To make a long story short, I interviewed for a job today that is an entry level position at a Land Grading/Stream Mitigation company. The job will start out operating equipment and being a laborer, while training to move into a Project Manager position. The owner that I interviewed with said he is growing so fast and with such force he simply has to have more project managers to help take the load off him so he can bid on more jobs. He's found a niche market that is making him a ton of money, in turn also making the project managers a ton of money.

He told me that the position will train me to be a project manager, and how quickly I move into the position depends on how quickly I show my skills and impress management. He mentioned between 2-6 months is when he wants someone to fill a PM position. Said the guy he hired last year straight out of school is now an assistant project manager and is now moving to full project manager in less than a year (going from hourly to salary and about double pay).

I'm a little leery of taking a job with a promise to move up. He can tell me that till he's blue in the face, but I have no way to prove it. Basically I was applying for superintendent positions, not an entry level shovel operator. I dont have a problem with work, but I also dont want to go backwards in my job either instead of moving forwards. Also cant afford to go backwards in pay either.

[Edited on July 22, 2013 at 9:48 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2013 9:47:24 PM

Quote :

"Also cant afford to go backwards in pay either. "

There is your answer.

7/22/2013 10:17:03 PM

i'd stay the fuck away from this

7/22/2013 11:13:25 PM

Sounds like he's promising you the world, just in order to be able to underpay you. A little sketch in my book.

^ +1

Dude, if he can't pay you what you're worth, fuck him.

7/22/2013 11:19:56 PM

if he's growing so fast that he needs project managers, then he's growing so fast that he needs tons of low-paid operators. Also, niche markets that make tons of money get saturated with competition fast. Don't get hoodwinked into this.

7/22/2013 11:56:37 PM

Our company does the same thing for new entry level hires that will eventually be working independently in their 'territory' by making them sit and learn in our HQ for anywhere between a few months to a year until they demonstrate they can truly work independently outside our office. I'm all for it as they learn the inside shit work that they will eventually have to get someone else to do for them so they can comprehend and be appreciative about our culture/work processes/products/etc. and not screw up any projects with our customers before they get to be reliable.

Its worked out fairly well but granted its not starting as a true laborer role like your situation. Ask if you can talk to the other guy who supposedly has moved up after serving his time but like everyone else said be wary. If its a smaller company I can definitely see why the owner doesnt want a newbie hire potentially fucking up a project because the hire didnt know/pick up the normal duties or industry standards (just ASSuming here). At least thats what I'd do if I were in the owners shoes and had some ethics not to just use you for labor. Alternatively I could also see a slimeball owner using you as smart cheap help too but YMMV.

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 12:29 AM. Reason : .]

7/23/2013 12:23:21 AM

^Thats kinda what this guy said. Said he has hired PM's before without working them up, and it didnt work out that well with the other workers (not respecting them or something). Said starting from the bottom up and getting experience with every aspect of the job allows the PM's to better understand every aspect of the stream construction.

That being said, its extremely easy to say that. I told him what I'd have to make, and if he cant pay me that even as an entry level operator, I'm walking away. If he can pay me that, I'm willing to take a shot on trying to move up.

7/23/2013 7:33:14 AM

The tutoring center I worked for pulled this BS on me, then when I asked about those promised raises they complained they were paying too much in rent. I left.

7/23/2013 8:34:36 AM

my current job i took 2 years ago, the guy said "keep in there, and you'll see promotions"

needless to say, i still do the same thing i did 2 years ago. I talked with him the other day and he said "keep in there, you'll see promotions"

7/23/2013 8:41:47 AM

An army recruiter once told me that I'd make sergeant in 24 months.

7/23/2013 9:09:02 AM

Quote :

"Said the guy he hired last year straight out of school is now an assistant project manager and is now moving to full project manager in less than a year (going from hourly to salary and about double pay)."

While I know this was said as some encouragement to you in terms of a "success" story, to me it rings an alarm bell. Depending on the industry, any company who makes someone a a full project manager less than a year out of school is a little sketch or mismanaged to me...

I completely agree that most of the best PMs I've worked for came from the bottom up, but they don't do that in <1 year unless it is some extremely simplified process or the term "project manager" doesn't mean much at that company.

[Edited on July 23, 2013 at 9:22 AM. Reason : ]

7/23/2013 9:19:32 AM

This actually worked out well for me at my last job. Started out making $8 an hour + commissions as a retail sales rep. Within 6 months I was the Store Manager. Within a year I was the Regional Manager over Greensboro and Charlotte.

