http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/justice/scotus-michigan-affirmative-action/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Quote :

"The Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld a Michigan law banning the use of racial criteria in college admissions, a key decision in an unfolding legal and political battle nationally over affirmative action. The justices found 6-2 that a lower court did not have the authority to set aside the measure approved in a 2006 referendum supported by 58% of voters."

Discuss...

4/22/2014 4:34:24 PM

Personally I think it is hypocritical that demand equal rights on one hand than expecting preferential treatment with regards to job, college acceptance, etc on the flip side. Ideally ones skin color should not be a detriment or benefit to getting accepted into college or getting a job.

4/22/2014 4:38:09 PM

Is this going to make minorities happy? No.

Are they going to cart out Jesse Jackson et al and decry racism in modern America? Probably.

Do I think this is the correct ruling? Yes.

4/22/2014 4:57:05 PM

From my understanding AA helps women more then minority men.

As a white male I don't see it being an issue against me.

4/22/2014 5:00:06 PM

Quote :

"Ideally ones skin color should not be a detriment or benefit to getting accepted into college or getting a job."

LOL, "ideally"?

So what happens when this situation is not "ideal"? With or without race-based admission policies, being black is always a negative. The ruling perhaps makes things LESS ideal, than with the ruling in place.

At Michigan State, white students are underrepresented by ~6% compared to the general population, black students are underrepresented by 50%.

The way Michigan went about this is slimy too. They used a voter referendum. That means if 100% of blacks in Mi voted "no", it would only take ~22% of whites voting "yes" to cancel them out. That is non-democractic.

That being said, discrimination is still illegal, and it will look worse on Michigan if things get worse under the new law. It would mean the only reason they were giving minorities a chance was because the law was forcing them, which would renew calls for anti-discrimination laws.

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 12:18 AM. Reason : ]

4/23/2014 12:17:57 AM

Quote :

"At Michigan State, white students are underrepresented by ~6% compared to the general population, black students are underrepresented by 50%."

Why do you feel like a college population should be representative of the entire population?

If Asians are kicking the shit out of whites and blacks, for example, then there should be a higher proportion of them represented.

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 12:41 AM. Reason : Don't like it? Get into the fuckin' books.]

4/23/2014 12:41:12 AM

^ it shouldn't be representative of the state population, that's just a comparison to show that things are bad for blacks trying to go to college in Michigan.

Looks like they are likely going to get worse...

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-court-affirmative-action-20140423,0,2031695.story#axzz2zgHfSdPe

Quote :

" The University of California system has adopted several recruiting and admissions measures to work around the state's prohibition. But enrollment of African Americans has not completely rebounded at UC's two most competitive campuses from the sharp dips that occurred after the ban took effect. "

A video by UNC students on what it's like to be black in college:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NML9JEhXa6c

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 12:44 AM. Reason : ]

4/23/2014 12:43:04 AM

I wonder if that video talks about how hard it is to take fake classes when the instructor doesn't even exist... Expect McDanger to come in here soon and lament about how guilty he feels for being white.

4/23/2014 1:13:24 AM

^ ironically, it touches a little on that issue... guess you didn't watch it though :-\

Clearly you prefer ignorance.

4/23/2014 1:15:31 AM

Quote :

"At Michigan State, white students are underrepresented by ~6% compared to the general population, black students are underrepresented by 50%. The way Michigan went about this is slimy too. They used a voter referendum. That means if 100% of blacks in Mi voted "no", it would only take ~22% of whites voting "yes" to cancel them out. That is non-democractic. "

Welcome to majority rule?

Since Republicans are a minority in the Senate, I say we start treating them like we do minorities in the general populace...let them have their way.

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 9:58 AM. Reason : asdfa]

4/23/2014 9:57:26 AM

^ lol

you realize the constitution was written to protect minorities...? If we as a country accepted the idea of voting away peoples' rights, the women's suffrage movement, freeing the slave, the civil rights era, gay rights, would have never happened or taken longer to happened. We wouldn't have ever had the electoral college system (when/if this goes away, the mid-west countries might as well not even vote).

But really, although irritating, you're perspective is moot. If you want to entrench the idea that majorities get to vote on minority rights and steam roll them, it won't be too long until the current entrenched white-male monopoly becomes the minority, and have their rights voted away from them...

