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 Message Boards » » Are nitrates/processed meats completely safe? Page [1] 2, Next  
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I thought not, but this guy seems to think otherwise - http://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-and-nitrite-myth-another-reason-not-to-fear-bacon

For the purposes of this thread, safe means "no reason not to have a serving or two daily"

8/1/2014 8:56:52 PM

0EPII1
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Cured meats have been shown to raise the chances of stomach and bowel cancer in a few studies.

8/1/2014 9:07:31 PM

Smath74
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no reason not to have a serving or two daily

8/1/2014 10:19:41 PM

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^^ yeah I though there was a pretty strong link to colon cancer...stronger than red meat. and I thought it was more than just a few studies.

someone educate me.

8/1/2014 10:57:26 PM

eleusis
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sodium nitrate is a hell of a lot safer than botulism. if you're worried about getting stomach cancer from nitrates, then you need to cut out a lot of vegetables as well since they naturally contain nitrates.

8/1/2014 11:44:31 PM

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Quote :
". However, vitamin C naturally inhibits the conversion to nitrosamines, which is why fresh fruits and vegetables high in nitrates cause far fewer problems than meats artificially high in nitrates."

8/2/2014 3:04:12 PM

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Seems like the answer to this is the same with most other questions like it..."who the fuck knows"

Quote :
"High intake of nitrates and nitrites is carcinogenic in animal models. In humans, the association between cancer and nitrites is uncertain. Some studies have observed a link, especially with animal-based nitrates, whereas others have not.
Nitrates and nitrites themselves are not carcinogenic, but nitrites formed from dietary nitrates might react with dietary amines to form carcinogenic nitrosamines (like N-nitrosodmethylamine, NDMA), especially when meat-containing nitrites or nitrates are cooked or grilled. Martin Katan stated in his editorial in AJCN (2009), “Thus, evidence for adverse effects of dietary nitrate and nitrite is weak, and intakes above the legal limit might well be harmless.”"


http://www.pronutritionist.net/nitrates-are-beneficial-where-did-i-get-it-wrong/

8/2/2014 3:07:22 PM

Byrn Stuff
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This thread is relevant to my interests: I love bacon and barbecue, and my Dad had colon cancer.

[/TWW is not a blog]

8/2/2014 3:48:56 PM

eleusis
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^^^so the vegetables that have almost no vitamin C content protect you from the dangers of nitrates through their vitamin C content?

8/2/2014 5:20:49 PM

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18444144
http://preventcancer.aicr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=recommendations_05_red_meat

8/3/2014 12:09:39 AM

eleusis
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Quote :
"Preserved vegetables was more strongly associated with cancer risk than preserved animal foods "


Quote :
"Epidemiologic studies and laboratory animal models suggest that a high intake of dietary fat promotes CRC. High fat intake favors the secretion of bile acids (BA) into the duodenum, and activates bacterial 7-alpha-dehydroxylase that makes secondary BA. These BA, deoxycholic and lithocholic acids, promote colon carcinogenesis in several animal models, and are elevated in stools from populations at risk for cancer (30). A high fat diet also leads to free fatty acids in the colonic lumen. They may damage the colonic epithelium and increase proliferation, an effect blocked by dietary calcium (31). The hypothesis that fat or BA promotes colorectal carcinogenesis have been tested in several studies briefly reported below."


I'm sure the people eating high amounts of processed meats also have high fat diets full of canned vegetables and short on fresh fruits and vegetables. There's a lot of socioeconomic factors that make this issue not as simple as some studies would like to portray it as.

8/3/2014 11:20:31 AM

RattlerRyan
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Correlation =/= causation

8/4/2014 2:00:37 PM

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Bttt

5/3/2017 11:54:59 PM

rwoody
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"Vit c cancels out nitrates" is great news for me. I always eat big handfuls of spinach, kale, or broccoli with my bacon and joke that they cancel each other out, I guess I was right!

I also eat the "natural, low nitrate" bacon, not sure how much diff that makes, if any

5/4/2017 12:03:30 AM

smoothcrim
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Ive been reading that "uncured" cured meats use a bacterial process that uses celery juice as the catalyst that generates more nitrates and nitrites than if direct nitrates and nitrites were used. So the "uncured" stuff may actually be worse.

