Assuming you've had a unit replaced, please share:

Brand
Tonnage
Type - split, gas, combo, etc
Seer
Price fully installed

Both of my systems shit the bed and want better guesstimates of what to get and pricing.

6/22/2015 10:08:38 PM

the margins in HVAC replacements are ridiculously high. as long as there's no ductwork mods, you can save a pile by buying online and either finding an HVAC tech friend or doing it yourself.

6/22/2015 11:03:53 PM

Had a Trane system put in during 2010. Heat pump, air handler, all new duct-work for $5500. 1400 sq feet house...can't remember SEER etc. I know a guy there if you end up wanting something they offer.

6/22/2015 11:15:20 PM

You probably know this, but you don't want to get an oversized unit for your sq foot... a system that's too big won't remove the humidity properly, and one that's too small won't heat/cool properly.

You can also get fancier ones with specific dehumidifying modes too.

I just moved to a place with gas heat, from only having heat pumps my whole life, and the gas heat seems to be much more efficient.

6/23/2015 1:22:08 AM

What are your major concerns... reliability or energy ?

I can tell you this... after you go above 16/17 seer there is a lot more computer control involved and that means there is a lot more that can fail on the unit.

NRR is right...

Depending on who you talk to you can go from 2k to 5k for a very similar unit.

Another thing to think about is my guys actually like goodwin units because you can get parts for them almost everywhere as opposed to some of the more proprietary brands.

6/23/2015 8:01:49 AM

Had to replace my HVAC unit last summer. Gas furnace/standard AC combo. My dad is very handy so I was gonna look into buying one and taking a weekend with him to install it but it wasn't that easy. It may just be my local area (North Alabama) but apparently there is some kind of weird HVAC mafia going on where you can only buy them through "authorized dealers", and those dealers require that you have them install it for you. I thought that this was just some stupid BS one company was trying to pull but after looking into it more and talking to some folks, everyone had the same issue. Whatever.

Anyway, got a Daikin. 2.5 ton I think? 1700 sq ft house. It was about $6000 fully installed, and that included a crazy coupon I found online for like $1000 off. The good news at least is that it came with a 20 year warranty.

6/23/2015 8:53:41 AM

It's because you're supposed to be licensed to do the work.

prohibiting sale to someone without a license, knowing that refrigerant is involved is kind of a CYA move.

6/23/2015 9:45:16 AM

but plenty of people install their own and then hire someone to charge it

6/23/2015 9:48:46 AM

What is the application? (i'm assuming with multiple units it's either multi-level town house or stand-alone house and not a condo)

Do you currently have gas on site? Do you have an R-22 system that you would be willing to upgrade to a R-410? What is your square footage? How far (est.) are your indoor units from your outdoor?

Quote :

"I just moved to a place with gas heat, from only having heat pumps my whole life, and the gas heat seems to be much more efficient."

I've also seen these get a year or two more life out of the compressor since you're reducing it's run time.

6/23/2015 10:37:25 AM

If you're having trouble buying a unit without a license, go online

6/23/2015 11:16:28 AM

My downstairs unit is a gas/AC combo. it is a 3 ton unit. Was a trane and is 17 years old. I'll likely put in a Bryant or equivalent brand (Carrier made). I think it will likely run $5-5,500. My upstairs unit is 2 tons and is on its last leg - also a trane. I'm hoping there is some saving to getting both done now versus one now and one next year. Once they give me the price for both, I'll ask them if there is any additional savings for cash (I don't care if I pay with bills or a check, as it is the same for me), but I've found that i can get 10% savings by doing so.

Just trying to make sure I'm in the right ball park and determine whether I should go with a 14/16/18 seer unit. I plan on being in the house 20+ years, but don't know if I want to pay for something with a 10-15 year payback period when the typical unit lasts 10-12 years nowadays...

6/23/2015 1:26:30 PM

Quote :

"typical unit lasts 10-12 years nowadays..."

I can't imagine that's accurate.

6/23/2015 2:02:02 PM

DB sounds like you're right in the pocket to me.

It depends how they achieve the high seer values. when they start doing variable refrigerant flow and variable frequency drives (variable speed fans and sometimes compressors) on home units the up front $ goes up and the propensity for failure also does. Trane and carrier are both good units. Lennox control boards seem to go out more than others.