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 12:41 PM. Reason : ]

4/23/2014 12:39:02 PM

Why would eliminating the electoral college devalue voters in the MidWest? I thought the issue was the opposite that citizens are disenfranchised in the heavy Red or heavy Blue states. Essentially voting for Obama in Texas is pointless whereas if the electoral college was eliminated than the vote would actually count.

4/23/2014 12:54:58 PM

Because it would be based on national popular vote, is the current initiative making the rounds. So the 20 democrats in Texas combine with the 390 in Detroit, to make the other 400 republicans in Texas irrelevant.

4/23/2014 1:59:57 PM

I do see if the electoral college is eliminated, this would be the campaign stops for presidential candidates..

NY, LA, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas.

It would just be nice to get Ohio off the election news 24/7 for 2 years before the election.

4/23/2014 2:48:02 PM

Quote :

"being black is always a negative"

oh good grief moron

4/23/2014 4:46:15 PM

why don't we just take the "race" field off all applications? it's an antiquated concept anyway.

4/23/2014 7:37:06 PM

If it weren't for the concept of race, Democrats wouldn't be elected like they are.

4/23/2014 8:29:20 PM

Quote :

"It would just be nice to get Ohio off the election news 24/7 for 2 years before the election. "

ohio's one of the more populous states in the country. they'd probably still get plenty of attention.

4/23/2014 8:46:56 PM

Quote :

"to show that things are bad for blacks trying to go to college in Michigan."

It doesn't say that at all...at least, until someone actually does virtually impossible work to try and understand why the number is what it is. Why do we have to insist on what seems like a level playing field in the classroom but not on the sports field?


The cruelest irony of this is white doods like moron try so hard to be compassionate to minorities when actually this "you're being held back you need help" mentality is working against them rather than for them.

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 9:32 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2014 9:29:34 PM

This will never end.

You have two African Americans in two of the highest political positions on the planet - The POTUS and Attorney General. Rather than be someone that some could look up to, and to some extent they still are, they have both attempted to use the race card to their advantage.

Great way to show how you have overcome adversity in this country.

4/23/2014 10:38:04 PM

Quote :

"why don't we just take the "race" field off all applications? it's an antiquated concept anyway. "

Seriously...? There are schools in mississippi where they just had their first desegregated proms recently. I've never filled out a form where race was mandatory, but there are going to be situations where it should be considered. It doesn't make sense creating a blanket law banning the use of it as a factor.

The ideal would be where we're at a point where it doesn't matter, but we're not at that point yet. There's still a large amount of institutional racism, as pretty much all the statistics and anecdotes demonstrate.

There is an upside that no one can doubt the credibility of the blacks that do make it through the application process, but that is really only a paper-thin silver lining, considering the prevalence of institutionalized racism.

Sotomayor was right, more right than Roberts, by pointing out that problems don't go away by not talking about them or ignoring them, or pretending they don't exist.

^^ lol, i'm not even white...

^ statistics, i know your kind shies away from reality, but Obama is just one person. And he still gets called the affirmative action president. He still had to face criticism about his birth certificate that only stuck around because of how he looks. He still can't talk about race without massive amounts of criticism that he's playing the "race card."

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 11:31 PM. Reason : just realized you played the race-card card o.O]

4/23/2014 11:24:01 PM

^^ please, enlighten us as to how they've used the race card to their advantage

because simply talking about race /= using the race card

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 11:27 PM. Reason : it almost seems like you're a "racism ended in November of 2008" person]

4/23/2014 11:24:56 PM

lol missed the race-card card the first time around.

4/23/2014 11:31:37 PM

Quote :

"He still had to face criticism about his birth certificate that only stuck around because of how he looks."

Nah. he stoked that flame himself for political gain. And it didn't "stick around because of how he looks." it stuck around because his dad wasn't an American. (and there are some racist fucks, too)

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 12:52 AM. Reason : ]

4/24/2014 12:52:18 AM

Quote :

"it stuck around because his dad wasn't an American."

... that makes it racist...

4/24/2014 12:53:32 AM

Not when part of the requirement to be president is being a natural born citizen... His dad not being American allowed there to be legitimate questions about if he was a natural born citizen. Doesn't mean he isn't, of course

4/24/2014 1:21:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82jgo1XdS0

Holder whining about being picked on because he's black.

