[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 1:50 PM. Reason : double post]

10/3/2018 1:48:56 PM

I'm pretty sure nearly zero wage-workers would say "I love my job so much that I'd rather work 5 days a week instead of 4"

Quote :

"I'm assuming you meant "useless" distraction"

Nope, useful for capitalists who would rather us forever argue about details rather than demand change.

10/3/2018 1:50:50 PM

Quote :

"maintaining careers, AND have more time with your family"

Goalposts are moving here...

Quote :

"the only reason you're stuck with that daycare bill in the first place is because you're being exploited by the capitalist class."

Quote :

"Dude, you wouldn't need daycare at all if you were paid at a rate commensurate to your labor. "

How do they both work careers, for however many hours a week, without daycare?

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ^ how are you demanding change? honest question.]

10/3/2018 1:52:22 PM

this guy

10/3/2018 1:54:43 PM

Quote :

"this guy"

If you can't answer my basic questions I'm not sure how you plan to further the movement with [wildly] more skeptical people.

10/3/2018 1:57:30 PM

Quote :

"How do they both work careers, for however many hours a week, without daycare?"

are you just being difficult or do you really not see a difference between 2 people choosing to put their kid in childcare but being able to afford it and 2 people needing to put their kid in childcare because they can't afford to live on 1 salary and also can't afford the childcare?

in the most recent poll i can find with a quick search, over half of working women aren't working by choice.
https://news.gallup.com/reports/195359/s.aspx?ays=n
and i would suspect that the percentage of working men who would prefer to stay home is much smaller but not negligible

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:02 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 1:58:14 PM

^^
I’ve reached plenty of people IRL and online by understanding who is actually listening and who is disingenuously trying to pick apart my arguments. I’m just not interested in being part of your devil’s advocate game, it’s a waste of time.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:05 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 2:04:11 PM

Quote :

"are you just being difficult or do you really not see a difference between 2 people choosing to put their kid in childcare but being able to afford it and 2 people needing to put their kid in childcare because they can't afford to live on 1 salary and also can't afford the childcare?"

Did rjrumple say the latter was his situation, and one of them doesn't want to work to avoid the daycare expense?

And how in the hell is he "reachable" when he says stuff like this?

Quote :

"But it also makes me angry that I pay almost 1200/month (or will be again, in about 4 months) for childcare, when other children get the same care for a pittance. "

10/3/2018 2:04:14 PM

that's what you argued with adultswim:

Quote :

"How do they both work careers, for however many hours a week, without daycare?"

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 2:05:23 PM

because that anger can be redirected

10/3/2018 2:06:50 PM

alright well i'll let you all get back to your regularly scheduled programming of trying to convince rjrumple to be a socialist in the donald trump thread.

good luck.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:08 PM. Reason : ^ wait are you recruiting socialists or white nationalists?]

10/3/2018 2:07:33 PM

thanks

10/3/2018 2:08:04 PM

enjoy the boots

10/3/2018 2:08:15 PM

I don't understand why rjrumfel is having children he can't afford.

10/3/2018 2:22:31 PM

Did he say he can't afford them?

I only saw him say that it angers him that others "get the same daycare for a pittance" while he has to pay $oklahoma.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:33 PM. Reason : sounds like a socialist in the making!]

10/3/2018 2:32:56 PM

Who is the better socialist? A self defined conservative who believes in universal healthcare, free preschool, and a year of paternity leave, and is open to learning about other types of socialist policies

Or

A self defined demsoc (I think?) who nitpicks other socialists and disrupts the process of learning?

Yeah definitely the first one

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 2:44 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 2:43:48 PM

Quote :

"A self defined conservative who believes in universal healthcare, free preschool, and a year of paternity leave, and is open to learning about other types of socialist policies"

Who is angry with the taxes he already has to pay. He hasn't thought those policies out very far.

Quote :

"A self defined demsoc"

Naw, more of a Dem.

10/3/2018 2:48:53 PM

damn i really thought you were playing devil's advocate, but it sounds like you're just butthurt that rjrumfel is a better leftist than you

10/3/2018 2:51:05 PM

whatever helps you sleep at night comrade.

10/3/2018 2:53:30 PM

what about this topic makes you upset?

10/3/2018 2:57:53 PM

Pretty sure rjrumfel is the only one upset ITT.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:04 PM. Reason : ok and maybe adultswim too because I interrupted his whole "that anger can be redirected" Emperor Palpatine bit on rjrumfel]

10/3/2018 2:59:56 PM

I understand that the services I'm talking about would require more taxes.

What concerns me is that nobody can quantify "more taxes" for me when they talk about their socialist ideas.

