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 Message Boards » » Dennis Smith Jr Appreciation Thread Page 1 2 3 [4], Prev  
ncsuallday
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Quote :
"Dsj sucks. Hype train on this kid is so out of control because he gets highlight dunks"






[Edited on July 16, 2017 at 11:34 PM. Reason : .]

7/16/2017 11:33:49 PM

LudaChris
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"Once again the story is that you can't blame Dennis Smith because he is doing everything by himself but did you ever stop to wonder if that is why his teams are bad? I'm not saying, but its hard not to bring it up in a game against a pg who makes everyone around him so much better."


I mean is Westbrook bad because he puts up huge stats instead of making other players around him better? DSJ is just a clone of Westbrook, he even said that's who he models his game after. Freak athlete that plays with energy and has a swagger about him. He's never going to be a CP3 or Ball type of PG where he's just going to sit back and run an offense being a facilitator.

7/17/2017 9:00:59 AM

justinh524
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I am glad he is not going to be a nut puncher.

7/17/2017 9:21:52 AM

Doss2k
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Lonzo showed that big baller defense against Smith I see

7/17/2017 9:47:39 AM

rwoody
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Quote :
" DSJ is just a clone of Westbrook, he even said that's who he models his game after. Freak athlete that plays with energy and has a swagger about him. He's never going to be a CP3 or Ball type of PG where he's just going to sit back and run an offense being a facilitator."


But he's also like Westbrook in that he is much better driving and kicking then taking hero ball jumpers. Both are much worse shooters than they think

[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 10:24 AM. Reason : E]

7/17/2017 10:24:37 AM

LudaChris
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^Oh I agree, I think he certainly has areas to improve, he's just never going to be a pass-first type of guy. I think he can be very successful doing what he does and he has all the tools to become an all-star level player. It will be interesting to see him develop if he can actually improve his shooting and defense.

He has to get out of that AAU mentality of trying to constantly pad stats and showcase your talents. Honestly think 2-3 years in a solid college program would have done wonders for his game, but as it stands now he still needs to learn how to function in a system. Dallas is a good landing spot for him though with a good system and vets around him. We'll see if his athleticism is enough to keep him relevant when the regular season starts.

7/17/2017 10:53:29 AM

Lionheart
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Yeah I think this whole "let's blame the player for being too good" is nonsense. Yes team ball matters but that line of thinking is lazy because it is actually the true very rarely. Does anyone actually think OKC would have had a better record this year if westbrook was going for 15 pts a game and 20 assists instead of his 30+ and 10 assists?

It's about the team 99 times out of 100. That's why these teams with 3-4 superstars are crushing the other teams, not because some guys are playing hero ball. Passing more to bad players doesn't make a team better.

7/17/2017 12:13:30 PM

LudaChris
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Yeah I think part of the problem with DSJ on offense is that he's never had a go-to scorer to play with, so he's been stuck having to play hero-ball. He's made some good passes in the Summer League but when he's playing with the actual Dallas roster, he'll have more capable guys around him that he won't regret passing it to.

I'm sure here he felt like he had to go off for us to win. Would have been REALLY interesting if Cat stayed to see those 2 play together.

7/17/2017 1:42:37 PM

HCH
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Quote :
" DSJ is just a clone of Westbrook, he even said that's who he models his game after. Freak athlete that plays with energy and has a swagger about him. He's never going to be a CP3 or Ball type of PG where he's just going to sit back and run an offense being a facilitator."


Westbrook has been to an NBA finals. CP3 has only been to a conference finals, with much better teams.

7/17/2017 1:45:01 PM

thegoodlife3
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CP3 has never played in the conference finals

7/17/2017 1:47:20 PM

justinh524
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I would choose hero ball over having to pass to Maverick Rowan as well.

7/17/2017 1:56:49 PM

rwoody
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"Westbrook has been to an NBA finals. CP3 has only been to a conference finals, with much better teams."


