So the lease is ending on one of our cars, and the buyout value is such that it makes it a good deal to exercise the buyout option rather than walk away. (Searching online reveals that it's basically impossible to purchase this particular car in this condition for anything less than about $1500-2000 above what we'd pay as the buyout price).

Does anyone have a REPUTABLE lender they'd recommend for a good rate? The lease buyout rate available through my bank (Suntrust) seems reasonable, 2.79 to 3.79% depending on credit etc. for a 3-year term. I've not seen anything else significantly lower out there, but if there's somewhere that I could do better, I'd like to know.

*And before anyone chimes in that financing a car is never a good decision and "if you have to finance it you ca't afford it", it's the decision I'm making in this situation right now, in no small part due to the fact that it's worth significantly more than the buyout amount. No, leasing isn't usually a good decision either, and I'm likely to never do it again, but it made sense at the time. So I don't feel like having either of those arguments.

1/18/2015 11:24:22 PM

I'm not very knowledgable about cars and the finances and stuff...but leasing/buying out my wifes car was the best decision we ever made. 2011 Honda Civic in great condition with ~25k miles. All the maintenance had been done by the dealership. Got it through her dad's dealership for <$200/month over 4 or 5 years I think.

1/19/2015 9:36:28 AM

coastal federal CU (their online banking sucks though; manageable, but shitty)
I liked BB&T when I had a truck financed through them; low rate and no issues.

[Edited on January 19, 2015 at 1:46 PM. Reason : .]

1/19/2015 1:46:04 PM

2.79 to 3.79% sounds fair for a used car loan. Coastal has 2.49 for >=2012 and 2.74 for 2010-2011.

[Edited on January 19, 2015 at 1:53 PM. Reason : ?]

1/19/2015 1:50:59 PM

Do you happen to be a member of a NC Electric Cooperative (Power Company) or have a family member who is?

I financed all of my cars through ElecTel Cooperative Federal Credit Union. I got a rate of 1.99% on used. I am a member of Wake Electric but I also work for the NC Electric Cooperatives.

http://www.electelccu.org/join.aspx

1/20/2015 1:05:30 PM

check penfed.org

had my previous car loan through them.

1/20/2015 1:33:29 PM

Went to the dealer with pre-approval for 2.49% from Coastal but the dealer was able to get me 2.19% through PNC. This was a 2012 used car purchased two weeks ago. Moral of the story - go in with pre-approval but check to see if the dealer can beat it.


[Edited on January 21, 2015 at 11:02 PM. Reason : a]

1/21/2015 10:59:03 PM

I'll look into penfed, coastal, etc--right now I've got bank approval for 2.79 through Suntrust, and since I do my banking with them anyway, the convenience is worth the extra .3 percent since it's not a huge amount anyway. The dealer offered me 5%, LOL. That was before I was approved for that 2.79 so I'll come back and see if they can make me a better offer but I doubt it. If I can get significantly below 2.49 though (like that 2.19 mentioned) that could get me to move.

1/21/2015 11:55:49 PM

pen fed

1/26/2015 10:15:45 AM

pen fed

2.49% APR 36 months
2.99% APR 48 months
2.99% APR 60 months
3.49% APR 72 months

[Edited on February 2, 2015 at 5:58 PM. Reason : .]

2/2/2015 5:57:09 PM

^CFCU kills those rates; at least for the longer terms.

I'm at 2.9 on 72

2/2/2015 7:22:17 PM

I'm at no car payments. Huzzah!

2/2/2015 8:19:35 PM

Quote :

"financing a car is never a good decision and "if you have to finance it you ca't afford it"

who says this

grandparents and/or NRR

2/2/2015 9:17:07 PM

what about when you are financing at a rate lower than you are making with the money elsewhere?

2/2/2015 9:22:03 PM

Yeah, it makes complete sense to finance a car if you can get a low enough rate and you intend to hang onto the car for a while. Paying cash for something when that cash can make you more money than financing costs you is the correct decision. If your credit sucks then you probably ought to save until you can pay for it out of pocket.

2/8/2015 12:04:02 AM

that only works if you actually invest the money and not spend it on other stuff. Some people probably start with the plan, but 18 months into the loan they may spend the money on furniture/vacation/whatever.

I paid cash for my wife's car 14 months ago, we both keeps cars for 10 years before trading them in. It's nice not having a car payment, and I just add all the money I would have spent on the car payment to savings.

