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 Message Boards » » So...who is, or is considering, voting for Trump? Page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... 40, Prev Next  
NeuseRvrRat
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Not if it violates another right. For example, we can only grant a positive right to healthcare by enslaving doctors and violating their rights.

5/18/2016 6:53:32 AM

beatsunc
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^we do it for trial by jury

of course would need a constitutional amendment

5/18/2016 8:09:53 AM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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And I don't think we should.

5/18/2016 8:14:02 AM

beatsunc
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^you dont think people have right to trial by jury?

5/18/2016 8:22:08 AM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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I don't think we have a right to conscript jurors

5/18/2016 8:24:47 AM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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This is a very complex topic and there is an endless amount of material out there you can read on the subject.

The 6th Amendment, as it is written, does establish positive rights.

5/18/2016 8:38:28 AM

dtownral
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by the way dude, I really enjoy your website: http://freeinhabitant.info/

5/18/2016 8:45:02 AM

shoot
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Trump is more and more like a red emperor now. He likes wearing red ties.

Look at the women surrounding him. He will bring America into a whole new era.







[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 10:17 AM. Reason : red tie]

5/18/2016 10:16:58 AM

beatsunc
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https://youtu.be/ixSLDLokubo

red state update makin fun of trump publicist deal was kinda funny

5/18/2016 11:41:46 AM

synapse
play so hard
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Quote :
"we can only grant a positive right to healthcare by enslaving doctors and violating their rights."


do tell

5/18/2016 11:49:19 AM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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Tell me how you can guarantee healthcare services without conscripting physicians.

5/18/2016 12:05:58 PM

wdprice3
BinaryBuffonary
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I don't know that guarantee is the correct word.

5/18/2016 12:23:21 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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Choose your own word, then. Just tell me how you fulfill a right to healthcare without conscripting physicians.

5/18/2016 12:30:30 PM

wdprice3
BinaryBuffonary
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as long as a health care system, and its sub components exist, everyone has an equal right of access to such services.

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 12:32 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2016 12:32:09 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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The right to access is something totally different. If you were to say "no one shall be deprived of access to healthcare services", then that would be a negative right. How is anyone being deprived of access now?

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 12:46 PM. Reason : Hd]

5/18/2016 12:45:28 PM

wdprice3
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I mean, the most obvious.... can't afford it? you deserve to die.

5/18/2016 12:52:30 PM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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Just trying to work through these things logically.

So if the problem is they can't afford it, who should pay for it? Either the physician must provide it for free or someone else must pay.

5/18/2016 12:55:43 PM

rwoody
Save TWW
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The citizens? The same people that pay for protection of every other right we claim?

5/18/2016 1:10:46 PM

wdprice3
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Quote :
"So if the problem is they can't afford it, who should pay for it? Either the physician must provide it for free or someone else must pay."


ERMRGRD, SOSHORISM

5/18/2016 1:29:49 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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This is not just paying to protect a right. This is paying to secure the right. As in, the right does not exist unless doctors work for free or someone else pays. Who should decide how much the citizens are willing to pay a doctor for his service? Who sets the price for the service?

5/18/2016 1:31:36 PM

wdprice3
BinaryBuffonary
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You have the right an attorney...

5/18/2016 1:37:15 PM

dtownral
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let's just go ahead and take a full dive into maritime law

5/18/2016 1:49:57 PM

rjrumfel
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Quote :
"The citizens? The same people that pay for protection of every other right we claim?"


Let's take a look at some of the careers that the citizens pay for, and how much they make:

Police officers: 31739 (avg in NC)
Firefighters: Between 35000 and 44000 (avg in NC)
Soldiers: Too many differences to list, but an E6 brings in from 33000 to 34000
TSA Agents: Between 25000 and 34000

Now let's look at average pay scales for doctors:

GP: 189,000
general surgeon: 215,000
anesthesiologist: 300,000
cardiologist: 512,000
pediatrician: 175,000

So you're telling us that people have a right to those services provided by doctors, and that the citizens should fund those types of salaries?

5/18/2016 2:00:35 PM

dtownral
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can we hold up a second here, i have a question

rjrumfel, do you really think that is a good and logical argument or did you just carried away trying to make a "gotcha" point?

5/18/2016 2:02:29 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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Yes, if the state wants to deprive you of a right, they must provide you with counsel. That wasn't how the ratifying conventions interpreted 6A. We didn't decide to conscript attornies until 1938 for federal trials and 1963 for state level trials. 6A, in its current SCOTUS interpretation, grants some positive rights. I have conceded that.