5/4/2017 8:36:06 AM

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Quote :
"Curiously, regulations stipulate that the traditional curing process requires the addition of nitrite and thus “organic” processed meats that are treated with celery juice have to be labeled as “uncured.”
Such terminology is confusing because most consumers look to “organic” processed meats in order to avoid nitrites, but the fact is that these do contain nitrites, sometimes in lesser, sometimes in greater amounts than found in conventional products. That’s because the amount of nitrite that forms from nitrate in celery juice is hard to monitor, while in conventionally cured processed meats, the addition of nitrite is strictly controlled by regulations designed to minimize nitrosamine formation and maximize protection against botulism. This means any risk due to nitrosamine formation or bacterial contamination in the “organic” version is more challenging to evaluate."


Quote :
"According to the New York Times, the naturally-derived nitrites "are virtually identical to their synthetic cousins" and pose a similar cancer risk. Yet current USDA rules require products with naturally-derived preservatives to prominently feature “Uncured” and “No nitrates or nitrites added” on the label, despite the fact that these products can contain as much or more of the potentially harmful nitrite chemicals.
"


[Edited on May 4, 2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason : http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/02/business/02hotdog.html?_r=0]

5/4/2017 10:55:57 AM

neodata686
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Although I've mostly eliminated beef and pork from my diet (with rare exception) to clarify it's when these items are cooked or grilled? I'm good eating my soppressata cold.

5/6/2017 11:26:46 AM

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I don't follow

5/6/2017 11:45:12 PM

tulsigabbard
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5/9/2017 7:26:17 PM

begonias
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https://examine.com/nutrition/does-red-meat-cause-cancer

Quote :
"Summary: On a population wide basis, red meat is definitely associated with cancer. The association has been shown numerous times, but is fairly weak in relevance. The most well-controlled study noted an 0.2-fold increase. Please note association; this has not yet been shown through interventions nor is the cause known. If we are to answer 'does red meat cause cancer', the answer is 'we do not know'"

5/10/2017 12:11:19 PM

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Yeah it seems the data is a little more worrying on processed meat than it is for red meat.

Quote :
"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has classified processed meat as a carcinogen, something that causes cancer. And it has classified red meat as a probable carcinogen, something that probably causes cancer. IARC is the cancer agency of the World Health Organization."


https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/world-health-organization-says-processed-meat-causes-cancer.html
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2015/11/03/report-says-eating-processed-meat-is-carcinogenic-understanding-the-findings/

Quote :
"Processed meat intake may be involved in the etiology of colorectal cancer, a major cause of death in affluent countries. The epidemiologic studies published to date conclude that the excess risk in the highest category of processed meat-eaters is comprised between 20% and 50% compared with non-eaters. In addition, the excess risk per gram of intake is clearly higher than that of fresh red meat."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18444144

5/10/2017 1:48:07 PM

neodata686
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Quote :
"I don't follow"


My point was I typically only eat non-cooked processed meats. From what I'm reading the carcinogens are formed from various manners of cooking (grilling, frying, baking, etc). If you just eat it without cooking it it's safer.

5/12/2017 2:19:49 PM

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Quote :
"From what I'm reading the carcinogens are formed from various manners of cooking (grilling, frying, baking, etc)"


That's a concern, but that's a separate issue than nitrates.

5/12/2017 2:24:20 PM

neodata686
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Gotcha. I think I'm going to go pescatarian.

5/12/2017 2:27:11 PM

GREEN JAY
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ya'lls colons are gonna be checked out better than anyone in human history. get your butt scans.

5/17/2017 3:03:22 PM

rjrumfel
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So the tl;dr version of this thread is to always take one of those vitamin c alka seltzer type tabs with every serving of processed meats.

So I guess eating stuff like Boar's Head deli meat carries less of a chance of causing cancer than bacon because I'm not exposing that stuff to high temps? Because I eat a lot of sandwich mean for lunches.

5/19/2017 7:39:22 AM

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Quote :
"So I guess eating stuff like Boar's Head deli meat carries less of a chance of causing cancer than bacon because I'm not exposing that stuff to high temps?"


I don't think so. That was just a theory presented above, right? Nitrates are still there in the deli meat. I'd eat more of the same but I try to limit my exposure to nitrates.

5/19/2017 8:28:23 AM

rjrumfel
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Don't take this animosity towards you, it's just a general statement, but wtf are we supposed to be eating.

Can't eat red meat - colon cancer
Can't eat deli meat - colon cancer
Can't eat grilled meat - temp is too high

Am I just supposed to eat sushi for meat? Oh wait, that probably has too much mercury in it.

5/19/2017 11:55:42 AM

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Quote :
"Am I just supposed to eat sushi for meat?"