4/24/2014 7:11:59 AM

The college admission process, in my opinion, should be completely blind. No name, no race, no identifying information at all.

Mandating a certain population of a university be black or hispanic or asian is no better than segregation. Both use race as the determining factor for admission instead of academic achievement.

If you want to make race a non-issue, take it out of the issue.

4/24/2014 8:46:04 AM

afirmitive affirmative action

my education at NCSU (which was given to me due to my skin color) taught me that.

4/24/2014 9:06:29 AM

^^ let's get serious here. Rich people would never let this happen bc all of their kids would end up in community college.

4/24/2014 9:53:12 AM

Quote :

" His dad not being American allowed there to be legitimate questions about if he was a natural born citizen. "

LOL... those questions were never legitimate. We have a process in this country to determine birth rights (the birth certificate), which is easily checkable, and was. Any questions about his parents beyond this is not legitimate.

^^^
No university has ever done things that way, they have to consider things like your high school community resources, otherwise only rich kids from rich high schools would go to college. If your goal is to make this fair for everyone, it's logical to extend this in reasonable ways.

And I'm not saying race SHOULD be used, i'm saying it should be an option. You can't solve a problem by ignoring it, this almost never works.

4/24/2014 1:20:00 PM

Quote :

"Rich people would never let this happen bc all of their kids would end up in community college."

I'd like clarification on what this means.

4/24/2014 1:39:56 PM

Quote :

"No university has ever done things that way"

Really? In the entire history of upper level education, this has never been done? That's a bold statement.

Quote :

"they have to consider things like your high school community resources,"

No, no they don't have to. It's not decreed in stone anywhere that this is required. They choose to do this.

Quote :

"otherwise only rich kids from rich high schools would go to college"

Bullshit. I know plenty of rich, white, entitled dumbasses from rich, mostly white high schools who couldn't make it into community college based off their own academic merit.

4/24/2014 1:48:30 PM

Quote :

"No, no they don't have to. It's not decreed in stone anywhere that this is required. They choose to do this. "

lol, of course. But why do you think they choose to do this...? You think in a state like NC, with a heavily publicly funded education system, it would fly if the admissions system didn't try to level the playing field for students from poor farming communities compared to students from wealthier suburbs?

In states where racism is publicly rampant, you think it'd fly if admissions rejected minorities at disproportionately high rates?

4/24/2014 1:52:49 PM

Quote :

"lol, of course. But why do you think they choose to do this...? You think in a state like NC, with a heavily publicly funded education system, it would fly if the admissions system didn't try to level the playing field for students from poor farming communities compared to students from wealthier suburbs?"

To me this is the same as saying that poor people in rural areas and racial minorities are too stupid to get into college on their own. Again, bullshit. If I was in that boat, and I was admitted into college, I would want it to be because I was smart enough and worked hard enough to get in... not because I was from bumfuck.

Following your logic, should we give white runners a head start at track & field events so they can fairly compete against their black counterparts? We've got to level the playing field.. they already added the 3 point line in basketball....

4/24/2014 2:11:55 PM

Quote :

"To me this is the same as saying that poor people in rural areas and racial minorities are too stupid to get into college on their own."

Im guessing you've never looked into this issue more deeply than your own emotions.

Generally in poorer schools, high schools have less AP classes (or none), less extra curricular activities, worse teachers, etc.

So if a student is from a wealthy schools, a half-assed student might have some AP credit, a boosted GPA, and some bullshit club they were a part of because their best friend was president.

Where as the best student from a poor school might just have their good grades, but no AP classes, and be part of the band.

Without some consideration of WHERE this student is from, just looking at them on paper puts the half-assed student from the wealthier school district above the student from the poorer district.

It has absolutely nothing to do with someone being dumber, neither do affirmative action policies.

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 2:17 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2014 2:16:54 PM

Which were you from, moron?

Describe your high school self please.

4/24/2014 2:22:45 PM

^^ You've done a fairly good job of arguing why colleges might want to do comparisons based on school attended and maybe even SES. Still haven't seen anything that justifies racial discrimination in the admissions process.