Uh that finals team had Durant and Harden

7/17/2017 2:50:08 PM

thegoodlife3
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there's that, too

coupled with the fact that the Clippers have rarely all been healthy at the same time for the playoffs

7/17/2017 2:57:51 PM

face
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"Westbrook has been to an NBA finals. CP3 has only been to a conference finals, with much better teams."


Care to rethink that statement? Just maybe?

7/17/2017 2:59:42 PM

face
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Alright let me explain. In the NBA you must run your offense efficiently or you can't win, period.

The days of winning on the defensive end of the floor are over and they aren't coming back barring some aggressive rule changes. (Calling blatantly Illegal screens and travels would be a start and hell that technically doesn't even involve a rule change).

Does ANYONE actually believe DSJ will ever be leading an efficient top 5-10 offense? It's pretty unlikely, right? He's an on the ball guy so that limits his effectiveness if you pair him with a point forward or playmaking wing. He's small. He's not a great shooter. He's a great athlete but we've seen how breathtaking Westbrook athleticism is and he still has his obvious limitations in the halfcourt. DSJ look's like a poor man's Derrick Rose. So maybe if you surround him with a few shooters and some offensive rebounders you have a CHANCE at forging a top 10-15 offense... but right now he has Harrison Barnes, the artist formerly known as Dirk Nowitzki, and Wes Matthews corpse. That spells impending doom on offense.

He's an empty stats guy. As empty as they come. His counting numbers will look fine. 18 ppg, 5 reb, 6 ast... or whatever... but when you factor in his ts%, turnovers, and inability to lead an efficient offense... and check the advanced metrics... I think his shortcomings will be obvious to the people not just watching his sportscenter and text alert highlight dunks.

I'll put this out here. I don't ever see him as the starting PG for a team who wins a playoff series. I think Dallas will be smart enough to cut bait with him once they realize he's not a winner. I could see him carving out a Lou Williams off the bench type role. Or being a low end starter like Dennis Schroder.

The guy is a terrible defender with awful size/wingspan. He has virtually no potential on that end of the floor. He's like kyrie irving without the 3 point stroke, handles, and finishing moves lol


[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 3:12 PM. Reason : a]

[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 3:13 PM. Reason : a]

7/17/2017 3:09:27 PM

DROD900
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jesus christ, the kid is 19 fucking years old and you're talking about the Mavs being smart enough to cut bait with him already? GTFO Mane

7/17/2017 3:12:50 PM

face
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Well since relatively speaking I'm outstanding at projecting NBA potential I don't see why I'd wait much longer. I formed this opinion back in December and he certainly didn't do anything to make me change it.

Guy couldn't lead an efficient offense in college and suddenly he's going to be running the show in the NBA? LOL.

7/17/2017 3:15:29 PM

thegoodlife3
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he's going from Mark Gottfried to Rick Carlisle....

7/17/2017 3:20:06 PM

PackGuitar
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^^^^I heavily disagree. NBA is different than college. I really think he'll thrive. he's making headlines and still has so much he can improve on.

[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 3:21 PM. Reason : sheesh]

7/17/2017 3:21:34 PM

LudaChris
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He had shit to work with on offense at NC State, how are you going to be effective when you have no system, an awful coach who is checked out, and you don't have any efficient offensive players to work with? We had streaky 3pt shooters who bricked open looks(Mav and Henderson), our best big man decided he wanted to focus on his mid-range game instead of working inside(Abu), and then we had some guys completely devoid of an offensive game outside of open dunks(Anya, Kapita, and Kirk).

I mean did anyone think James Harden could transition to being an effective PG? He seemed like an empty stats guy who dominated the ball and didn't play defense. Now they add CP3 so he'll likely move back to playing less PG but still, he almost won MVP last year playing PG.