2/8/2015 1:12:16 AM

interest rates are so stupid low right now, that financing a car is probably a better idea than paying cash if you have good credit.

for gods sake if you have the money saved up, all you have to do is put it in a tax-exempt bond fund, and even with the fees, you'd end up ahead after 5 years.

That's for those of us who have a pretty good financial situation.

For those that don't have a great financial situation, don't be a fucking cock. Financing a car is often the only option for people who have no choice other than a car for transportation to get them to a job that probably pays them shit. Now, obviously there's something to be said for maximizing reliability and minimizing cost per mile over say, luxury or performance. But there are a ton of people that shouldn't be shamed for financing a used econobox because that's pretty much their only reasonable option.

2/8/2015 10:25:13 AM

A thousand times this ^

2/8/2015 11:15:16 AM

^^ I cant escape my 616-716 credit score to get re-financed for a damn better rate than 11 percent and everytime i have tried it has showed as an "inquiry" thus butt Fn me more

2/9/2015 2:08:14 AM

Quote :

"And before anyone chimes in that financing a car is never a good decision and "if you have to finance it you ca't afford it""

I financed my most recent car--with PenFed, incidentally--because I was able to get a 1.49% interest rate on a used car. It would be more expensive to pay cash. That interest rate is below inflation, let alone below what I can easily earn with that money.

The great majority of people finance things way too much and use it to buy more than they should, and get caught in a vicious cycle of it. That said, the teetotaling Dave Ramsey approach is oversimplified. Sometimes financing absolutely is the best move.

As far as finding a good loan rate:
http://www.bankrate.com/funnel/auto/

[Edited on February 12, 2015 at 8:21 PM. Reason : ]

2/12/2015 8:19:56 PM

1.49 used? Damn. That was a nice score.

I went with the 2.79 from LightStream/SunTrust because it ended up being the easiest thing. Easy to set up auto payments since it's all inside my bank, plus the really nice thing is that they consider it an unsecured loan. No liens, no insurance loss payee bullshit, they hand over the money and you cut a check for the car. 2.79 on what I'm financing over three years is costing me a grand total of about $450 in interest so from that to 2.49 probably would have saved me, what, $50?

Thanks for all the suggestions though. I definitely have some ideas to consider for next time (hopefully a good ways off).

2/16/2015 1:33:20 PM

I'm shopping for a new Jeep, and the lowest rate I have found is through USAA -- 2.25% for 60 months and 2.49% for 72 months. Am I going to find a lower rate anywhere else?

2/18/2015 2:24:51 PM

Dont think you will find a much lower rate for the loan term you are looking for except possibly through a dealer. Take the USAA offer with you and see if the dealer can beat it.

2/19/2015 8:56:11 AM

To the people that say that you should finance because Invested rate > Borrow Rate:

1. That situation really only applies to people who have enough money to pay cash upfront. It does not apply to people who need to finance because they can only afford a monthly payment style of purchasing. A majority of people aren't in this situation.

2. That simple formula does not factor in risk at all. If you are a person with cash upfront and chose to invest your car money and finance a vehicle and then lose income, most of the time this will result in a lack of ability to follow through with the investing. At worst you won't be able to invest or pay the car note. Thus you need to have cash upfront and reserves behind that to cover the rest of your expenses should you lose income - rarified air for most of America.

3. Someone mentioned Dave Ramsey. You have to remember he is suggesting you buy for cash at the very low end, balancing reliability and cost. Also, I interpret his call to pay cash upfront to be survival advice as opposed to true investing strategy. If you can qualify for points 1&2 above and are a dedicated investor, then sure finance a car and make a few bucks. For most people it makes more sense to minimize risk and buy beaters for cash repeatedly until they can afford to pay cash for a nicer vehicle.

2/19/2015 9:44:40 AM

1. Sure, if you're buying the car today, but if you're thinking about buying it in the future, then this def comes into play.

2.

Quote :

"most of the time this will result in a lack of ability to follow through with the investing"

So, the idea is sound, but you/America don't have enough self control to follow through.?

3.

Quote :

"If you can qualify for points 1&2 above and are a dedicated investor, then sure finance a car and make a few bucks. For most people it makes more sense to minimize risk "

Most people our age, it does not make sense to minimize risk. Would you also avoid investing in a 401k/ira to prepay your mortgage?

2/19/2015 10:20:54 AM

Quote :

" 1. Sure, if you're buying the car today, but if you're thinking about buying it in the future, then this def comes into play."

Read your comment a couple times and am not sure what you are getting at here. Can you elaborate?