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 2:23 PM. Reason : dsf]

4/24/2014 2:22:50 PM

^ it's not "discrimination", but given what you know about the impact of the civil rights struggle on the economic status of black americans, prejudice, and institutionalized racism, what in your mind would justify considering race in a collegiate admissions process?

4/24/2014 2:33:39 PM

Can't whites get into historically black colleges as minorities?

Winston Salem State definitely used to allow that; don't know if it's the case anymore.

4/24/2014 2:41:12 PM

^ yeah they can, which is a good thing.

4/24/2014 2:44:17 PM

Quote :

"Im guessing you've never looked into this issue more deeply than your own emotions. Generally in poorer schools, high schools have less AP classes (or none), less extra curricular activities, worse teachers, etc. So if a student is from a wealthy schools, a half-assed student might have some AP credit, a boosted GPA, and some bullshit club they were a part of because their best friend was president. Where as the best student from a poor school might just have their good grades, but no AP classes, and be part of the band. Without some consideration of WHERE this student is from, just looking at them on paper puts the half-assed student from the wealthier school district above the student from the poorer district. It has absolutely nothing to do with someone being dumber, neither do affirmative action policies."

Ok, so taking geography out of the equation, lets consider 2 students from the same school, one white and one black. They take the same classes, and are in the same extra curricular activities. The white kid has better grades and test scores than the black kid, but the college they both apply to accepts the black kid over the white kid because ~affirmative action~.

And you think that's fair? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Quote :

"it's not "discrimination""

Yes, yes it is discrimination. That is literally the definition of discrimination.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination

Quote :

"treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit"

Let's consider the flip side of the coin from your own example. The kid in the rural area is more likely to be at the top of his class than the slacker in the metro area, because class sizes are smaller in rural schools. They have a better chance to participate in multiple extracurricular activities because there is less competition for positions.

Like 1337 b4k4 said, you're making great arguments for why colleges might want to do comparisons based on school attended, but you still haven't explained why we should racially discriminate during the admissions process.

4/24/2014 3:51:18 PM

Quote :

"They take the same classes, and are in the same extra curricular activities. The white kid has better grades and test scores than the black kid, but the college they both apply to accepts the black kid over the white kid because ~affirmative action~. "

LOL that's generally not fair, but statistically, it doesn't happen.

You're basing your opinion on an emotional bogeyman that you'er afraid of, rather than real-world studies and statistics.

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 4:59 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2014 4:58:16 PM

Quote :

"it's not "discrimination", but given what you know about the impact of the civil rights struggle on the economic status of black americans, prejudice, and institutionalized racism, what in your mind would justify considering race in a collegiate admissions process?"

As pointed out, it's the very definition of discrimination. That the word has become loaded in the political arena doesn't change the definition of the word.

That said, to answer your question, nothing. Race does not and should not enter into the equation because race by definition tells you nothing about the individual. That's sort of the whole point of anti-discrimination laws isn't it?

4/24/2014 5:17:10 PM

Quote :

"LOL that's generally not fair, but statistically, it doesn't happen."

You're right, that's not fair. Now apply that situation to all the kids who were smart enough and worked hard enough to get into the school of their choice but didn't because of racial quotas. Yep, still not fair.

Also, I didn't realize you were an educational statistician. Since you have intimate knowledge of this subject, what is the incident rate and could you please cite sources? I doubt I'm the only one reading this thread who would be interested in seeing your data.

Quote :

"You're basing your opinion on an emotional bogeyman that you'er afraid of, rather than real-world studies and statistics."

How in the world do you know what I'm basing my opinion on? Are you psychic? Clairvoyant? Do I need to call Miss Cleo and let her know she has competition?

Please, since you know so much about me and my thoughts and feelings, what is the emotional boogeyman I'm afraid of?

Hint:

Quote :

"That said, to answer your question, nothing. Race does not and should not enter into the equation because race by definition tells you nothing about the individual. That's sort of the whole point of anti-discrimination laws isn't it?"

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 7:51 PM. Reason : .]

4/24/2014 7:51:25 PM

Quote :

"Where as the best student from a poor school might just have their good grades, but no AP classes, and be part of the band."

So you're saying they are likely less prepared than some other student to be in the college you think they should be in...just because...and you actually expect them to succeed?