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 2:08 PM. Reason : das]

5/18/2016 2:06:56 PM

rjrumfel
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I'm not trying to make a gotcha point. I'm just pointing out the logistics of providing a "right" to healthcare and paying for it vs providing the right to safety, already paid for by citizens.

The right to safety seems to be much cheaper and doable than the "right" to healthcare.

No one is denied access to healthcare. If you go to a hospital and need work, you'll get worked on. The fact that you can't pay for it afterwards is inconsequential.

5/18/2016 2:06:57 PM

ssclark
Black and Proud
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I think he's gonna take the "doctors make to much money" angle to which I would reply "forgive my half a million dollars in school loan debt to attend medical school and I will gladly take less salary"

5/18/2016 2:31:25 PM

NeuseRvrRat
hello Mr. NSA!
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Should have said state legislatures, not ratifying conventions. My mistake.

5/18/2016 3:11:42 PM

TreeTwista10
Forgetful Jones
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Everytime a person dies of old age, their right to life is being infringed upon

5/18/2016 3:17:56 PM

krallum2016
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Actually you don't know that because you have never died. What you said certainly sounds nice but there is no inherent validity.

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 3:35 PM. Reason : GENERAL SEMANTICS IS MAKIN A RETURN BOYS]

5/18/2016 3:35:21 PM

wdprice3
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Quote :
"If you go to a hospital and need work, you'll get worked on. The fact that you can't pay for it afterwards is inconsequential."


This isn't true. And someone's life shouldn't be ruined because they were randomly selected to have some horrible disease that their insurance (if they have it) won't pay to treat or cure, leaving them with the bill that they can't pay, forcing them into crushing debt for the one and only fucking life they have on this earth. If you are so cold and uncaring that you don't give a flying fuck about your fellow citizen's well being and life unless they can afford anything that may happen to them (as if you could), then you are fucked in the head. I'm not saying treat them as royalty and give them every thing for free. But something as simple as access to healthcare, and yes, advanced and experimental health care, regardless of their ability to pay, is something that the world's foremost superpower should be capable of providing. When the day comes that you get some fucked up disease that your insurance won't cover treatment for (if you have insurance), all because it doesn't look good for their bottom line, and because you think that if you can't pay your own way, then fuck off, I hope you realize the stupidity of your views.

5/18/2016 4:05:34 PM

rjrumfel
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You've got to stop painting people who try to make rational sense as cold and uncaring. My mother died of lung cancer, and before she died, she spent 90k/dose on chemo, for 3 rounds, then some other chemo that she had that I don't even know how much that cost. I realize it is expensive. Luckily she had insurance and it was covered.

We all can't just pitch in and cover 250k worth of chemo for everyone that gets sick. In your mind, sure, it's a right that you shouldn't have to pay for that. In my mind, whether it is a right or not, it just isn't tenable.

5/18/2016 4:13:43 PM

synapse
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You sound like a friend of mine who claims medicare shouldn't have replaced his grandmothers hip.

5/18/2016 4:19:48 PM

rjrumfel
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I don't have a problem with medicare. You're old, you've worked, you've earned what little bit medicare provides.

And I don't have a problem with thinking that healthcare should be a right. I personally don't think so, but to each his own. My problem is paying for that right.

When you start naming off things like healthcare as a right, then where does it end? Shit I think our children ought to have a right to good daycare services. Can someone pay that for me? The bus doesn't come out where I live. I think I should have a right to transportation to Raleigh. Can someone provide me a car? I have a right to homeschool my kid, but my wife and I both need to work. Can someone subsidize my lifestyle so I can exercise the right to teach my child?

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 4:27 PM. Reason : asda]

5/18/2016 4:26:53 PM

moron
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Looks like Heritage Foundation/Trump's list of supreme court choices are just a bunch of people Bush's administration liked:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/05/18/who-are-the-11-people-on-donald-trumps-short-list-for-the-supreme-court/

I guess Trump is just trying to be Bush 3.0

5/18/2016 5:15:54 PM

TreeTwista10
Forgetful Jones
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Quote :
"someone's life shouldn't be ruined because they were randomly selected to have some horrible disease that their insurance (if they have it) won't pay to treat or cure, leaving them with the bill that they can't pay, forcing them into crushing debt for the one and only fucking life they have on this earth."


I mean...some people get horrible diseases that ruin their lives. That's how life works and stuff.

5/18/2016 5:21:48 PM

dtownral
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how does rjrumfel survive in this world? like, how is he able to have a job and run errands and pay bills and shit?