10-12 years sounds right here and goes down to ~ 5 as you get closer to the coast.

Remember that this time of year they WILL (try to) charge you 1-2k extra because everyone is so busy and it's so hot out.

I doubt anyone with mess with price more than ~250 for getting 2 units (what you'll really be saving is not paying that OMFG it's hot fee twice)

Going from r-22 to 410 make sure they replace the line set. 410 usually requires larger lines and the "line flush" isn't that great and could still cause issues in the long term.

/ my .02

6/23/2015 2:42:48 PM

Brand: Rheem
Tonnage: 2.0
Type: gas pack
Seer: 16
Price fully installed: $5850, then later got $490 in rebates from Progress

6/23/2015 4:34:44 PM

buy whatever has the best warranty

6/23/2015 4:36:09 PM

Ours has settled into a pattern on these hot days. Everything is fine up until about 5:30PM, then the AC starts alternating between blowing room temperature air and will on occasion start blowing cool air. The temperature of the house will go up 3 to 4 degrees and hold there. Then the AC starts bringing the temps down again at about 10PM. During this fail to cool period the fan never turns off, the system runs nonstop.

Only when it gets to about 95 degrees or over outside... so every single day apparently.

One guy came out, said everything checked out. I wasn't home so I have no idea what they checked. They didn't charge us though, so I tend to take them at their word. Their bottom line, we'd need a separate until for upstairs, our unit just can't keep up in this heat.

No real problems in years past, but we did have some trees cut, we're in a lot less shade now.

Still it pisses me off. We're good if the temps stay in the low 90s but that doesn't appear to be a thing this year.

[Edited on June 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM. Reason : -]

6/23/2015 5:39:25 PM

North Carolina energy code makes ac systems be designed for 75 degree indoor temp and 95 degree outdoor temp. Shading and falling between tonnage increments is the only thing that really allows your house to do better than that.

6/23/2015 7:20:09 PM

Had the entire system from my house gutted and replaced in 2014.

My house is 1 story (with a partial basement) and about 2,000 sqft, poorly insulated, high ceilings, and lots of windows. Replaced all the ducting, returns etc... so pretty expensive.

Installed unit is an American Standard 4 Ton, 18 SEER fully variable zoned system (4 zones covering the house). Also added AccuClean central air filter ($1200). Full price was right at $15k for the entire system.

So far it has been fantastic, no issues with heating during the winter and it's keeping the house comfortable. Consumer Reports ranked them the highest, and that's one reason I went with it. The zoned system was actually cheaper for my type of house, as I would have needed 3 compressors, 3 air handlers, etc... going a more conventional route.

6/23/2015 7:34:27 PM

it better be fantastic at $15k for 4 tons of cooling

[Edited on June 23, 2015 at 7:44 PM. Reason : ]

6/23/2015 7:43:42 PM

Might have been 5 Ton... can't remember. But it was a LOT of ducting -- that's a big part of the cost.
Everything is crawl space, and it was a ton of work taking the old out, and putting the new in.

Took about 2 weeks for the entire job, so...

6/23/2015 7:51:44 PM

I'm on the coast and our 14 yr old American Standard compressor has seen better days. It is able to get the house down to around 74 over night but starting around 10:30 over the past few weeks once the sun starts hitting the outdoor unit the compressor starts cutting out. System was a 4 zone that someone converted to a 1 zone for some reason, 4 ton condenser with 5 ton air handler, R4 ducts. House is a 2300 sq ft ranch with frog.

I've asked for quotes and opinions to put the system back to a 4 zone which will require new dampers and 3 new thermostats. Control wiring is still in place. Refrigerant line will be replaced, 14 SEER.

I have quotes of $7500, ~$8500, and $11,400.

Because of the huge tax incentives I was looking at geothermal until I got the $37k quote on it. That guy did the J calcs and said we need a 5 ton system which is a bit surprising. Even as a 1 zone with a pinched return line for who knows how long on one of the zones and a 12 SEER system the house seemed to heat and cool just fine with what I thought were reasonable bills - average ~$150. The geo guy was the only one to take the time to measure the house and do the load calcs. I didn't get a chance to ask him if he calculated worst case. With the tax credits I'd be looking at ~$17.5 installed and even if I managed $1000/yr in savings (I'm thinking $500-750 is more realistic) it is only then around break-even on an air-air.

