I think it's safe to say that electric cars are the future.

My question is what type of fuel source? Seems like the "traditional" automakers are going hydrogen, the Tesla's and Leafs are plugins, which is good for early adopters.

I would assume it wouldn't be too difficult to refit a battery vehicle with a fuel cell, almost nothing would have to change in the drivetrain? I was also thinking, as an apartment dweller, it would be nearly impossible to own a plugin electric vehicle. Even if the complex installed a charger, what happens when more people get the vehicles? I don't see them being able to install enough chargers, and there's the billing problem (easy enough to solve though). And assuming a reasonable percentage of people get plugin electrics, what would have to change in our power grid? Could it even support this? Seems like it'd be a net loss in being green, if coal plants were built to meet demand.

Hydrogen solves the charging problem, gives the traditional energy companies a new fuel to sell, and seems like an easier transition from gas for the gas station infrastructure/ecosystem.

Otoh, if I lived in a house, I could see installing a bank of solar panels, mostly to keep an electric vehicle charged.

1/9/2014 1:07:53 AM

Quote :

"I think it's safe to say that electric cars are the future."

Many people won't like to believe this, but I think the technology is finally here. There will be always room for ICE/hybrid powered cars, but numbers of plug-inelectric vehicles are sure to rise to a meaningful level within the next decade.

Quote :

"I was also thinking, as an apartment dweller, it would be nearly impossible to own a plugin electric vehicle. Even if the complex installed a charger, what happens when more people get the vehicles? I don't see them being able to install enough chargers, and there's the billing problem (easy enough to solve though)."

What happens is that you or the apartment complex pay for installation of the extra charging ports (the actual chargers are on board of the vehicles). Quick charge outlets are more challenging to install, but 120v overnight chargers should be no issue.

Read the Tesla and the Volt thread in the Garage. We have at least one Volt Owner and possibly a soon-to-be Tesla owner on this board.

Quote :

"Otoh, if I lived in a house, I could see installing a bank of solar panels, mostly to keep an electric vehicle charged."

Unless you are home all day (work from home or work elsewhere at night), you have you PV system plugged into grid, or you have massive battery bank installed at your house, this won't be very useful.

[quote]Hydrogen solves the charging problem, gives the traditional energy companies a new fuel to sell, and seems like an easier transition from gas for the gas station There needs to be a reason to develop hydrogen infrastructure, when expanding the electric infrastructure while keeping some of the existing gas/diesel infrastructure would be much cheaper. More manufacturers would have to go hydrogen route for this to happen. Right now the only committed manufacturer is Toyota, AFAIK. The biggest barrier is the cost of fuel cells, which require a significant amount of platinum, although that may change as new technologies are developed.

1/9/2014 2:32:05 AM

120v isn't practical if you drive a lot as It only charges at 9 miles/hour. The 220/240v that appliances use are the way to go. Based on what I heard from Tesla they have the lithium stuff on lock down and reading between the lines makes me think Toyota is doing the fuel cells to pressure them into some kind of deal.

From what I've heard there may be a big reduction in cost for the batteries by end of next year. I think Tesla has a shot at mass market appeal for the Model E as long as it isn't ugly.

My work has electric chargers for cars. Pretty common in California. If electric cars were common enough it'd be an easy low cost perk for apartments.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 2:58 AM. Reason : A]

1/9/2014 2:56:21 AM

My work has Level 2 chargers, and they also added a bunch of outlets on dedicated circuits to parking decks as a stop-gap measure so people can at least plug in if the Level 2 stations are full.

[Edited on January 9, 2014 at 9:09 AM. Reason : in NC]

1/9/2014 9:09:13 AM

Electric (and/or hydrogen or even natural gas powered) cars may be the future, but I still think it will be at least 20 years before the majority of vehicles on the road are EVs. Definitely impressive stuff out there. Tesla is the only company that has impressed me, but boy did they ever.