5/18/2016 5:50:38 PM

rjrumfel
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Because unlike what you want to think, people with views that aren't yours are actually fairly intelligent.

5/18/2016 6:09:41 PM

dtownral
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it's not your views bruh, it's your terrible logic

5/18/2016 6:18:50 PM

synapse
play so hard
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Quote :
"people with views that aren't yours are actually fairly intelligent."


Holy fucking dumb

5/18/2016 6:29:50 PM

wdprice3
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Quote :
"I mean...some people get horrible diseases that ruin their lives. That's how life works and stuff."


Yes. And our civil systems shouldn't add to that, when it's relatively easy not to.

Quote :
"My problem is paying for that right."


So, people deserve to die, because you don't want a functional tax system? If ya can't pay, well nice try!

There are trillions of dollars left on the table, that should be paid in taxes, but are not, due to our poor taxation system. I'm sure there's plenty to cover the health care costs of those not able to pay (I mean, society as a whole already pays for most of their costs, for when they actually do get health care).

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 6:37 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2016 6:36:50 PM

rjrumfel
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How is it faulty logic to say that we can't afford, as a nation, a single-payer healthcare system.

Look, you're not going to change my views on transgender issues. Call me dumb, call me ignorant, call me a bigot, I don't care. But, tell me why I should listen to the single-payer crowd. Convince me it is better than what I currently have, and I'll listen. Tell me how we'll pay for it without breaking the bank, and I'll listen. Show me how the claims of waiting in lists for procedures isn't overblown by the media, and I'll listen.

I'd even be ok not paying my 500/month for my premiums and putting that money into taxes if I can get comparable coverage from a single payer system.

I just haven't seen evidence yet to change my mind. I pay 500/month for my family of 3, with a $1000 deductible for each member. Show me that single-payer is better, and you'll get my support.

5/18/2016 6:47:35 PM

thegoodlife3
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why are you willing to be convinced about one thing and not the other?

5/18/2016 7:04:26 PM

beatsunc
All American
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trump going to bring up slick willie RAPE allegations tonight



[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 7:12 PM. Reason : q]

5/18/2016 7:12:12 PM

The E Man
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Quote :
"Let's take a look at some of the careers that the citizens pay for, and how much they make:

Police officers: 31739 (avg in NC)
Firefighters: Between 35000 and 44000 (avg in NC)
Soldiers: Too many differences to list, but an E6 brings in from 33000 to 34000
TSA Agents: Between 25000 and 34000

Now let's look at average pay scales for doctors:

GP: 189,000
general surgeon: 215,000
anesthesiologist: 300,000
cardiologist: 512,000
pediatrician: 175,000
"

Predator drone: 100,000
Cruise missile: 830,000
Abrams Tank: 6,210,000
F-22 Raptor : 150,000,000
B-1 Bomber : 1,010,000,000
Virginia class sub: 2,300,000,000
Nuclear weapons per year: 52,000,000,000

5/18/2016 7:20:33 PM

TreeTwista10
Forgetful Jones
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$100k for a predator drone? only $2.3B for a sub? gtfo with those terrible estimates.

5/18/2016 7:24:01 PM

bbehe
Burn it all down.
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^^ I have no idea where you got those numbers, but holy shit they're wrong.

^ His sub number was actually close.

Predators are like 4 million a pop, not 100k
Cruise missiles 1 mill, not 830k
Abrams is dead on
F-22 is dead on
Bones don't cost 1 billion, more like 200million
Virginia Class is like 2.6B, not 2.3
Nuclear weapons 52 billion a year? No way in hell, it's closer to 20

[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 7:28 PM. Reason : a]

5/18/2016 7:28:00 PM

The E Man
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I didn't get them from a good source or anything but a quick google provided them. 3 out of 7 being way off doesn't really warrant a "holy shit theyre wrong" especially considering the cost calculations must be pretty complicated when you consider indirect costs which may or may not be calculated in.



[Edited on May 18, 2016 at 7:36 PM. Reason : A government website said the military drones can cost anywhere between 100k and hundreds of million]

5/18/2016 7:34:35 PM

bbehe
Burn it all down.
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Yeah, that's cause some drones can are small as shit. The RQ-11 is basically throw to launch and still costs 180k

5/18/2016 7:46:56 PM

The E Man
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I feel like all that shit is insanely marked up because of guaranteed military contracts. I wonder if trump would make better deals so we can stop paying $Sochi for military equipment.

5/18/2016 7:50:25 PM

 Message Boards » Chit Chat » So...who is, or is considering, voting for Trump? Page 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... 40, Prev Next  
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