Let's forget about the car for a moment, I would not borrow money from the bank to invest just because the borrow rate is lower than my expected return rate. Financing a car purely for that reason is essentially the same idea with the exception that the car will depreciate faster than the cash.

Quote :

"So, the idea is sound, but you/America don't have enough self control to follow through.? "

I meant that if you lose your income you loose your ability to invest so that you are able to keep making the vehicle payment and/or living expenses - unless you have reserves on top of "car money" that you chose to invest.

Quote :

"Most people our age, it does not make sense to minimize risk. Would you also avoid investing in a 401k/ira to prepay your mortgage?"

I don't think I fully agree with you about not minimizing risk at our age. I think it is a balance that changes with age for sure. Also if you have a family that definitely changes the calculation.

I believe that Dave Ramsey espouses investing 15% while paying down your house as fast as possible.

Personally, I am about to buy my first home in the near future and have the ability to pay cash if I so choose while still maxing 401k etc. Haven't made my mind up yet how I will handle the purchase.

[Edited on February 19, 2015 at 12:25 PM. Reason : ]

2/19/2015 12:23:48 PM

If I could get a margin loan at the same APR as an auto loan, I'd strongly consider borrowing money to invest.

2/19/2015 1:49:36 PM

Quote :

"Read your comment a couple times and am not sure what you are getting at here. Can you elaborate?"

I mean, if you're buying a car right now and don't have the money then this is clearly a non-issue, however if you plan on buying one next year and intend to divert money from investing into some sort of car fund, then this scenario comes into play.

Quote :

"I would not borrow money from the bank to invest just because the borrow rate is lower than my expected return rate. "

We're not talking about a 9% loan here. We're talking about rates so low even a fool could make money through long term investing, even with a very conservative approach.

Quote :

"I meant that if you lose your income you loose your ability to invest"

Is this English? Are you talking about getting laid off from your job or something?

Quote :

"I believe that Dave Ramsey espouses"

Fuck Dave Ramsey and his god awful advice

Quote :

"still maxing 401k"

Are you one of those people who keeps their 401k in some crap money market account, otherwise you're not "minimizing risk"...

2/19/2015 3:23:37 PM

Quote :

"I mean, if you're buying a car right now and don't have the money then this is clearly a non-issue, however if you plan on buying one next year and intend to divert money from investing into some sort of car fund, then this scenario comes into play."

Ok. I am not sure how your scenario does not fit with what I originally said. If you mean divert as in removing $25k from mutual funds to buy a $25k car, then like I said you are one of the rare people than can afford to pay with cash. You would then be in position to weigh the advantages of investing the nut and financing the vehicle. I am just trying to say that the people that can do this are in the vast minority. It is not constructive advice to give to the majority.

If you mean divert in the sense that you invest $400 a month but would need to stop investing that money to afford a $400 monthly payment then you are financing because you can't afford it otherwise - not because it makes better money sense to do so.

Quote :

"We're not talking about a 9% loan here. We're talking about rates so low even a fool could make money through long term investing, even with a very conservative approach."

I will give you that but caution that the length of a car loan is borderline for consideration as long term investing.

Quote :

"Is this English? Are you talking about getting laid off from your job or something?"

Sorry about the one extra "o" in "loose your ability to invest". Yes, if you lose your job and income it is plausible that normal living expenses and the financed vehicle will force you to dip into your investments to survive. It happens all the time.

Quote :

"Fuck Dave Ramsey and his god awful advice"

You asked if I would follow the line of logic from vehicle to home and I was attempting to show that even someone you completely disagree with would at the very least invest and pay down a home loan at the same time.

Quote :

"Are you one of those people who keeps their 401k in some crap money market account, otherwise you're not "minimizing risk"..."

If we look at your statement outside of a vacuum, I disagree. Aggressively investing money you do have is much less risky than borrowing money (to spend on a car) you don't have. In a vacuum, yes, investing is riskier than a pile of cash.


Look, I am not saying that it is not possible to profit from borrowing to buy a car. What I am saying is that, despite the simple formula, it is not a scenario that applies to the majority of people. I am also saying that I incorporate risk tolerance in addition the X>Y formula.

I can tell that your risk tolerance is higher than mine from your responses. That is OK. All other things being equal, you are likely to be wealthier than me in the long run. On the other hand, I am less likely to be negatively impacted by debt should something unforeseen happen. There are many ways to skin the cat - personally I am a proponent of minimizing debt where possible.