I have one more quote for geo and a traditional air-air.

6/23/2015 9:11:52 PM

Eeek well that's a cluster!

Condensor should always be the bigger piece of equipment if possible.

Geo guy did the full load because of the capital involved and with geo you get a bit of leeway to over size the system. Truth is oversizing a system can shorten it's life by starting and stoping it too much but if he doesn't to the work in the well field the first time it's expensive to do it twice.

Also being near the coast you probably have a cool breeze off the water that they shouldn't take into consideration while sizing your hvac system because it could change.

6/24/2015 5:51:33 AM

Ended up with 2 aggressive quotes, one for Trane and one for Bryant (Carrier).

Both were very similar.

3 ton unit downstairs (14 seer) gas combo
2 ton split system upstairs

$10,500 installed (Bryant) for both including an additional new vent at the top of my stairs (all bedrooms have 2 vents, but none in the small hallway where the return and thermostat are. gets hot b/c I have a large 2 story foyeur and den)

$11,000 (Trane), same as above.

Guy at $10,500 lent me window units to take the bite off the 86 degree indoor temperature until he can come on Tuesday to install both systems. I also had to expand my "deck" where my combo unit sits, as new ones are larger and don't abut the house. Finished that yesterday.

I think if I went the traditional route of a larger HVAC company, the prices would have been in the $13-15K range for both systems.

Ultimately, I'm using True Service Heating & Air out of Garner. They are great folks. They are very competitive for 14 seer units, reasonably for 16 seer units. Long story short, given a 10-12 year life span, I don't think I'd save enough money to justify going with the higher seer and variable speeds (more parts to fail and more $$$ to fix)

6/25/2015 8:45:55 AM

yeah my guys said that's actually a good price considering the recent heat etc.

That would be their old company's "winter price"

6/25/2015 2:10:53 PM

I'm in commercial real estate - used True Service to replace a unit in a commercial building my family owns and have referred numerous folks to both groups that gave me quotes. I find it very helpful to remind them that you've sent them business, can continue to do so and pay promptly. This ensures that they are responsive when I have an issue.

6/25/2015 2:59:31 PM

I work for the county and have 66 tradesmen (with 40 some licenses for mech elect and plum) that work for me and usually are willing to help out with side jobs but i try not to pimp them out to friends unless i don't let on that they work for me because i don't like to be in the middle of that stuff.

[Edited on June 25, 2015 at 4:23 PM. Reason : .]

6/25/2015 4:22:31 PM

I have a 2011 high efficiency Lennox system and it is always broke down.

Stupid shit too, like a zone control damper is broken because the motor uses string to connect the motor to the damper.

In extreme cold the condensate would not drain which caused the heat not to run, the part that fixed it was redesigned but there was no service bulletin posted so the tech took weeks to figure out what it needed.

6/25/2015 6:05:11 PM

why is it making condensate with the heat on ?

i, too have lennox with zone dampers and its a 19 seer or some crap...

not too stoked about it but came with the house.

6/26/2015 7:34:55 AM

I actually own a medium sized hvac company in Greensboro and can help if you all have any questions. 90+ % efficient gas furnaces condensate. If yours is in the attic and is turning your furnace off in the winter that is normally due to condensate in the drain line freezing up and not allowing it to drain. This can be fixed by wrapping the pvc out of your house with heat tape.

6/26/2015 9:06:44 AM

Quote :

"why is it making condensate with the heat on ?"

Flue gas condensation maybe? I've heard on the high efficiency furnaces this can be an issue (less heat lost out the flue).

[Edited on June 26, 2015 at 10:10 AM. Reason : ^ what he said]

6/26/2015 10:08:12 AM

How much of a price change should there be to go from a 3 ton gas combo unit to a 3.5?

Do you normally charge folks to do a load calculation?

6/27/2015 10:43:44 PM

As others have say, bigger is not necessarily better. ANY HVAC PRO SHOULD DO A LOAD CALC. I wouldn't go with anyone who wouldn't. We had a 3 ton carrier builder grade (1996) that was a pile of shit. The upstairs would be in the low 80s even on mildly warm days until late in the evening. I, too, thought it was because the unit was undersized. The crew that did the work said that 3 ton was the correct size, and the ducting work, along with a new unit, was going to fix my problems. They were correct. Night and day difference. The hottest the upstairs will get it around 75 on VERY hot days.

