what are people's thoughts on this plan? We get to vote on it in a few weeks on election day. Would be a 1/2 cent tax increase.

I'm just starting to read the plan in detail now.

Can be found here: http://www.waketransit.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Recommended-Wake-County-Transit-Plan_12-07-15.pdf

10/26/2016 1:16:19 PM

looks good, tried to figure out what it will cost the rider. I hope this can happen because transportation is a huge limiting factor for a lot of ag, and bioservices jobs that are located in RTP or elsewhere. It's difficult to get entry level positions that do not require a degree because of the commute.

It did say it would the 1 hr and 20 min commute from Raleigh o Durham to 45 minutes, which would be much more practical for people who don't want to drive back and forth everyday but don't want to deal with the current bus BS and delays

10/26/2016 1:56:15 PM

Yea I'd agree. Part of what has driven the triangle's growth is a competitive job market and still (somewhat) reasonable housing prices. If you want to continue those trends I think it necessitates people moving pretty easily throughout the area. As I understand it, this plan isn't even THAT ambitious, so I'd vote for if I could.

10/26/2016 2:03:45 PM

Yeah, the plan actually doesn't seem that ambitious, even at $2.3 billion which is not chump change.

Quote :

"It did say it would the 1 hr and 20 min commute from Raleigh o Durham to 45 minutes, which would be much more practical for people who don't want to drive back and forth everyday but don't want to deal with the current bus BS and delays"

That's pretty misleading though. Because 95% of the people (I'm guessing) that would take light rail from the Durham station to the DT Raleigh station don't live and/or work right next to the station(s). So really, that 45 min travel time is more like 10-15 min to get to station, 5 min waiting for train, 45 min on train, then another 10-15 min to get to final destination by walking, bus, bicycle, Uber, etc. I'm not against light rail - just pointing out the reality of it - which unfortunately isn't great thanks to all the sprawl we have in NC. (and a slightly longer commute time spent reading a book/magazine is definitely preferable to a shorter, more stressful time spent driving that same commute).

I've only read up to page 11 of 36, but I'm not seeing any funds for additional roadway projects, which (if there aren't any) is disappointing. Wake County definitely needs a multi-prong approach, but you can't neglect road infrastructure as part of that.

10/26/2016 2:20:32 PM

yea it's certainly a small step, but it will greatly improve it for the people that rely on the buses already, then perhaps we can start building onto it.

I know there have been a few times in my life where I have to find a job near the bus route

10/26/2016 2:31:27 PM

You gotta build the transit infrastructure first and hope people start to live and work around it. That's the only way to get out of the cycle of sprawl. Any help to existing commute times is gravy.

10/26/2016 2:49:55 PM

ok so you ^ think this is not the right time for this kind of plan?

10/26/2016 3:22:29 PM

I wonder if the light rail will be bicycle friendly? That could help out a lot.

10/26/2016 3:34:23 PM

Quote :

"I've only read up to page 11 of 36, but I'm not seeing any funds for additional roadway projects, which (if there aren't any) is disappointing. Wake County definitely needs a multi-prong approach, but you can't neglect road infrastructure as part of that."

I don't disagree with the sentiment that better roads need to be a part of the equation, but wouldn't the vast majority of road building be the State's responsibility? There may be some situations where counties and cities build (and possibly even maintain) roads in NC, but they are far and away the exception to the rule.

10/26/2016 3:34:52 PM

^to some degree (maybe great degree) you must be correct.

I'm just incredibly frustrated that construction to fix the shit show that is 1.5 miles of Tryon Rd between Lake Wheeler & Wilmington Street won't even be potentially funded before 2018. It's been a problem since 2010...and prob won't be fixed till 2020. Blows my mind

[Edited on October 26, 2016 at 3:42 PM. Reason : ]

10/26/2016 3:42:17 PM

^ which part of the shit show are you talking about? the intersection in general or the massive construction they did this year further down tryon?

10/26/2016 3:43:56 PM

Quote :

"ok so you ^ think this is not the right time for this kind of plan?"

No, the opposite. I think the triangle is long overdue for a real mass transit system, beyond bus routes.

10/26/2016 4:10:05 PM

We need this pretty bad. As more and more people move to the area traffic is obviously not going to get better.

10/27/2016 8:39:09 AM

^^^exactly what I said, the 1 1/2 mile stretch of Tryon Rd that is two lanes. Which, because it is 2 lanes, causes traffic back ups from Lake Wheeler to Trailwood (traveling east) and sometimes backups from Lake Wheeler to Wilmington St (traveling west) during morning and afternoon rush hours.