With our salaries combined, we're probably somewhere between the 25-30% tax bracket. How will that change by implementing the type of programs I'm talking about? Would we all be paying 65% in taxes, keeping 35% of our money to spend as we see fit while not having to spend as much for services like healthcare, daycare, etc? Would I break even in terms of my current disposable income (there isn't much there)?

And why would someone like Synapse, who is child free, want to pay that much in taxes to go to benefits he will never see. Sure, you can talk to me about societal responsibility and all that, but at the end of the day lots of people who don't have kids wouldn't want to pay for all those services they aren't using. We do that today to some extent with property tax, but I suspect it would be property tax on steroids.

10/3/2018 3:12:53 PM

before anyone spends time answering your questions, please explain why you are mad that some impoverished people get a subsidy for childcare



[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 3:18:13 PM

^^
Some versions of single payer would require higher individual taxes for middle class earners, but with the caveat that it would be more than offset by healthcare cost savings.

But in the opinion of most socialists, there is no need to increase taxes on the middle class to pay for these programs. Cutting the defense budget, ending offshore tax havens, or simply returning to pre-Reagan tax levels for the very wealthy would create more than enough funding.

You also have to consider the social effect of guaranteeing the well-being of citizens. Less crime, more stable families and interpersonal relationships, more ability to "do what you love" since you aren't tied to your job via healthcare, etc. Even if you don't have kids, you benefit from a more positive society.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 3:29:14 PM

Maybe angry was the wrong word? Is miffed a better one?

I mean they picked their kid up in cars nicer than mine. But they paid very little for daycare expenses? Sure maybe a family member gave them a car, sure maybe they won it on the Price is Right and were somehow able to afford the taxes on it. But I can't afford to upgrade my 10 year old vehicle because daycare is so expensive. So I'm sorry for only seeing the optical imbalance here. Perhaps there's more going on behind the scenes that I can't see. But the optics just aren't good for me.

Typical conservative rants. Oh and I'm sure they're all using the latest iPhones, right? Can't leave that out. And I bet they buy candy with their EBT cards. How dare them.

10/3/2018 3:34:50 PM

do you usually make a point to ask parents how much subsidy they got for childcare or was this a special occasion?

10/3/2018 3:38:18 PM

They're just using a system that you should also have access to. Don't be angry at them, be angry at the politicians who are leaving you out and the rich people who are lobbying against you.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:40 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 3:40:09 PM

Quote :

"I understand that the services I'm talking about would require more taxes. What concerns me is that nobody can quantify "more taxes" for me when they talk about their socialist ideas."

That's fair criticism I think. Don't know if this is being discussed on the demsoc thread but I'd be interested in learning more there...desired services included (basic income, single payer, FMLA expansion etc) with target tax plans if y'all could make the rules.

Quote :

"at the end of the day lots of people who don't have kids wouldn't want to pay for all those services they aren't using"

I do, primarily because of social responsibility but also because providing those services has a larger societal benefit in addition to the benefits reaped by the individual.

Quote :

"Some versions of single payer would require higher individual taxes for middle class earners"

There's a lot more than single payer being discussed here...

10/3/2018 3:44:11 PM

Easy, slash the defense budget and:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_States

Quote :

"In 1932 the top marginal tax rate was increased to 63% during the Great Depression and steadily increased, reaching 94% (on all income over $200,000, equivalent of 2,500,000 in 2012 dollars"

I'm not a details guy but I'm pretty sure we could accomplish single payer, worker reforms, and basic income from these two things alone.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 3:49:43 PM

^But is really taxing someone at 94% fair? How is it right to tell someone they can only keep 6% of their income?

You think its ok because of "evil capitalists" but I guarantee you that at least a few of those evil capitalists earned their money by fair means. Not everybody inherited their wealth.

10/3/2018 3:53:59 PM

learn what a marginal tax rate is

10/3/2018 3:57:20 PM

tbf is he defending the robber barons there...not sure he meant that in self interest.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 3:59 PM. Reason : and thus could know what it means ]

10/3/2018 3:58:36 PM

Quote :

"How is it right to tell someone they can only keep 6% of their income?"

They kept 100% most of their income up to $2.5 million, then 6%.

Quote :

"You think its ok because of "evil capitalists" but I guarantee you that at least a few of those evil capitalists earned their money by fair means. Not everybody inherited their wealth."

I don't think they're all evil. Most of them probably think they're doing a service for their workers. But in actuality, most of the super rich who "earned" their wealth, would not have been able to if not for the people working for them. Why should they be allowed to keep the vast, vast majority of the profit?

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 4:05 PM. Reason : whoops]

10/3/2018 3:58:50 PM

Sure, it isn't a 1:1 ratio, but for someone making 2.5 mil, I don't know where the cutoff between the second to last bracket and the last bracket is.