DSJ has never had a strong coach with an established system and vets around him, to think he can't adapt his game and learn is a it short-sighted. I think he relies WAY too much on athleticism right now and is a significant knee injury from being a completely ineffective player. Hopefully he'll work on the skills side and learn to run an offense.

I mean the kid missed his senior year of HS and last year he was coming off a major knee injury, adjusting to college, and playing with a team where half the players quit on the season early. To forecast his entire career off of one awful season because he didn't elevate the team is a little crazy. I mean Markelle Fultz and Ben Simmons are going to be garbage too I guess?

7/17/2017 3:28:55 PM

rwoody
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"and playing with a team where half the players quit on the season early."


Including the starting PG

7/17/2017 3:32:53 PM

face
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"He had shit to work with on offense at NC State, how are you going to be effective when you have no system, an awful coach who is checked out, and you don't have any efficient offensive players to work with? "


Yet somehow the offense was good every year EXCEPT the year we had DSJ. Wow. Hell of a coincidence!


Quote :
"
I mean did anyone think James Harden could transition to being an effective PG? "


Yes.
Quote :
"
He seemed like an empty stats guy who dominated the ball and didn't play defense. "


Uh, what? I was actually clamoring for them to trade Westbrook and keep Harden if they HAD to get rid of one of them. Check the threads. Harden was awesome in OKC. He was the one who led them to the finals when he beasted SAS that year.


Now they add CP3 so he'll likely move back to playing less PG but still, he almost won MVP last year playing PG.

DSJ has never had a strong coach with an established system and vets around him, to think he can't adapt his game and learn is a it short-sighted. [/quote] I think it's short sighted to ignore that he couldn't lead a decent offense in college but suddenly think he'll be good at it in the pros. There are a lot of guys who are very good in college and struggle mightily at the next level. The majority of the guys who led shitty offenses in college never even get a shot in the pros. He's getting a flyer because he's got the flash. I don't see the substance though. He was the FIFTH point guard drafted for a reason. All that glitters isn't gold. He's going to stack the L's the next four years. Bank on it.

I mean the kid missed his senior year of HS and last year he was coming off a major knee injury, adjusting to college, and playing with a team where half the players quit on the season early. To forecast his entire career off of one awful season becaus he didn't elevate the team is a little crazy. I mean Markelle Fultz and Ben Simmons are going to be garbage too I guess?

[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 3:42 PM. Reason : a]

7/17/2017 3:41:09 PM

rwoody
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"e seemed like an empty stats guy who dominated the ball and didn't play defense."


What? When? Who? The defense part sure, but the rest of the statement is false outside of your opinion.

7/17/2017 3:48:53 PM

MONGO
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Quote :
"Yet somehow the offense was good every year EXCEPT the year we had DSJ. "

NC State Rankings according to Kenpom

2017 - Offense 45 Defense 229
2016 - Offense 33 Defense 150
2015 - Offense 25 Defense 76
2014 - Offense 35 Defense 120
2013 - Offense 10 Defense 123
2012 - Offense 32 Defense 79

Sure it was the lowest offense of the Gott era but it wasn't substantially worse. Defense was way more of a factor, IMO.

EDIT: Also we fired our coach halfway thru the year and brought in 5 new players. You have some good points but I don't know how you can blame the 10 ranking drop on DSJ... Unless there's other rankings idk about?

[Edited on July 17, 2017 at 4:41 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2017 4:19:10 PM

rwoody
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It's less blaming it on him then saying if he was so good for the team, why did he run a worse offense than Cat?

7/17/2017 5:37:18 PM

DROD900
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First team all-summer league

7/17/2017 9:49:48 PM

yrey
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He has a bright future. He's an underrated passer, and once he mixes it with veterans I think you see him settle into a more traditional PG role.

7/17/2017 11:55:18 PM

face
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Whoops i kinda messed up the quote and /quote in my last post

7/18/2017 12:04:44 AM

LudaChris
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Quote :
"It's less blaming it on him then saying if he was so good for the team, why did he run a worse offense than Cat?"