But it was definitely a gamble, and I didn't actually take the job expecting to move up. It was more to help pay the bills while I searched for another job, but it ended up working out as the highest paying job I have ever had. Then they eliminated my position.

7/23/2013 9:19:48 AM

Ok, the owner of the company offered me the position. He said it would be starting out at an hourly rate for 50hrs per week, with an evaluation at 60 days for advancement. The starting pay he offered me is actually a little over what I told him my minimum was.

With the possibility of advancement actually put in writing in the offer, and the higher starting pay, I'm feeling pretty good about taking the position

7/23/2013 5:26:27 PM

I realize this thread is about shady interviewer promises....which I plan to recount below. Hear me out, maybe I can offer some insight.

I am in outside sales, which is currently salary+commission, but will move into straight commission starting at the beginning of August 2013. I have been in this position since July 2012. I have competition from several direct manufacturing sales reps, large distributors, and local distributors. Here are the advantages and disadvantages of each:

Direct Advantages: Immediate knowledge of new technology, no middle man mark up, one shipping bill (paid by manufacturer or buyer of goods), access to larger range of non-commodity items, control inventory, have access to many distributors that can effectively sell their goods which increases market share, and set prices of commodity they manufacture.

Direct disadvantages: Typically have 1-3 sales reps per region (i.e. southeast, mid-atlantic, northeast, etc.) limiting the number of accounts they can successfully manage/cold-call, lack physical customer service or physical technical service available to or affordable for smaller users or altogether, are sometimes not trustworthy because they will go in behind their distributors that sell their commodity to one account in large quantities (i.e. they missed a big account, and have found out about it through a distributor selling their particular product) which leads to the distributor not selling their product anymore, have too many distributors selling the product ultimately driving the set price down through deviations, possibly rely on distributors to actually sell the product, and competition from other direct sources.

Large distributor advantages: have access to other commodities that go hand in hand with other manufacturers (poor example- grocery stores sell milk as well as cereal), get direct pricing, many locations regionally or nationally easing the shipping burden of buyers with multiple locations, personal service either customer or technical, many sales reps that are able to cover a broader territory, access to multiple manufacturers of the same commodity allowing to keep prices in check, service programs that smaller companies can't offer and direct providers can't match in price or value, and experts of many many commodities as opposed to one or a few.

Large distributor disadvantages: smaller local distributors creating price wars (think Michael Scott Paper Co vs Dunder-Mifflin), direct mfg's going in behind and stealing business, limited access to all of the mfg's (you won't find Harris Teeter name brands in Food Lion and visa versa), can't truly set prices because it's based on both supply and demand, territory management, and tough growth prospects in slower economies (this is true for direct as well really)

Local distributor advantages: Typically a good ol' boy setting where the seller and the buyer know each other for years (this does happen at all levels, but mostly at the local level), local folks are right down the street and can be used in emergencies, if the local guy buys at high enough volumes then there is no shipping charge to the end user, and access to both direct mfg's and large distributors.

Local distributor disadvantages: easily beaten in price, array of commodities, array of technology, lack of trained staff, low cash flow, etc etc etc.

This is what I have noticed in my six months, I am sure there are plenty more that need mentioning. The way I am setting myself apart as a sales person is this: I go after the big accounts right now while I am new. The big accounts, if I land them, will take care of me while I am new and building a customer base. The money made off of those allows me to focus free time on smaller accounts that get me higher margins. I build up big accounts, I would like to have 5-10 of these, then get 20-30 medium accounts. If I lose 1 or 2 big accounts, the 20-30 medium accounts keep me afloat while I go after new big accounts. I don't really waste time on small accounts simply because they basically pay for breakfast or something really small.

I will say this, if you can't get a big account in the first 6-8 months (assuming you have cash flow that you can ride this long) you could be in a world of trouble. If you can get one, it will really make going after the others a lot more enjoyable and less stressful. It's simply just very exhausting wasting any time on anything other than big accounts in the very beginning. You work just as hard on the medium sized accounts and see 1/3 to 1/36 of the money in my situation.

If you have any other questions, you can PM me. I hope this helps in the slightest!

7/23/2013 9:55:03 PM

^^Sounds good, but unless it's a contract in writing especially about the 60 day eval for advancement I still wouldn't go for it.