10/27/2016 9:39:43 AM

^We are having the same problems out here in the country. Trying to get anywhere S/SE Wake, Garner area and Johnston county on ANY back road is a nightmare. At least when 540 comes through it will ease it up but that's not going to be finished until at least 2025.

10/27/2016 9:48:19 AM

Light rail in the triangle is a horrible waste of money. If we want to favor transit, then spend the same money on dedicated bus lanes, stop-light timing, and transponders so buses never hit red lights, which can improve the whole bus network, rather than spending all the money on a single route.

10/27/2016 10:10:01 AM

eh, relies too heavily on buses.

^no. the exact opposite. but we need a true rail system; not a fucking oneliner.


[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 10:44 AM. Reason : .]

10/27/2016 10:43:46 AM

How many of you have ever used a bus as your primary mode of transportation to get to work consistently for weeks, months, years? I only rode on the TTA once and the primary hiccup was that I had to drive to get there. How would a train fix that? Train lines can't move. Busses can be added, routes can be adjusted. It's interesting that people think that trains are the ultimate solution when busses and suggestions such as ^^ seem like the logical solution.

Quote :

"You gotta build the transit infrastructure first and hope people start to live and work around it. That's the only way to get out of the cycle of sprawl. Any help to existing commute times is gravy."

So spend tax dollars and hope the tax base grows to reimburse yourself? This is often suggested and has worked to mixed success depending on the area (BART for example) but in most of the RTP area the homes are already built. Adding a rail line isn't going to spur a ton of new housing and the housing it adds won't make back the taxes spent to secure the ROW.

(Oh yeah, that ROW is going to be dicked left and right by freight)

10/27/2016 10:51:25 AM

why the fuck would I get on a bus that gets stuck in the same traffic that I'm trying to avoid?

10/27/2016 11:01:25 AM

I guess you glossed over this point in the post where you just said "no", but the general idea is..

Quote :

"dedicated bus lanes, stop-light timing, and transponders so buses never hit red lights"

It's way cheaper to build dedicated bus lanes and transponders to let buses fly through than it is to build a train line. And you can change or add bus routes much easier. It's certainly not as sexy as a train but if people can't even get on board with this than I think, humbly, it's preposterous to ask the taxpayers to fund a boondoggle like a train.

Here's two examples of how more dedicated bus service works:





And granted, most of RTP lacks the density in the latter picture but if anything that's further evidence that an emphasis on a (shared ROW!!!) train would be the wrong first or second step.

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 11:09 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 11:13 AM. Reason : .]

10/27/2016 11:06:15 AM

Quote :

"It's interesting that people think that trains are the ultimate solution when busses and suggestions such as ^^ seem like the logical solution."

To be clear, I think BRT lanes are also a great idea. Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is that buses carry a social stigma that trains don't. Whatever is logical doesn't matter if no one wants to ride it.

10/27/2016 11:12:40 AM

because those are pipe dreams for this area. not enough room for bus lines on many roads in this area. And good luck when buses have to traverse across multi-lane highways.

and then add in the idiots that will drive in bus-only lanes, or use them as breakdown lanes, etc.

these bus plan is still only a temporary measure to a bigger issue. the solution is a separate, dedicated transportation network. any system dependent upon the surface road infrastructure will always share a set of common problems and issues. Not saying a robust and highly developed bus system isn't worthwhile, because it is. it is a vital piece. but it's not going to solve the transportation issues for this area. it won't convert drivers to riders when, despite this semi-separate bus plan, buses end up not improving their commuting experience.

10/27/2016 11:15:32 AM

^True. Getting over the "poor black" stigma is a challenge. It becomes easier, however, when buses become the logical solution.

I'm sure lots of people took the buses in college because their options were limited to walking, biking, and a bus. The RTP area needs the right balance of public transit accessibility/convenience AND necessity for it to work. Right now it's being used by people who have no other option. It needs to be used by people who have no better logical option.

And then yeah, once you have a public committed to public transportation the argument for rail becomes a lot easier to digest.

Quote :

"because those are pipe dreams for this area. not enough room for bus lines on many roads in this area. And good luck when buses have to traverse across multi-lane highways. and then add in the idiots that will drive in bus-only lanes, or use them as breakdown lanes, etc. "

It's easier and cheaper to build/modify streets than it is to build rail. Not sure why buses would have difficulty traversing across highways if they had their own lane. If there are idiots who misuse the bus-only lanes then you penalize them. This isn't the wild wild west and there's plenty of existing examples of this working. It's not sexy but if you care about REAL mass transit it's the way to start.

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 11:21 AM. Reason : .]