Forgot about poultry? And mercury in general is not a concern for seafood...nothing on the scale of processed meat. And nobody is telling you what to do man. Live your life. I think the idea is that you can choose to limit your exposure to things that might be troublesome. You don't have to eliminate them from your diet

Quote :
"it seems the data is a little more worrying on processed meat than it is for red meat. "


Quote :
"The consumption of processed meat was associated with small increases in the risk of cancer in the studies reviewed. In those studies, the risk generally increased with the amount of meat consumed. An analysis of data from 10 studies estimated that every 50 gram portion of processed meat eaten daily increases the risk of colorectal cancer by about 18%.

The cancer risk related to the consumption of red meat is more difficult to estimate because the evidence that red meat causes cancer is not as strong..."


Here's actual guidance, to correct your strawman above

Quote :
"16. Should I stop eating meat?

Eating meat has known health benefits. Many national health recommendations advise people to limit intake of processed meat and red meat, which are linked to increased risks of death from heart disease, diabetes, and other illnesses.

17. How much meat is it safe to eat?

The risk increases with the amount of meat consumed, but the data available for evaluation did not permit a conclusion about whether a safe level exists."


More here if you're actually interested: http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

5/19/2017 12:30:49 PM

rjrumfel
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Well, I'm stressing out over my diet anyway. Why not add a little more stress

5/19/2017 1:36:45 PM

ssclark
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The real answer is "who the fuck knows."

for 70 years the AMA told people to drink milk to "soothe" stomach ulcers ... only to find out that H. Pylori feeds on protein and we'd just been making people more sick.

Nutritional science, especially when it comes to medical issues is basically a crock of shit at this point. None of us really know, and when physicians say we do we're lying. Everyone thought cholesterol was the devil until people started noticing that newborns have fatty streaks in their arteries. And the majority of MI deaths attributable to plaques occurred in people with minimal asymptomatic disease that we have no legitimate way to uncover. Not the people with 75-90% disease that start having clinical symptoms. We'll see how policy changes in the next 10-15 years concerning fats in the diet etc.

So limit nitrites if you want, I don't foresee anyway it could hurt to limit them. I'm not necessarily convinced there's a benefit, but frankly we wont know for another 15-30 years. And im very hesitant to trust the scientific community concerning nutrition at the moment. Shit we created an entire ideology around bread being the basis of life...

as glib as
Quote :
"Don't take this animosity towards you, it's just a general statement, but wtf are we supposed to be eating."
This seems like a pretty genuine sentiment to me. We live in nutritional bizzaroland.

5/25/2017 10:04:27 AM

Wickerman
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It is crazy how addicted people in this country are to red meat and processed meat. I've never eaten them my entire life and never plan to.

5/26/2017 12:32:03 AM

0EPII1
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^ <3

5/26/2017 6:08:42 AM

ssclark
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thought we were saving glib over-generalizations for chit chat eh ?

5/26/2017 6:11:03 AM

Crede
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That info-graphic said you'd have to eat 6+ pieces of bacon each day to see an increased risk due to nitrates. If you're eating 6 pieces of bacon a day you got separate problems altogether.

5/28/2017 2:24:47 PM

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That's to increase your risk by 18%, and bacon is just one example of processed meat.

5/28/2017 5:55:57 PM

0EPII1
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^^ there is increased risk from every bit, see ^

millions of people eat 6 or more pieces of bacon a day, and many millions more eat the equivalent of 6+ pieces of bacon a day (equivalent amounts of all processed meats consumed daily), so, it is not something rare or unusual.

5/28/2017 7:01:41 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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everyone who eats processed meats is gonna die

5/28/2017 7:11:14 PM

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^yup yup

5/28/2017 7:55:38 PM

0EPII1
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no wai tel mi moar

5/28/2017 9:32:30 PM

Crede
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^^^^ that may be true, but there is no study nor any science that can prove any piece of bacon, besides that sixth piece of bacon, that'll hitcha come cancertime.

I rarely eat bacon -- maybe 1 piece a week on average -- but this just seems like a scare tactic.

You want to worry about shit? Worry about sugar.

5/28/2017 11:30:56 PM

Wickerman
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Most people on here - Processed meat is soo delicious and I cannot figure out a diet without it since I've been raised eating this junk and cannot quit the habit. How much of it can I eat so that I don't die of cancer.

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20110123/us-has-7th-highest-cancer-rate-in-the-world#1



Quote :
"“Eating less red meat and more whole grains and vegetables, which are rich in fiber and a lot of helpful phytochemicals and antioxidants, can help maintain a healthy weight,”"

5/30/2017 9:28:51 AM

ssclark
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Quote :
" more whole grains"


completely untrue.