[Edited on February 19, 2015 at 4:30 PM. Reason : ]

2/19/2015 4:24:38 PM

Quote :

"If you mean divert in the sense that you invest $400 a month but would need to stop investing that money to afford a $400 monthly payment then you are financing because you can't afford it otherwise - not because it makes better money sense to do so."

That's what I meant. If I had a $400 a month car payment, then yeah, that money would have to come from somewhere. If I changed my investments from $1500 a month to $1100 a month how on earth does that imply I am financing because I "can't afford it" ?

Quote :

" Yes, if you lose your job and income it is plausible that normal living expenses and the financed vehicle will force you to dip into your investments to survive. It happens all the time."

This is one of the very good reasons you should finance. You are more liquid and have more flexibility in case you do lose your job. It's why the term "house poor" exists. Also retirement accounts are usually safe from bankruptcy if you want to go even further down that route.

Quote :

"Look, I am not saying that it is not possible to profit from borrowing to buy a car. What I am saying is that, despite the simple formula, it is not a scenario that applies to the majority of people."

If the formula is so simple then why shouldn't the majority of American's apply it? There are other risk factors you don't account for as well. I mean, if you save up to buy a house, you risk mortgage rates going up, inflation, home values rising, etc etc etc. Why not borrow money now when its cheap by comparison?

Quote :

"I am less likely to be negatively impacted by debt should something unforeseen happen"

What's the logic here? If you get laid off you don't have a car payment to worry about vs me, who will have a car payment, but tons of cash on hand because I didn't blow my entire cash reserves on some car...

2/19/2015 4:45:48 PM

I will counterpoint this last time and you take the last word if you like for the sake of this not going on forever.

Quote :

"That's what I meant. If I had a $400 a month car payment, then yeah, that money would have to come from somewhere. If I changed my investments from $1500 a month to $1100 a month how on earth does that imply I am financing because I "can't afford it" ?"

I am assuming the $1500 to be non-retirement (401k, IRA, etc.) investing so you are liquid enough to pay the note in a lost job scenario. Liquid investing at $1500/month indicates you can most likely pay cash for your vehicle. See original point #1.

Quote :

"This is one of the very good reasons you should finance. You are more liquid and have more flexibility in case you do lose your job. It's why the term "house poor" exists. Also retirement accounts are usually safe from bankruptcy if you want to go even further down that route."

Since we are talking about financing a car specifically, I will replace "House Poor" with "Vehicle Poor". "House poor" or "Vehicle Poor" is a function of affordability. If you buy too much house or car you will be house or vehicle poor whether you have monthly payments or pay upfront. Going back to financing a car, if your investments are in retirement funds (protected from bankruptcy per you) they aren't liquid enough to pay off your vehicle in a lost job scenario.

Quote :

"If the formula is so simple then why shouldn't the majority of American's apply it? There are other risk factors you don't account for as well. I mean, if you save up to buy a house, you risk mortgage rates going up, inflation, home values rising, etc etc etc. Why not borrow money now when its cheap by comparison?"

The math formula is simple but doesn't account for all the variables - so it is an incomplete formula when people simply say cheaply borrowed money can be leveraged with investing. That is exactly half my point. The other half of my point is that the majority of Americans should not apply it because they don't meet the criteria to successfully utilize the formula, as I originally posted.

Quote :

"What's the logic here? If you get laid off you don't have a car payment to worry about vs me, who will have a car payment, but tons of cash on hand because I didn't blow my entire cash reserves on some car..."

What if we got fired when the market was down (Feb 2009) Say we both bought the same cars in Oct 2007 at the height of the bubble. I paid cash equivalent up front for what cost you $400 per month. I put the $400 per month into investments every month while you spent the same amount on your car note. You were able to keep the full cost of the car in your previously held investments. Both our investments take a bath when the market drops 50% in 15 months.

You would have to sell very low to come up with the cash (the original premise is that you kept the money not spent upfront on the car in investments to make a profit off borrowing). You may even still be under water after liquidating all the investments acquired or held for the roughly $24k we both started out with.

Meanwhile I have a few options. I can keep the car or i can sell it. I can downgrade to a cheaper vehicle free and clear and have extra money to cover living expenses or even have it to buy low into the market.


Either way we are both better off than the person who finances the same $24k car with no upfront money. My main original point was that you shouldn't tell someone with no upfront money in either investments or cash that it makes sense to borrow money because the current interest rates are lower than what you can make on the market. It might be true in theory but not feasible for that particular person. I also contend that the majority is made up of these particular people.