10/27/2016 11:16:47 AM

Need better public transit. Raleigh is Mayberry right now compared to what it will be in 20 years. The trains in Atlanta make getting around the major areas much easier.

10/27/2016 11:26:52 AM

Quote :

"It's easier and cheaper to build/modify streets than it is to build rail. Not sure why buses would have difficulty traversing across highways if they had their own lane. If there are idiots who misuse the bus-only lanes then you penalize them. This isn't the wild wild west and there's plenty of existing examples of this working. It's not sexy but if you care about REAL mass transit it's the way to start. "

traverse across highways. exits / entrances aren't always on one side of a highway.

great, a $25 fine and commuters experiences aren't improved. still won't convince people to make the switch. The way for REAL mass transit to work is to provide a system that is offers a better option than commuting by driving. Is it quicker? Is it safe? Is it convenient? A bus system is only going to be marginally faster than driving. Despite plans for special bus areas, the infrastructure is shared with commuter roads. There will be interaction between the two. Railways, with stations properly located, provides everything commuters must have to make the switch.

10/27/2016 11:37:50 AM

Buses in RTP, Morrisville, Cary, etc will only work if the I-40 on ramps are multiple lanes. Right now, almost all of those on ramps are single lane and back up over a mile at 5pm. This is what we get for the DOT going super cheap when they built I-40. Express bus lanes on I-40 won't do much good if the buses can't get on there

Hopefully they've thought of that...

10/27/2016 1:28:39 PM

Yes, the existing infrastructure sucks for busses. Here's some ideas on how to improve it from the RTA:

Quote :

"Q. What are some examples of possible bus rapid transit implementation here? Here are a few possibilities of how and where a bus rapid transit-based approach might be implemented in Wake County: * Freeway bus rapid transit stations along I-40 and 540, providing multiple express connections across the region * Reconstruction of Capital Blvd. as a transit gateway corridor to Downtown Raleigh * Transit station/corridor development examples such as Blue Ridge, New Bern/Knightdale, Six Forks/Midtown, Wilmington/Hammond/Timber, Kildaire Farm, Chatham, NC 54 west, US 70, and others * Bus lanes or transitways serving all NC State campuses directly * Transit priority measures in Downtown Raleigh and other locations to reduce intersection delays * Transitways and/for bikeways along the Atlantic and Hillsborough corridors * Express lanes or transit lanes along parts of I-40, 540, 440 Beltline, and other freeways The City of Raleigh is actively studying various corridors for potential enhanced transit, with bus rapid transit a possibility for each one."

This page (http://letsgetmoving.org/priorities/transit/brt/bus-rapid-transit-brt-frequently-asked-questions-faqs/) really has some good info on why BRT is a better solution, for now, for the triangle area and why it doesn't necessarily impede a train later. People have been talking about this for 20+ years and there's not a lot of new arguments that favor a train line as the first solution.

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 1:48 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2016 1:47:46 PM

and how does this plan not include rail service to RDU?

this will be a no vote for me.

10/27/2016 3:34:44 PM

I think you might be underestimating the challenge/COST in building rail but here's a proposed plan to linking the eventual rail system to RDU. It's definitely been considered:

http://ourtransitfuture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Boards_RDU-airport.pdf

Quote :

"As the regional transit plan is implemented, connections to the airport will be enhanced, likely first using additional bus service. In a later stage, rail could be built to link the airport’s terminals with the regional transit system using a Transfer Point, like the one shown in the Exhibit. A Transfer Point would allow regional rail transit to serve the RDU airport on an hourly or half-hour basis, while travelers inside the airport can move with a shuttle or ‘people mover’ on a faster and more frequent basis (every 2-10 minutes). At the October 2007 meeting of the Special Transit Advisory Commission (STAC), RDU’s Airport Manager reaffirmed the airport’s ongoing commitment to enhance transit service connections and to develop an airport-to-rail link as previously envisioned and included in the STAC’s final recommendations for major regional transit infrastructure investments."

But really, you're not going to get a rail line built without building out a bus system that fits this sprawling area first.

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 4:20 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2016 3:51:36 PM

10/27/2016 3:52:24 PM

For some reason I can't access the link at work, but last I read this is not a light rail, but a commuter rail utilizing existing rail corridors.

Quote :

"and how does this plan not include rail service to RDU?"

Because there is no existing rail corridor to RDU? Because it would increase the cost of this plan well above $2.3B? Because the fact that it's convenient doesn't make it practical? Take your pick.