So why did a 3rd year 5* player run a more efficient offense than a 1st year 5* player coming off missing a year with an ACL tear? Seriously? The team sucked with Barber, we just ranked better offensively, perhaps in large part because our coach was phoning it in(off the court stuff seems to hold weight at this point) and the team quit halfway through the season.

Our "10 spots" better offensive netted us the same number of losses and 1 more win, not to mention that team had more veterans than DSJ's team did. We were starting 4 true FR last season at various points, Mav was the only true FR to see any substantial minutes the year before and he wouldn't have if Henderson didn't get hurt.

Also, are we really looking at our offensive efficiency and saying it had ANYTHING to do with Gott's system? We had a generational scoring talent in TJ Warren and we replaced him with a former 5* player in Lacey that was a very talented scorer in ISO situations. Our defense has always been our problem, I never felt like the offense was our problem last year, it was all defense.

7/18/2017 9:02:24 AM

MONGO
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^Agree 100%

Criticize DSJ for his T-Rex arms/defense/3 point shot. But IMO its too early to say he can't run an NBA offense because of NC State's offense when he was at the helm (with Abu/Rowan/Anya the only returning players, 2 low post bigs clogging the lane (Anya being one of them for 1/3 of the time), and Gott on his way out). Too many variables out of his control.

EDIT: Hey turns out I'm going to flip/flop over the span of 20ish minutes.

I took the time to look at All-NBA PG's over the last 10ish years and compared the Kenpom offensive/defensive rating of their last year in college.

- Russell Westbrook - 7 offense/5 defense
- Isaiah Thomas - 13/45
- John Wall - 23/6
- Steph Curry - 131/24 (but 9/24 in 08 when they advanced to the elite 8)
- James Harden - 5/41
- Kyle Lowry - 13/11
- Dame Lillard - 56/251
- Rondo - 16/77
- Deron Williams - 3/8
- Rose - 6/2
- CP3 - 1/96

Sooo the closest split to DSJ is Dame but after that all others ran a top 25 offense and a top 100 defense. 6 of the 11 PG's (not sure if Harden ran point in college but yolo) ran a top 10 offense at some point in college.

I don't like relying on numbers too much (obviously this isn't scientific by any stretch) and I do think NC State's was wack this past year for a variety of reasons I've stated earlier... but it doesn't look good for DSJ.

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 9:38 AM. Reason : ]

7/18/2017 9:16:44 AM

LudaChris
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Quote :
"
- Russell Westbrook - 7 offense/5 defense
- Isaiah Thomas - 13/45
- John Wall - 23/6
- Steph Curry - 131/24 (but 9/24 in 08 when they advanced to the elite 8)
- James Harden - 5/41
- Kyle Lowry - 13/11
- Dame Lillard - 56/251
- Rondo - 16/77
- Deron Williams - 3/8
- Rose - 6/2
- CP3 - 1/96
"


Looking at their final years:
Westbrook: 2nd year starter, played with Kevin Love and Darren Collison, both averaging double-digits.
Thomas: 3rd year starter, on a team with 3 players averaging double-digits.
Wall: 1st year starter, on a team full of NBA players.
Curry: 4th year starter, veteran team running the same system for 4 years, weak conference.
Harden: 2nd year starter, he carried the team, still only averaged 4 assists and 3 turnovers per game.
Lowry: 2nd year starter playing with Foye averaging 20+ppg.
Lillard: 4th year starter playing in a weak division.
Rondo: 2nd year starter, played with 2 other veteran guys that made the league.
Williams: 3rd year starter, playing with 4 other guys(all JR and SR) averaging double-digits.
Rose: 1st year starter, 2 other guys drafted on his team were upperclassmen.
CP3: 2nd year starter, top 2 scorers were veterans and one made the NBA.

I just don't think you can really take any of the metrics DSJ had last year because the context just doesn't fit. None of those guys listed had situations remotely similar to the trainwreck DSJ walked into last year.