1/9/2014 9:13:19 AM

i was seriously thinking about the volt but the 2 seater backseat is a deal breaker for my wife

the top runner right now is the c-max energi - for the first time ever i'm considering leasing because i think the technology enhancements and cost cuts will make depreciation get out of hand

most of the tax breaks don't go away until a manufacturer has made 200,000 cars and the numbers are a long ways away from that

1/9/2014 9:59:16 AM

I could damn near do 90% of my commuting/driving mileage in a golf cart, so we'll likely be looking at an EV for one of our next vehicles.

1/9/2014 10:07:38 AM

Quote :

"the top runner right now is the c-max energi - for the first time ever i'm considering leasing because i think the technology enhancements and cost cuts will make depreciation get out of hand"

That's a smart move, because right now EV depreciation is considerably worse than that of a conventional vehicle.

1/9/2014 10:11:48 AM

Has anyone driven a Volt? I have driven the Leaf and both Teslas. I'm trying to figure out what else to drive to compare. Maybe a 6series bmw?

1/9/2014 10:23:45 AM

i series BMW? Ford c-max energi?

1/9/2014 10:33:32 AM

^^do you mean vehicles with which to compare against the Tesla S?

1/9/2014 10:50:48 AM

Yeah, something in the 70k range to get a fair comparison. I drive a Prius so when I get behind the wheel of the model s it makes me curse a lot and I almost kill myself. The interior also feels like I'm in a Biggie video. I imagine other cars in the price range would have some of that effect.

1/9/2014 11:08:54 AM

compared to a Prius, plenty of $15k-$20k cars will make you feel like you are in a Biggie video

1/9/2014 11:16:01 AM

Yeah, to be honest even my wife's Outback makes me feel like that

1/9/2014 12:00:05 PM

lol

1/10/2014 1:04:16 PM

Cael: I have owned a volt for 2 years. 40k miles, only 41 gallons of fuel, and about $700 in electricity. Half of that electricity I didn't pay for.

1/10/2014 8:13:37 PM

Rode in a Tesla S today, pretty sweet. It's super low to the ground, though, so I kinda fell over getting into it

When the girl who owns it walked up to it and the door handles popped out I was like

1/11/2014 1:55:51 AM

There's an option for lowering and raising the suspension and you can even do it from the mobile app. The car I drove had that.

1/11/2014 9:01:18 AM

I almost bought a Volt, they had a 2013 new model for $21k after rebates and tax credits. Its a nice car, but for me (6'3, 250lbs) the center console design made me feel way too cramped. If they manage to redesign that center console to open up the front compartment a bit (or just make the car a little wider) I would be a buyer.

Also check out the Ford Fusion Energi, Ford C-Max, Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid, and Cadillac ELR

1/11/2014 8:34:14 PM

Quote :

"When the girl who owns it walked up to it and the door handles popped out I was like"

My Subaru would unlock the doors when I walked up to it. Big deal

1/17/2014 8:31:59 AM

about to pull the trigger on a c-max energi - drove 2 today (the first dealership didn't have any that were charged) and enjoyed it - tons less power than my maxima and no heated steering wheel but everything else i liked better

1/25/2014 6:19:50 PM

Why do the non tesla electrics have weaker engines than their gas counterparts? Is it purely an energy management thing or they just use weaker motors?

1/25/2014 11:29:37 PM

They're only maintaining a charge on the batteries not engaged to the axle.

1/25/2014 11:41:12 PM

picked up the c-max energi today - 2 year lease - we'll see how it goes

1/30/2014 6:58:50 PM

400 miles in and bout 100mpg - it had 9 on the odometer when picking it up - a few longer unexpected trips drove it down to 80 early on and it's been climbing since

2/16/2014 3:47:13 PM

If most affordable (aka not Tesla) electric/hybrid cars on the market today weren't so butt ugly I might consider looking at some.

2/16/2014 5:07:47 PM

Some of them really are beat up. I suppose the fusion energi is probably the least beat up. Even the accord plug in was messed up.

2/16/2014 6:01:16 PM

EV Owners:
I'm considering the Volt at this time. Does the lack of gas purchased really offset the inflated cost?