Considering where this area currently stands with mass transit, the small size of the airport, and the tiny volume of passengers that would take rail to and form RDU, using the fact that the plan does not include rail to RDU as a justification to vote "no" shows you're lack of understanding of the situation. No planner in their right mind would suggest increasing the cost of this proposal by billions to divert commuter rail out of the main corridor to service a dinky little airport like RDU.

Also, the timing of this proposal is critical. If we vote this in now, we can take advantage of available federal funding to help supplement the cost of this project. If it doesn't pass, that federal funding is going elsewhere and there is no more funding behind it to take it's place. So, if this isn't passed, you can say goodbye to any great strides in mass transit for this area for at least another decade. There will be no vote for this on the ballot next year, or the next, or the next, etc

We're already a decade behind as it is when it comes to mass transit in this area. Vote no on this now and you might as well settle in for increasingly long commutes for years to come. Vote no on this now, and maybe, just maybe, our kids generation will have serviceable mass transit in this area. That is if in 10 years we don't have another round of voters checking the "No" box out of ignorance or to save a nickel on a cup of Starbucks. We have to make incremental changes to transit over many years and that needs to start here and now.

[Edited on October 27, 2016 at 4:09 PM. Reason : ]

10/27/2016 4:02:14 PM

I counted 42 at-grade railroad crossings along the proposed 37 miles of joint use commuter rail being proposed, with only 2 additional crossings currently being converted to elevated crossings. If the plan is for this thing to operate concurrent with freight and Amtrak, it's going to be slow as molasses. Otherwise, there are going to have to be some MAJOR changes near the fairgrounds, downtown Cary, and Durham.

I thought there was discussion about this being converted to a high speed rail corridor for linking DC to Richmond, Raleigh, Charlotte, and Atlanta also. Apparently high speed rail must mean something different in this country than every other developed country on the planet, if NCDOT is showing the high speed rail work as almost complete while leaving that many at-grade crossings in place.

http://fragis.fra.dot.gov/GISFRASafety/

10/27/2016 6:01:37 PM

Passed.

11/10/2016 9:22:45 AM

my prediction: you bitches ain't gonna be using the motherfuckin' bus enough to justify this because you don't wanna walk to the bus stop and/or wait for a bus.

11/10/2016 2:44:27 PM

^ well it ain't for those people, some of us don't have cars. One of the problems out in RTP are filling the entry level positions intended for recent college grads, or HS grads and keeping them filled. Good luck finding a reliable and varied candidate pool that are fresh out of college or HS with a car

11/10/2016 2:57:36 PM

^those mofos are getting loans and getting cars. ain't nobody using the dag on buses.

11/11/2016 2:12:40 PM

lol@raleigh tryign to be charlotte

11/12/2016 8:45:43 AM

I suppose this plan may have some benefit in 15 or 20 years when our population density increases to the point where people would prefer to take mass transit, but it's going to have to be dirt cheap for low income folks to benefit.

As for myself, since there's no airport stop on the rail, it literally serves no purpose for me. Every single person in my office has expressed the same sentiment. I realize I'm not the ideal demographic for this project, but it's tough to find a large number of people this will support.

The majority of people commuting to RTP are coming from the suburbs and areas outside of 540. Completing 540 is what really excites these folks.

11/12/2016 1:25:52 PM

Quote :

"lol@raleigh tryign to be charlotte"

What does that even mean? This transit plan doesn't have anything like the LINX. Anything light rail for the plan makes use of existing rail lines already in place.

Also if it hasn't already happened, Wake County's population is the same or greater than Mecklenburg's.

11/14/2016 11:26:21 AM

Good maybe some of the terrible drivers will start riding the bus and get the fuck off the highways. Traffic is normally only an issue because of the idiots out there who fuck it up for everyone else.

11/14/2016 11:31:08 AM

the idiots will remain. they won't magically start taking the bus just because it is a new option. imagine having to WALK to a bus stop every morning for work (esp. when it's raining/cold/etc.) when you have a perfectly good car at home. the idiots won't be doing that.

11/14/2016 12:01:38 PM

way to ruin my dream

11/14/2016 12:02:17 PM

sorry, but my dream was to not have our state pay for some bullshit scheme that we won't actually use. your dream was much prettier tho.

11/14/2016 12:08:37 PM

Well I also voted no if it helps

11/14/2016 12:25:43 PM

I voted yes, because it's a start and we have to start somewhere. But I think this system will be seen as a failure for many years as it lacks the means to significantly changer commuters' experiences. I don't know that the population and governments have the backbone to push through years of a "failed system" until meaningful systems can be implemented that result in overall system success.

[Edited on November 14, 2016 at 2:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/14/2016 2:45:37 PM