I think small reforms would be a start. One thing I hate? I despise? Golden parachutes. I don't understand why a CEO should get millions of dollars for running a company in the ground. At the very least the money set aside for that for large companies could go back to the employees in the form of cheaper health care. That's just one example of a ridiculous use of money.

But in reality, the stronger you make the tax laws, tax lawyers will get even craftier.



[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 4:04 PM. Reason : sadsafddss]

10/3/2018 4:00:35 PM

Quote :

"Sure, it isn't a 1:1 ratio, but for someone making 2.5 mil, I don't know where the cutoff between the second to last bracket and the last bracket is."

Not important. The important part is we shouldn't allow people to gobble up millions per year while so many people can't afford to live.

Quote :

"I think small reforms would be a start. One thing I hate? I despise? Golden parachutes. I don't understand why a CEO should get millions of dollars for running a company in the ground. At the very least the money set aside for that for large companies could go back to the employees in the form of cheaper health care. That's just one example of a ridiculous use of money."

Soooo more worker countrol of the means of production? That's very socialist of you.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 4:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 4:02:30 PM

If you're going to slash Tim Cooks salary, then slash the price of an iPhone while you're at it.

10/3/2018 4:07:59 PM

LOL, the weird thing about this argument, especially in the South, is you can't necessarily tell who is just a flat out idiot and who stands to quietly inherit family wealth.

I don't know what rjrumfel is on about exactly, but if he isn't related to RJ Reynolds, he's an idiot. Otherwise, he's an asshole.

10/3/2018 4:14:02 PM

What I'm on about is that people keep trying to sell me on socialist ideas but can't ballpark how it will affect taxes.

adultswim is really trying, but slashing the defense budget to the level he wants is a pipe dream - not enough people will go for it. And rich people control way too much of the government for them to ever be taxed at the level he's talking about.

Oh and bridget if I were related to the Reynolds of tobacco I would've disowned them long ago. When people die in my family, family members usually end up paying money, not inheriting it.

10/3/2018 4:22:14 PM

do you want to know how much taxes would increase for you? we can afford major changes with little or no change if you're in the 25-30% bracket

10/3/2018 4:27:27 PM

Quote :

"What I'm on about is that people keep trying to sell me on socialist ideas but can't ballpark how it will affect taxes."

Ideally, even if you are a member of the upper middle class, you will not sacrifice the quality of your lifestyle as a result of socialist policies. That's the thing, it's up to us to dictate to our representatives what we want. For me, initially, that means reverting to pre-Reagan tax levels for the very wealthy.

Quote :

"adultswim is really trying, but slashing the defense budget to the level he wants is a pipe dream - not enough people will go for it. And rich people control way too much of the government for them to ever be taxed at the level he's talking about."

You can be a pessimist if you want, but you can also still say "ideally, this is the way the world should work, and I'm glad people out there are applying the right pressure". Don't take your pessimism and turn it into capitulation to the ruling class.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 4:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 4:31:12 PM

it is telling that rjrumfel can't fathom someone supporting things even if they don't personally benefit from them

10/3/2018 4:36:28 PM

Way to this thread keep on topic.

10/3/2018 4:49:37 PM

Apparently he's the "better socialist" and is "reachable"

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 4:51 PM. Reason : ^ this is a nice deviation tbh]

10/3/2018 4:50:39 PM

Nice to see rjr punching down at the poor again. Better than punching at his wife, I guess. Although if he worked harder, she'd probably be able to be a stay-at-home-mom, and then he wouldn't be whinning about how expensive day care is.

10/3/2018 5:03:56 PM

I mean it sounds like he has a typical dual income family with kids, trying to afford childcare and eventually put his kids through college. He just makes the mistake of assuming socialism is going reduce the quality of his lifestyle when he's not exactly living it up as it is. Just need to get people like him to understand that they're the new working class.

10/3/2018 5:05:00 PM

You forgot the misguided jealousy of the poor people part, who are riding a gravy train of free child care and iPhones

10/3/2018 5:08:57 PM

It seems to me that if you wanted to be uppity and mean about shit, then you'd just turn to the military.







[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 5:25 PM. Reason : military]

10/3/2018 5:20:35 PM

^^I hope you can go back and see that the iPhone bit was satire.

My wife doesn't necessarily want to stay home with the child.

10/3/2018 5:36:30 PM

Tell her to work harder so YOU can stay at home and watch the kids then.

Or maybe you're both just lazy and like to complain about paying for services that make your life better, but you don't think the price is 'fair'

Since we're playing the blame game, there's plenty to go around.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 5:46 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2018 5:45:32 PM

...at least it was a nice distraction before ujustwait showed up.

[Edited on October 3, 2018 at 6:53 PM. Reason : i'll check in on that demsoc thread from time to time]

10/3/2018 6:43:06 PM