Conversely, my wife's old townhome had an oversized unit. It would short cycle all the time, and the humidity was too high. So, bigger isn't better unless that is what the load calc states.

6/28/2015 2:19:46 PM

Had a load calc done and it said 3.5 ton for downstairs. Previous owners finished some of the basement and tied it in to the existing system without changing the size.

6/28/2015 2:27:39 PM

NCSUALUM, how much scrap value do you get out of a combo unit and a split system?

6/28/2015 2:28:55 PM

We offer free estimates and do load calculations for free. I do not leave the calc with the homeowner unless they purchase the system(don't want to do anthers companies work for them)

Scrap metal values range greatly based on going rate of copper. We keep all the old units and once we get a ton we cut out the old coils and copper and scrap them all.

6/29/2015 10:18:12 PM

Rheem
2.5
Gas Pack
14 / Afue 80
8500

That included:
All gas lines run from the meter - HVAC, Hot Water and Stove (gas conversion)
All new ductwork - 13 supplies, 2 returns (1 new return cut and installed)

6/30/2015 4:38:12 PM

Quote :

"Flue gas condensation maybe? I've heard on the high efficiency furnaces this can be an issue (less heat lost out the flue)."

This is it, its a widely known issue now. The problem is Lennox redesigned the part that was causing the condensate to back up, but did not issue a recall or service bulletin so the tech was left to figure it out on his own over multiple trips.

The whole winter was hell. I survived using this, despite having one of their "best" furnaces.

6/30/2015 10:51:30 PM

Got more quotes in. The first geothermal at 37k was a 5 ton Water Furnace system. Got another for a 4 ton system with a Bosch pump for 27k + 3k for zoning, which is actually within a range that has me seriously considering it. Same guy quoted me air-air, 15 SEER Trane XR15, variable speed fan, new lines, new pad, and one of tranes better zoning systems using modulated dampers and air pressure sensors for 11k.

Interestingly, in describing the problems with our existing system the guy that generated those quotes had a problem solvers curiosity to understand what was wrong with my system that 2 other guys couldn't figure out.

Basically this was the sequence:
In January I noticed fan wasn't running properly. Tech A replaced the capacitor and things went back to normal. A month and a half ago when it started warming up I again noticed fan wasn't running properly. Tech A concluded fan was bad and replaced fan with a fan that wasn't the same part number as the original but was supposedly sized properly. A few weeks ago when it really started to heat up I would notice that sometimes the fan wasn't running and sometimes the compressor wasn't running. Tech A again tried to troubleshoot but against my advice to come out during the heat of the day he came out in the morning and concluded things looked ok and to keep an eye on it and call him. Tech A also informed me he was working 12 hr night shifts and would prove hard to get ahold of. I called Tech B after the boss lady (aka, my wife) got impatient and Tech B concluded the defrost board was probably bad and wanted to replace it. I had told him the recent history of the unit and he even called the home office to have them check that the capacitor was sized properly. They told him it was. What he failed to realize and what I didn't catch was he gave the home office the part number for the outside unit as if the fan hadn't been replaced. He left my house and 30 minutes later I had him back out there when the fan was running but the compressor wasn't. He then concluded the compressor was bad and it probably was time for a new system. The third guy took all my information and checked everything properly and was the one that figured out the cap size wasn't correct for the fan which was causing the fan to shut down. This let the compressor overheat causing it to shut down. Simply, changing the cap for a correct sized unit has fixed everything apparently.

My current task is to convince my wife why we don't need to act now to replace this system that is probably good to go for at least months now so I can have some more time to get the best deal for us instead of the one that "just gets the damn house cold now!" I'm really digging the idea of geothermal and I think the cost at year 10 should be even with air to air. Just not sure if there are some unknowns about going geothermal that could be expensive issues down the road.



[Edited on June 30, 2015 at 11:37 PM. Reason : a]

6/30/2015 11:33:20 PM

At your age are you sure you will be in the same house that long?

7/1/2015 4:52:03 AM

If you go the water-to-air route, get a closed loop system.

7/1/2015 3:14:42 PM

^^ How long is "that long"

I'm at such a station in life given my skills and family situation baring something out of my control - which for me would be a BRAC, natural disaster, or terminal illness - we are here relatively indefinitely. We love it here.

7/1/2015 6:21:40 PM