4/24/2014 8:14:01 PM

Quote :

"So you're saying they are likely less prepared than some other student to be in the college you think they should be in...just because...and you actually expect them to succeed?"

Actually, this brings up another good point about the whole thing. Assume for the sake of argument the answer to the above is "yes, a person from a low income school shouldn't be denied access to college just because their school doesn't have as man AP classes" and assume for the sake of argument that this is actually occurring (and not just in a "low income kid goes to Wake Tec, high income kid goes to Duke" sort of thing). Is doing the discrimination at the college admissions level actually helping these students? CSU says almost 2/3rds of their students are unprepared for classes and require remedial courses (http://www.lao.ca.gov/sections/higher_ed/FAQs/Higher_Education_Issue_02.pdf). Figure that on average having to take remedial classes (plus any repeats the student might have to do being unprepared) adds another semester onto their time at school. That means the average low income student shuffled into the CSU system has to come up with an additional $6,695 on average tuition and fees (and possibly room and board as well) (http://www.calstate.edu/budget/student-fees/fee-rates/TuitionFeesAllCampus.pdf). And that's for state schools, where the tax payers are already paying for some of that. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money to equalize the education available across the state primary school system rather than simply passing students along?

4/24/2014 11:17:48 PM

Quote :

"You're right, that's not fair. Now apply that situation to all the kids who were smart enough and worked hard enough to get into the school of their choice but didn't because of racial quotas. Yep, still not fair. "

You're missing the point. It doesn't happen. It doesn't show up in statistics, and if it does happen, it happens far less than the blacks or hispanics being smart enough and who have worked hard enough, but were rejected because of their skin color.

Quote :

"How in the world do you know what I'm basing my opinion on? Are you psychic? Clairvoyant? Do I need to call Miss Cleo and let her know she has competition?"

I know that because there's literally no studies or statistics, to date, that support your position. Your position isn't based in any facts, which is the problem. Too many people are ill informed and believe that somehow discrimination against the hard working white is a problem. It has never been demonstrated to be a problem thus far, it is an unfounded fear. It is a relic of a time when whites could openly acknowledge their privilege, that has long since passed. Loss of privilege is not a discrimination.

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 11:31 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2014 11:29:11 PM

^^ that is a good questions, but isn't the right answer to provide support resources for these students?

Education is somewhat of a social institution, it's the backbone of the future of any country. It's important its impact remains fair and equal. It's not the same thing as winning a race.

Regarding "passing students along" this happens less in college environments. Policies can help disadvantaged students in, but it's up to those students to perform well and get through the system.

Quote :

"We are looking at some of the 'last white men standing,'" Mark Anthony Neal, an African-American studies professor at Duke University, said of demographic shifts that show minorities now represent more than half of the nation's population born in 2010 and 2011, according to the most-recent Census data."

- http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/24/politics/bundy-and-race/

Seriously white people... minorities aren't any smarter or kinder than you, they will have the same hangups and prejudices when they are in power. If we don't establish a society that values true fairness, acceptance, equality, and diversity now, it can only make things worse for white people in the future.

Turning a blind eye to present institutionalized racism isn't the right answer.

[Edited on April 24, 2014 at 11:50 PM. Reason : ]

4/24/2014 11:33:49 PM

Quote :

" but isn't the right answer to provide support resources for these students?"

So how is discrimination based on race "providing support resources for these students"?

Quote :

"Regarding "passing students along" this happens less in college environments. Policies can help disadvantaged students in, but it's up to those students to perform well and get through the system. "

But that's sort of my point. By rigging the admissions system to admit students that are under-prepared (and by allowing those students to have been passed along through the primary school system), not only are we not correcting the imbalance in the primary schooling system, but then we are shifting the burden of correcting that balance onto the student who is both the least prepared and least able to afford the costs of correcting that imbalance.

Quote :

"Seriously white people... minorities aren't any smarter or kinder than you, they will have the same hangups and prejudices when they are in power. If we don't establish a society that values true fairness, acceptance, equality, and diversity now, it can only make things worse for white people in the future."

Which is why fighting for true color blind policies rather than "discrimination that's we won't call discrimination" policies is the way to go.

4/25/2014 12:05:25 AM