7/24/2013 12:46:32 AM

Brandon1 Are you still gonna keep your business on the side? Could you ever expand if you had the investment to advertise/expand/hire/train? Sounds like you were very good at what you did with the detailing.

7/24/2013 1:56:06 AM

^Yes I am keeping my business on the side. One of my good friends who has worked with me is going to keep running the business, only a day or two per week. He's just as good as I am, but we have some details to work out. I'll let him schedule, do the work, get the materials, in exchange for 70% of the profits. I'll keep 30% because its my name and business.

That way should I ever need to go back to detailing, it is still an option.

7/24/2013 6:41:32 AM

i fell for a similar experience right after i graduated and was job-searching. a pharmaceutical company, i will leave nameless, came to me with an option to be hired as a technician and then progress into the engineering department as i learned the equipment and processes, etc. it all sounded wonderful and since i had no other prospects at that time i agreed to it. well, long story short i got bamboozled. i was given the run-around constantly when i inquired about the engineering aspects, given no direction on how i would progress into the engineering department, and to make matters worse i never even met any of the engineers. every time i set up a meeting/appointment to sit down with them, something would come up and they'd have to cancel or postpone. after my last attempt, i walked right into HR's office and told them i would finish out the shift and i'm done, i'm not coming back. they then had the balls to try to work with me and get the engineering manager on the phone and have a sit-down meeting later that day. nope, sorry charlie, i'm out.

juts have to be wary of having the world promised to ya and while it's not the same for you, it sill reminds me of what i went through. buyer beware.

7/24/2013 8:32:02 AM

Quote :

"I completely agree that most of the best PMs I've worked for came from the bottom up, but they don't do that in <1 year unless it is some extremely simplified process or the term "project manager" doesn't mean much at that company."

this was my main thought

also, for equipment operators I only make money when they are operating that equipment. I don't really want them to do anything else except use the equipment to make money. I'll make exceptions for superintendents/supervisors who are experienced equipment operators, but even then it turns into a tug-of-war between their responsibilities. I don't hire project managers as equipment operators because I want an equipment operator to only be operating equipment, and that means they aren't going to be getting a lot of exposure and learning the things they need to be a project manager. If you want to be a project manager you should look for a position as an estimator, assistant project manager, or project engineer and move into it through that track; that's how a good company is going to train their project managers.

7/24/2013 8:33:44 AM

Keyword:

possibility of advancement

7/24/2013 8:35:03 AM

Keyword

"promise"

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

7/24/2013 9:53:35 AM

Quote :

"Ok, the owner of the company offered me the position. He said it would be starting out at an hourly rate for 50hrs per week, with an evaluation at 60 days for advancement. The starting pay he offered me is actually a little over what I told him my minimum was. With the possibility of advancement actually put in writing in the offer, and the higher starting pay, I'm feeling pretty good about taking the position"

just because he's the owner doesn't mean he'll hold to what he says...in fact, i'd probably go so far as to say that the owner would be more willing fudge than someone in middle management

that said, it's entirely possible (and perhaps likely...you know the field better than we do) that he's being sincere and honest...and in that case, it could be a great opportunity to get in early

i'd say to go with your gut...if you think the guy is honest, sincere, and competent (ie. he's not overestimating his company's current and potential business)...and the salary isn't a deal-breaker where it is right now (assuming no advancement)...go for it

just don't make the mistake that a lot of people make by trying to talk yourself into it...there's something to be said for stability and low risk

7/24/2013 11:03:33 AM

Well I went with my gut like ^ said, I took the job. It *seems* like the owner is genuine, its a small company, and from some feedback I got from other people that know the company...sounds like it is indeed growing as fast as he says it is (I did do some checking around).

If all else fails, the job makes me more money than what I make now, and it looks good on my resume.

7/24/2013 2:34:17 PM

So is it or is it not going backwards in pay?

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

7/24/2013 3:05:30 PM

^ sounds like it's the same, if not higher:

Quote :

"The starting pay he offered me is actually a little over what I told him my minimum was."

7/24/2013 3:22:02 PM

Yeah its about $8k per year higher than what I make now.

7/24/2013 3:25:00 PM

^^^

Read the very last sentence before your post, champ.

7/24/2013 5:03:08 PM

Yeah, you've got no I thing to lose, if they agree to pay you, and put that there will be a promotion after the evaluation period.

I would ask for a salary for the promotion, in advance though... Unless that is what you are getting immediately.