6/1/2017 12:15:03 PM

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What's bad about whole grains?

6/1/2017 12:59:01 PM

ssclark
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nothing inherently, but the trumping of whole grains as "better" is shenanigans. Especially when the epidemic in this country is obesity and not malnutrition... whatever very minor nutritional benefit "whole grains" may have over other grain products does not out-weigh the "bread makes you fat" problem.

6/2/2017 6:14:34 AM

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Whole grains != bread, and the nutritional benefit of eating whole grains instead of refined grains is not "very minor"

6/2/2017 8:47:43 AM

0EPII1
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whole grains doesn't necessarily mean bread. unfortunately though, in most developed countries, grain=bread* is essentially true.

*or variants thereof, i.e., crackers, cookies, cereals, snacks, and other products made from flour.

show me someone who eats tons of intact/cracked/rolled whole grains, i.e., not products made from ultra-pulverized grains, and is fat.

the problem is flour, not grains. all foods made from flour -- except pasta -- are converted to blood sugar very quickly, even if whole grain, which is what causes problems.

pasta is an exception as it is made from a hard wheat ("durum wheat") which is much lower on the glycemic index. the other advantage is that durum is a more ancient variety of wheat, unlike bread wheat, which is a modern invention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum

even though the glycemic index of whole wheat flour products is high just like it is for refined flour products, still, the nutritional benefits consuming the former are significant compared to from eating the latter, and not just "very minor" -- you get all the fiber, protein, fat, minerals, and vitamins lost due to refining.

bread wheat is a highly hybridized species developed by farmers because it has a high yield and threshes easily, but is inferior in many nutritional respects to original ancient varieties of wheat. i remember reading a study in which they fed two groups bread, one group got bread made from common bread wheat, and the other made from emmer wheat (farro, get it from TJ's or WF). then they checked inflammation markers in the blood a short time after. common wheat led to a significant increase in the markers, whereas bread made from farro actually led to a slight suppression of the inflammation markers.

just to show you how much hybridized modern wheat is, consider that an ancient variety called einkorn wheat (used in europe) has two sets of chromosomes, and is thus called diploid. now compare:

einkorn - diploid

farro - tetraploid
durum - tetraploid
kamut - tetraploid

bread wheat - hexaploid
spelt - hexaploid

that's right, common bread wheat is so hybridized that it has 6 sets of chromosomes... it is a goddamn mutant.

but still, eating cooked cracked or whole intact grains is far superior to eating products made from flour, regardless of the wheat type, or any other grain for that matter. farro is readily available, and can be cooked whole and eaten. we are supposed to be chewing whole foods, not converting our foods into powders, pastes, and liquids. as if it wasn't bad enough to be eating bread and other flour products (even if whole grain), now everybody wants to have their daily fruit and veggie ration liquidized in a damn blender. no one wants to eat nuts, everybody wants nut butters.

imagine a breakfast of a nut butter spread on whole grain bread and a fruit smoothie. all great whole foods but pulverized and liquidized. why not eat at least some of them whole so you can bite and chew as your mouth was designed to do, and especially let your stomach do its job of physically breaking down foods instead of providing it fully physically digested food?

oh, and the fact that [almost] all commercial breads have a ton of ingredients, including added sugar, is a whole another issue, but also another reason to avoid commercial bread.

click below for more info on the genetics of wheat varieties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat

****************************************************************************

but you know what, screw wheat, there are so many other grains (and pseudo-grains) one can eat, and the good thing is that most of them are not eaten as products made from their flours, which is good news. and they are also more or less the same as they were in ancient times.

oats
barley -- delicious and filling, my favorite
buckwheat
wild rice
rye
quinoa
millet
sorghum
teff
amaranth
brown, red, and black rice

but make sure to get whole unpolished varieties with the bran intact. nothing labeled refined, polished, pearled, or white.

as i said earlier, show me someone who eats whole grains as a staple -- not as flour products -- and is obese. just not going to happen.

http://www.bobsredmill.com is your resource for all things grains!

****************************************************************************

beans, peas, and lentils (legumes) are far superior to grains in every possible way. much much higher in protein, fiber, minerals, and phytonutrients, and much lower on the glycemic index. you don't even need to eat any grains if you don't want to.

oh, and they are pretty much guaranteed to increase your lifespan.

6/2/2017 9:24:10 AM

neodata686
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^Really good stuff.

6/2/2017 10:59:43 AM

0EPII1
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thanks

6/2/2017 11:26:34 AM

Wickerman
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Bobs Red Mill Oats are great!

6/2/2017 11:38:35 AM

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