2/18/2014 1:36:38 PM

read CarZin's volt thread in the garage for tons of data

there are some fairly large variables such as do you have the ability to change the billing for your power to an on-peak / off-peak schedule and does your lifestyle enable it to be effective - things like how long your daily commute is and will you be able to complete it typically without using gas by either staying under the single-use range or charging at work

you are still paying a premium to be an early adopter either way but the tax credits do help

2/18/2014 2:07:24 PM

I was just sitting at a stoplight alongside a Volt, a Leaf, and a Tesla all at the same time. There also a few Priuses here, but I couldn't tell if any of them were the plug-in (probably not, because at least two of them were cabs)

Electric drive is officially back.

2/18/2014 7:43:07 PM

There's probably a ton of articles on this already, but I'll take the flak for being lazy here.

If EVs continue to gain market share, at what point does the availability of rare earth elements to make batteries shift the demand curve to the point where battery costs become prohibitive. I suspect that point will come sooner than we run out of liquid dino.

2/25/2014 11:15:31 AM

i would guess that battery technology adapts before we reach that point

2/25/2014 11:25:13 AM

longer lasting and rechargeable batteries becoming more commonplace would need to factor in as well

2/25/2014 11:52:47 AM

^^^

I see you know LJ

Just from Wikipedia:

Quote :

"However, according to a 2011 study conducted at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and the University of California Berkeley, the currently estimated reserve base of lithium should not be a limiting factor for large-scale battery production for electric vehicles, as the study estimated that on the order of 1 billion 40 kWh Li-based batteries could be built with current reserves.[80] Another 2011 study by researchers from the University of Michigan and Ford Motor Company found that there are sufficient lithium resources to support global demand until 2100, including the lithium required for the potential widespread use of hybrid electric, plug-in hybrid electric and battery electric vehicles. The study estimated global lithium reserves at 39 million tons, and total demand for lithium during the 90-year period analyzed at 12–20 million tons, depending on the scenarios regarding economic growth and recycling rates.[81]"

2/25/2014 4:47:02 PM

on my way to 1000 miles on the dealer tank of gas




driving to NC at the end of April which will add 900-1000 miles - mostly using gas which will change the numbers drastically but 2 months in my regular schedule allows for electric usage almost entirely

3/30/2014 7:25:53 PM

Im test driving the BMW i3 later in April. My commute would be perfect for a 100% EV so Im thinking of making the switch from diesel.

3/30/2014 8:21:14 PM

Very happy to see more WolfWebbers buying/considering electric vehicles. I think once you have one, you don't really want to go back to gas.

Where are you test driving the i3?

4/2/2014 9:41:21 AM

It's going to be years before there's an affordable AWD high clearance electric crossover / SUV so I don't think I'll be getting one anytime soon. I do see a ton of Tesla's in Denver and a surprising amount of them have snow tires and make it to the mountains.

4/2/2014 10:54:30 AM

^^ performance bmw in Chapel Hill. There are having an i3 event there in April and will have some on hand for test drives.

4/2/2014 6:28:48 PM

Quote :

"It's going to be years before there's an affordable AWD high clearance electric crossover"

Actually, you can reserve Tesla Model X right now and have it next summer. I'm not sure what you consider "affordable", but that is not exactly an affordable market segment to begin with.

4/2/2014 10:47:11 PM

The model x is going to be close to 100k 'moderately' equipped and it is apparently going to be 10% above the model S.

4/3/2014 4:03:39 PM

Quote :

"I'm not sure what you consider "affordable", but that is not exactly an affordable market segment to begin with."

What AWD high clearance crossovers? Sure it is. The Outback, CRV, Rav4 etc all are AWD and have high clearance and are ~$30k for the premium versions. You can get a BMW X1 for ~$30-32k. Once you hit ~$40k you start getting into the entry level BMW X3s and Audi allroads. If an electric awd crossover came out for $40-50k that would be considered affordable in my mind.

4/3/2014 4:24:26 PM

^

TCO for a $90K Tesla comes out comparable to a $50K - $60K Audi even assuming heavy depreciation on the Tesla. There is a spreadsheet going around on Tesla Motors Club.

[Edited on April 3, 2014 at 5:02 PM. Reason : a]

4/3/2014 5:02:31 PM

Ah gotcha. I assume with tax breaks and gas savings? I can't imagine it's that huge a difference.

4/3/2014 5:52:00 PM