one they got and make tired jokes about them all being Baristas at Starbucks.

1/29/2013 3:40:36 PM

Quote :

"Plenty of people write books, music, etc. without a degree in it."

The vast majority of them also probably have a real job in the meantime to fund their endeavor. You cant count on the supposed success of your literature to fund your life.

It might have worked for JK Rowling, as I recall she was unemployed when she wrote Harry Potter (or maybe she was a waitress trying to make ends meet at the time)?

But the problem is we arent all JK Rowling and we shouldnt be encouraging folks to put all their eggs in that basket just because maybe they will have fun or become a billionaire.

If college or finding a job was 100% all about fun then we would all major in photography and work for Playboy (or something). You have to find that happy medium of success/fun/longevity.

I dont advocate people torturing themselves with some mindless desk job that they hate just in order to make a living either. Im certain in my mind that there is a field/job for everyone where they can achieve the best balance of happiness and success (dependent on their natural abilities). It might not make them the happiest, it might not lead to the most wealth, but it averages the two together the best.

It seems the people being condemned the most in this thread (and rightfully so) are those completely focused on fluttering through college like the happiest little butterfly with no sense of concern about the future. Likewise to hell with the guy who buries himself in the computer lab until 3am trying to be the next Bill Gates.

The conservative idea that McCrory *just might* be trying to advocate here is the fact that the Bill Gates type fellow might be a little more handy when it comes to the state economy. Again, these economic times cant afford all the beautiful butterflies.

1/29/2013 3:41:40 PM

Quote :

"Why do you care? Why should they NOT get a scholarship? If someone gets a scholarship to study history, and that's what they want to do, then who are you to stop them?"

because it's my tax money, and 10 of thousands of tax payers dollars shouldn't be used to go towards something that is going to have little to no benefit for anyone.

why don't you set up your own scholarpship where you can give your money to poor kids who want to major in areas that won't benefit them at all in the job market? I'd have no problem with that.

1/29/2013 3:43:51 PM

If a kid is smart and promising enough to earn a scholarship, then you really have no idea what he or she will do with that education. You also have absolutely no idea what jobs will be in high demand when that kid graduates. And on top of that, you have no idea if that kid will use that scholarship to innovate the next big industry that will create demand for future jobs.

1/29/2013 3:47:29 PM

Quote :

"why don't you set up your own scholarpship where you can give your money to poor kids who want to major in areas that won't benefit them at all in the job market? I'd have no problem with that."

Dude, these types of scholarships already exist.

1/29/2013 3:48:27 PM

I realize that, and like I said, I'm all for it.

1/29/2013 3:50:57 PM

Then what, specifically, are you bitching about?

1/29/2013 3:51:30 PM

Quote :

"Why do you care? Why should they NOT get a scholarship? If someone gets a scholarship to study history, and that's what they want to do, then who are you to stop them? And if they want to get student loans that they are going to have to pay back, then why are you stopping them? That's their decision, and you're really in no position to impede on that, morally, or ethically. "

I have no problem with them getting privately funded scholarships. Maybe some old hag wants to give out some cash in honor of her son (who majored in something useless) that got killed in a car accident? I could care less.

The state should invest in people that end up helping the state. Simple as that. I'm sorry, but we do have the ability to pull the plug on these people and we did when we elected a red state government. I'm stopping them because they are a boat anchor. They get out of school with a huge amount of debt that they never intended to pay back. To defend such a thing with an argument based in "morals" is laughable.

They always intended to live a life of free expression and sticking it to the man, but what that really means is living on welfare.

[Edited on January 29, 2013 at 3:52 PM. Reason : -]

1/29/2013 3:51:52 PM

Quote :

"If a kid is smart and promising enough to earn a scholarship, then you really have no idea what he or she will do with that education. You also have absolutely no idea what jobs will be in high demand when that kid graduates. And on top of that, you have no idea if that kid will use that scholarship to innovate the next big industry that will create demand for future jobs."

Statistically speaking, I know that someone who gets a degree in african american studies or history is going to have a really hard time getting a real job. all i'm saying is that tax-payers' money should not be used for scholarships for statistically useless scholarships. however, I'm all for liberal arts majors being offered, and for liberal arts classes being required for all college majors.

1/29/2013 3:53:21 PM

Quote :

"Then what, specifically, are you bitching about?"

tax-payers' money being used for people to get statistically useless lib art degrees.

1/29/2013 3:55:23 PM