Sure he might end up being a bust, he definitely has some flaws to his game, but writing him off before he's played a meaningful game just seems a bit ridiculous.

7/18/2017 11:30:44 AM

HCH
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Anyone who watched any of the Summer League games and came away thinking DSJ is going to be a bust belongs in the Isaiah Thomas and Phil Jackson school of General Management.

7/18/2017 12:22:01 PM

TreeTwista10
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face likes to make predictions, ignoring that players can improve. He called John Wall a bust during his rookie season, for example, despite him being like 19 or 20 years old at the time.

7/18/2017 12:50:47 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"So why did a 3rd year 5* player run a more efficient offense than a 1st year 5* player coming off missing a year with an ACL tear? Seriously? "


I can't speak for you but last summer just about everyone expected this year team to be WAY better and preferred the frosh year of DSJ over senior year of Cat. I made the argument that people were putting huge expectations by expecting him to be a big step up from Cat who had just put in a great season.


Quote :
"not to mention that team had more veterans than DSJ's team did. We were starting 4 true FR last season at various points, Mav was the only true FR to see any substantial minutes the year before and he wouldn't have if Henderson didn't get hurt. "


That's whole paragraph is crazy. The MOST true frosh we started last year was TWO, for 18 games.

If you discount DSJ and Cat, since we are comparing the two as PGs, top 4 pt from cats year had a FR and 3 SO. The next guy is Beejay. First DSJ, top 4 were a Jr, a SO, a rs SO and a RS Sr. true, DSJs next 3 were frosh but that was over BJ who was still on the team! Makes assume Kap/Yurt were a step up despite being Frosh.

Also it doesn't really matter why Mav played a ton his first year, he just did. He played almost 2x the minutes that year of any frosh not named DSJ this year.

Quote :
"Also, are we really looking at our offensive efficiency and saying it had ANYTHING to do with Gott's system? We had a generational scoring talent in TJ Warren and we replaced him with a former 5* player in Lacey that was a very talented scorer in ISO situations. Our defense has always been our problem, I never felt like the offense was our problem last year, it was all defense."


Not sure why you wrote this, nobody is arguing about Gotts system are they?

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 2:28 PM. Reason : E]

7/18/2017 2:27:35 PM

LudaChris
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Quote :
"The MOST true frosh we started last year was TWO, for 18 games. "


I didn't say at the start time, I said we started them. DSJ, Johnson, Yurtseven, and Kapita all started games at various points last year.

I agree that people were putting too much on our class, but a lot of it was that Yurtseven was being praised as a 1-and-done lottery pick, and he was a complete non-factor. I think everyone also had higher expectations for Henderson and Dorn than they turned out to be. I think people saw a top 10 class and got caught up in the hype and hoped they'd all be amazing when 2 of them were projects, one of them classified up to come in early, and the other was DSJ.

Quote :
"
Not sure why you wrote this, nobody is arguing about Gotts system are they? "


Then why are we comparing the offensive efficiency for our team over the Gottfried years if we're not talking about Gott's system or our offensive system in general? Gott's shitty system was the only consistent among all of those seasons we were comparing offensive efficiency ratings.

7/18/2017 4:00:52 PM

rwoody
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Uhhhh bc the question was "does DSJ make offenses better" and someone made the argument that our offense was worse with him?

Quote :
"DSJ, Johnson, Yurtseven, and Kapita all started games at various points last year."


Either way your point is still wrong. Kapita and Kell started like 3 games. Yurt was starting in place of a player STILL ON THE TEAM. Do you really think anya would have been a step up offensively from Yurt? Can't really use DSJ to say that DSJ played with young players. Abu, Rowan, Henderson, and Dorn were all more experienced (although not in acc play in guess) then who they replaced (younger Abu, younger Rowan, Martin and Martin).

7/18/2017 10:35:47 PM

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