7/24/2013 10:20:17 PM

Yeah its hourly at first, then I think it goes to salary if I move up.

7/24/2013 10:22:31 PM

But you're getting rate * ~50 right now.... Right? When you're salaried are you getting the same rate *40?

For example, you may make 500/wk now, when youre salaried will you get 400 with no overtime?

[Edited on July 24, 2013 at 10:27 PM. Reason : .]

7/24/2013 10:26:11 PM

He has mentioned that with the project manager job comes a pretty nice increase in salary with the salary position. I'm assuming that's true.

7/24/2013 10:36:41 PM

That's good. I'd like that in writing, but seeing how the new hourly wage is higher than your status quo, its not a big gamble.

Good luck with it

7/24/2013 10:56:41 PM

yeah, if he's getting paid more than what he was making, it's a lateral move at worse. he may end up hating his job and waste a year of his life hoping things pan out, but he can always try and find another job at that point

7/24/2013 11:01:51 PM

^^Thanks

^ My thoughts exactly.

7/24/2013 11:06:32 PM

What went wrong?

8/30/2013 6:25:09 PM

I got an offer recently with a promise to move up - but the initial salary was so god damn insulting I didn't even try to negotiate

8/30/2013 6:33:49 PM

I'd be curious to see how this is working out, too.

8/31/2013 5:39:48 PM

The hours were a little longer than I thought (60hrs vs 50) and the drive was longer than I expected. I was leaving at 6:00am, driving an hour, working 12hrs, driving an hour, and getting home at 8:00pm.

Job was cool, money was *decent*, workers and supervisors were awesome, but it was more time than I was expecting.

I left with an offer to return at any point in time, so the owner completely understood and didnt blame me.

9/1/2013 3:50:23 PM

Shit, sucks to hear that. Those are rough hours, for sure.

9/1/2013 9:04:17 PM

Those are fucking brutal hours, even without the hour drive each way.

9/1/2013 10:26:26 PM

Damn, I had a job like that a few years ago - I lasted about 3 months before giving up

[Edited on September 1, 2013 at 11:32 PM. Reason : ]

9/1/2013 11:32:16 PM

I did that for 11 months in 2011-12. I swear that took 5 years off of my life.

9/2/2013 5:22:30 AM

I told the guy after the first week the hours just weren't for me, and I'd rather tell him now before he sank any more money and time into me for training. I told him I'd stay as long as he needed to find someone else, and he appreciated that.

Kinda sucks though, I did like the job, and there was intentions of moving me up. Sad thing is, the project managers seemed to stay longer on the job every day than the laborers do.

9/2/2013 8:29:42 AM

you can't pay rent on promises son.

For real, get that shit in writing or move on. 4.5 years ago I took a job on the promise that I"d move up once I got my M.Sc. Well I got it, and I'm in the same damn position, with no raise, for over 3 years.

So my advice? Fuck that noise.

9/2/2013 9:31:16 AM

The promise is typically, in reality, that there is a chance you will move up ... and is directly related to your proven performance, potential, and then business need. If they don't need someone at the next level (or have the funds to support it), then you wont get it.

Loyalty is overrated (says someone who has stayed at the same company since graduation - 7 years now - though I do so not for pay/opportunity - but because it fits my long term plan best).

9/3/2013 9:24:13 AM

With the commute and all I can understand you getting burned out some working 60 hrs and then having another 10 driving each week, but shit people, there are not many jobs that are 40-50 hrs anymore. I work 11 hrs each day and pretty much 1-2 weekends every month as a salaried manager and none of that includes all the phone calls and emails that happen after hours. You got to be willing to work to be successful.

9/3/2013 3:47:47 PM

Quote :

"there are not many jobs that are 40-50 hrs anymore."

That's not true.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06302/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Gradual_decrease_in_working_hours

[Edited on September 3, 2013 at 4:36 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2013 4:08:26 PM

So many people feel like its a badge of honor to work that many hours; fuck that, i don't work that many hours.

9/3/2013 4:26:15 PM

^
Or they begrudgingly accept it. Again, fuck that. I'll find a new job.

9/3/2013 4:37:08 PM

^^^ Just gotta know where to look. But yeah. A lot of jobs are 40+hrs these days.

My job rotates between 30hrs/wk and 40hrs/wk every other month, and I'm a full time salaried employee w/benefits.

I <3 my job.

[Edited on September 3, 2013 at 4:48 PM. Reason : .]

9/3/2013 4:47:34 PM