2/20/2015 11:32:48 AM

Quote :

"would you borrow money from the bank to invest in stocks just because the borrow rate is lower than the expected return rate?"

I agree with Kyle, but I understand David's arguments.

I don't like a bunch of debt hanging over me and prefer to minimize the portion of my monthly income allocated to paying off loans. I prefer to have flexibility in how I spend my money in case of unforeseen expenses (like another expensive medical episode or since I may buy a new house and need to save money for another down payment since I may use my current house as an investment property).

2/20/2015 12:21:31 PM

Quote :

"I am assuming the $1500 to be non-retirement (401k, IRA, etc.) investing so you are liquid enough to pay the note in a lost job scenario."

No, that's retirement investing. If I lose my job I'm worried about my mortgage, electric bill, and not a car payment. I want to remain as liquid as possible so I can prioritize buying groceries over making a car payment.

Quote :

"The math formula is simple but doesn't account for all the variables - so it is an incomplete formula when people simply say cheaply borrowed money can be leveraged with investing. That is exactly half my point. The other half of my point is that the majority of Americans should not apply it because they don't meet the criteria to successfully utilize the formula, as I originally posted."

So it's multivariable incomplete formula, yet you describe it as simple?
1. Leverage debt
2. Buy s&p 500 index fund
3. Profit

How is that difficult?

Quote :

"What if we got fired "

Every arg of yours essentially goes back to the assumption one will be unemployed for a long period of time. Statistically, you're better off investing 25K now (finance car 100%) vs investing $400 a month the next five years (don't finance car) I refuse to live my life under the assumption I will be unemployed for a long period of time. Also, for the record, you can withdraw the amount you've contributed to a roth ira at any time penalty-free and tax-free.

2/20/2015 12:28:20 PM

Well, I will stick to my word and leave it at that. I tried to formulate my responses without denigrating yours. (I didn't take offense to your posts either) Hopefully they read on your end with the respect I intended.

GG

[Edited on February 20, 2015 at 12:42 PM. Reason : no offense]

2/20/2015 12:38:27 PM

Quote :

"1.49 used? Damn. That was a nice score."

Yeah, there was a window where it got down that low (assuming credit score requirements met, etc). Pretty much a no brainer!

Quote :

"To the people that say that you should finance because Invested rate > Borrow Rate: 1. That situation really only applies to people who have enough money to pay cash upfront. It does not apply to people who need to finance because they can only afford a monthly payment style of purchasing. A majority of people aren't in this situation. 2. That simple formula does not factor in risk at all. If you are a person with cash upfront and chose to invest your car money and finance a vehicle and then lose income, most of the time this will result in a lack of ability to follow through with the investing. At worst you won't be able to invest or pay the car note. Thus you need to have cash upfront and reserves behind that to cover the rest of your expenses should you lose income - rarified air for most of America. 3. Someone mentioned Dave Ramsey. "

1. No shit, obviously if you can't pay cash and have to finance, there is nothing to discuss, other than the possibility of buying something that you CAN pay cash for, or at least pretty close. At such low interest rates, even then, you'd probably be better off building your cash reserves rather than blowing your last dollar and then ending up putting contingencies on a credit card.

2. Of course. That isn't as easily quantified, but it's a factor. There's also inflation, which is probably as much as most good car loan rates these days...making it really effectively a zero-interest environment on the purchase.

It may be rarified air for most of America, but it SHOULDN'T be terribly uncommon for 30-somethings with college degrees.

3. Fuck Dave Ramsey. He's bad advice, tailored for simple-minded people. The good advice isn't rocket surgery; we shouldn't accept dumbing it down so much. Sure, he's better than living paycheck-to-pacycheck and drowning in debt, but why not follow actual smart advice?

There's also a balance between financing and deprecation vs maintenance costs (and for some, opportunity costs incurred if they lose out on work due to a broken down car).

Quote :

"Most people our age, it does not make sense to minimize risk. Would you also avoid investing in a 401k/ira to prepay your mortgage?"

Paying extra on a mortgage blows my mind...I cannot imagine paying extra on something that is financed at or near inflation rates, is generally appreciating over time, and has tax deductible interest. Completely insane.

Quote :

"I believe that Dave Ramsey espouses investing 15% while paying down your house as fast as possible. Personally, I am about to buy my first home in the near future and have the ability to pay cash if I so choose while still maxing 401k etc. Haven't made my mind up yet how I will handle the purchase."

Dude, for your financial health, shitcan the Dave Ramsey stuff, and please don't pay cash for your house. I have 2 mortgages; both were VA loans with not a single penny put down. I'm considering buying a 3rd house (duplex to serve as investment property + crash pad near my job); I will probably have to do a conventional loan on this one, but you can bet that I will not put down a cent more than I need to for avoiding PMI, and I won't pay a cent more than needed every month, and I would finance it for 50 years instead of 30 if they'd let me, probably.





As far as risk tolerance at our age goes, I just started a new job this week after a period of unemployment following my resignation from the Marine Corps. I will have a [/b]4.5 month[/b] period of unemployment, receiving zero pay except $275/week in unemployment benefits, and a total of 5 months before drawing my first paycheck at my new job. I am not married; I have nobody else to fall back on. I exhausted my checking account and have a couple thousand on a credit card that I'll have to pull money from savings in order to pay off. That's it...and the only reason I even have to do that is because I spent a few thousand bucks on building materials for a workshop once I accepted a job offer. I still had thousands left to spare in cash until I did that, knowing I had it made. I never had to sell a stock. In fact, I kept making the exact same monthly transfers from checking to my investment accounts the whole time I was unemployed.

You know what's conservative? Putting away a shitload of money consistently over time and amassing enough that you can ride out a storm. I would way rather be in the situation I was in than having way less cash on hand and having to take out home equity loans or sell a [paid off] vehicle or something, or sell stocks/funds because I had used all my cash on paying off a loan at 3.75% where I can deduct the interest, anyway (making it effectively like <3%, which is free or even better than free when you consider inflation.

Quote :

"I am just trying to say that the people that can do this are in the vast minority. It is not constructive advice to give to the majority. "

Dude...I started buying vehicles with cash when I was like...27? 28? Oh, and I was buying stocks like you read about at the same time (like probably $1000/month), AND had just spent the first couple of rounds of thousands of dollars on legal bills in a custody fight...as a Marine Lieutenant (and then as a brand-new Captain). I made decent money, but it's not like I was making shitloads in some unicorn job. If I did it, lots of people can do it.

Quote :

"I will give you that but caution that the length of a car loan is borderline for consideration as long term investing."

Depreciation curve vs your remaining principle on a car is fairly predictable. You can sell pretty much whenever. It is not quite stocks and their relatively volatility.

That said, that's even MORE reason. If you are looking at it as a longish-term time horizon, you can almost certainly do much better with even conservative stock investing (where you need a long timeframe to be safe) vs the car, where you're basically earning basically nothing (3% car loan; 3% inflation).

Quote :

"I am also saying that I incorporate risk tolerance in addition the X>Y formula. "

We do too; we're saying that even with that in mind, the deck is overwhelmingly stacked towards it being smarter to borrow the money when interest rates are so low. In a different environment, we'd be paying cash more.

Quote :

"I don't like a bunch of debt hanging over me"

If you can pay it off easily anytime you want, it's more like "leverage" than "debt", in practical terms. Numbers are numbers. To the extent you can, I think you should tailor your emotions to the numbers, not the numbers to your emotions. Sure, you shouldn't make yourself miserable and add too much stress to your life if your personality just can't deal with it, but if it's simply a matter of thinking about it and viewing it from a different vantage point, that might help.

Quote :

"Fuck Dave Ramsey and his god awful advice"

Haha, you beat me to it.


KyleAtState, I'm not trying to be a dick, and certainly, people have different risk tolerances and priorities. That is not going to change, and that's fine. I'm just pointing out that even with that in mind, I think you and others would do well to stay much more in David0603 and my direction. I don't mean the options trading and the buying stock on margin (which I don't even do). I just mean that (A) Yes, you can do this stuff...amassing tons of wealth, saving gobs of cash, and stock investing is not just for the lucky sperm club. Normal people totally can do it, and (B) Debt is only a 4-letter word when it comes to spelling. Debt is like many things, it can be good, or it can be bad. It is easily abused and has a bad reputation and negative connotation, but with a little discipline and basic understanding, it can be a valuable tool. Any debt I carry is not to buy anything I couldn't otherwise afford (well, maybe the 2nd and 3rd houses). ALL of it (to include the houses) is leverage to enable me to make money, put most simply. Big companies with millions or billions of dollars in cash often have tons of debt, too. People take out loans to start their own businesses. I finance my car and houses when the market conditions make it advantageous to do so (and pay cash when they don't).

2/20/2015 9:24:17 PM