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tulsigabbard
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Quote :
"Incidentally, the reverse of this - "I don't have it and you do, and that's wrong" - is the essence of socialism/communism."

"Theres more than enough of it for everyone yet so many people don't have it and need it to survive" would be better
Socialists are coming from a point of empathy not self gain.
Quote :
" Socialism is when you're at or near the bottom, you don't have the skills or temperament to navigate upwards, and so you just say fuck it, let's not have a hierarchy at all.
"

Your analysis is lazy and just flat out wrong. Its actually quite the opposite. Bourgeoisie worry that they or their kids might have to compete with everyone else instead of being given an advanced start position. Most of the leading socialists throughout history were part of the bourgeoisie and even today they are mostly academic types. I know because I go to a lot of socialist events and meet a lot of socialists. Almost solely highly educated people with advanced degrees. Its hard to think about philosophy and revolution when you are working to make ends meet and distracted by the potential for wealth. Thats kind of the point of a system of control though.

Communism is a natural characteristic of our tribal nature. We are indoctrined to the system of capitalism from a young age. Once educated out of it, all people are socialist to some degree, including you.

9/26/2017 11:20:50 PM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"Bourgeoisie worry that they or their kids might have to compete with everyone else instead of being given an advanced start position."


This is actually the most interesting part of what you said. The actual socialists, for the most part, are the educated bourgeoisie element of society. Yes, I know them personally too.

Still, how do you intend to deal with the fact that biologically people want to secure as much as they can for themselves and for their progeny? Any system so fundamentally at odds with human nature is doomed to fail. That's a tired criticism of communism, but ultimately I think it's the correct one. There's no evidence to show that communism can work, period, anywhere, ever - at least that it can work better than capitalism. When your success stories are Mexican villages where people are shitting in buckets and countries where toilet paper is worth more than the currency, I think you just have to accept that you went down the wrong ideological path.

Marx had something valid to say, but his prescriptions are just toxic, and so are the prescriptions of modern day Marxists. Markets are the only reason we have a society worth continuing. Markets are neutral though; they don't say what is right and wrong. That's the domain of philosophy.

[Edited on September 26, 2017 at 11:43 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2017 11:43:45 PM

GrumpyGOP
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"Africa and latin America hardly moved, largely because capitalism has prevented the distribution of new technology that should have eradicated extreme poverty everywhere"


Quote :
"Cuba, China, and Vietnam have all maintained some success through socialism"


Africa has hardly moved for a whole long list of reasons, some of which are related to capitalism, and a lot of which are related to African leaders' pursuit of half-baked socialism.

China and Vietnam maintained a great big pile of shit until they started embracing free market principles, and Cuba has declined into shit in the absence of a Soviet Sugardaddy.

9/27/2017 12:25:53 AM

tulsigabbard
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You can't truly have a free market unless you have market socialism. Socialism gives everyone the opportunity to participiate in the market. How can a market be considered free if most people are priced out of ever participating?

9/27/2017 1:39:55 AM

TerdFerguson
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"I'm not saying they're all bad people, I'm saying they have a proven track record of not being able or willing to climb the social ladder. It's not like there's some underground society of poor and disenfranchised that are secretly competent but, for some crazy reason, they can't use their competence to meet their basic needs. If they were competent, they would be succeeding in the capitalist framework."


and some....I assume.... are good people. /TRUMP VOICE

surely you can recognize there are a long list of factors that create and maintain the cycle of poverty, many of which are not self-inflicted. The worst part though is this statement assumes that the rich are competent and good at what they do, which is true in some cases, but is also laughably untrue in many cases as well.

Quote :
"Still, how do you intend to deal with the fact that biologically people want to secure as much as they can for themselves and for their progeny? Any system so fundamentally at odds with human nature is doomed to fail."


Untrue. Human history is replete with examples of mutual aid. Some scientist think Homo Sapiens out-survived Neanderthals because we had larger, more giving social groups. Child Psychologist have documented a natural preference for sharing and mutual aid among young children. Millions of charities of all types. Giving a dollar to the local bum panhandling on the corner etc etc etc.

Empathy is hard-wired into our brains (excluding sociopaths). Its been as responsible for human success as feelings of competition.

Quote :
"When your success stories are Mexican villages where people are shitting in buckets and countries where toilet paper is worth more than the currency, I think you just have to accept that you went down the wrong ideological path."


What about worker cooperatives like Mondragon? It turns over 12bn Euro in revenues a year and employs 75K people.

9/27/2017 8:10:41 AM

GrumpyGOP
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"Human history is replete with examples of mutual aid."


It's also replete with examples like "Quite a continent you folks have here, Squanto. Can I interest you in this blanket?"

Quote :
"Once educated out of it, all people are socialist to some degree, including you."


Most of the real Socialist or Communist systems that have cropped up attempted to prove it by educating people, often to death. What kind of pointless statement is this? "Everybody is socialist once you make them be."

9/27/2017 3:28:34 PM

TerdFerguson
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^I don't disagree, I'm trying to get people to ditch this idea that capitalism is the ONLY economic system compatible with "human nature." Human nature is way more complex than "biologically people want to secure as much as they can for themselves and for their progeny? "

9/27/2017 3:55:22 PM

GrumpyGOP
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The "human nature" appeal is a tricky one. If we observe it as a spectrum of attitudes inherent in the species rather than a specific set that define it, there's some use. I believe it is fair to say that "human nature" involves a balance between rapacious greed and self interest on the one hand, and empathy on the other. Everybody falls somewhere along that scale.

Both capitalism and Socialism cater to one side of that spectrum more than the other, but I think capitalism allows for empathy much better than Socialism/Communism does self interest/greed. Where these systems have been attempted, we see two things:

1) Small cadres of enterprising, self-interested officials getting fat on corruption
2) Efforts to eradicate enterprising self-interest through means that range from "bad" to "shoot everybody who can read."

Since every system seems doomed to a certain degree of corruption I'm more concerned about the second one, given tulsigabbard's cryptic but ominous reference to "educating people out of" capitalism.

9/27/2017 5:21:15 PM

TerdFerguson
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Yes, we all fall somewhere on that spectrum. Now which part of that spectrum should we as a society seek to promote? Greed or empathy?


BTW:
Capitalist systems aren't immune from suppressing dissent, see Pinochet's death stadium.
Made even more disgusting by the implicit support of Pinochet by American capitalist academics (Chicago school).

Also, this is difficult, but there is a heavy grey area where we confuse a country's economic system with its political system. Supporting capitalism isn't what allowed Pinochet to murder, just as communism didn't magically allow Fidel Castro to murder. I don't think we should blame economic systems when it's authoritarian governments (and an ends justify the means mentality) that are at fault.

9/27/2017 5:43:13 PM

d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"surely you can recognize there are a long list of factors that create and maintain the cycle of poverty, many of which are not self-inflicted. The worst part though is this statement assumes that the rich are competent and good at what they do, which is true in some cases, but is also laughably untrue in many cases as well."


I don't think I implied that people being poor or low status is their fault. There are many possible causes of poverty, all of which can be talked about in isolation. My point is that the lower class can't lead revolutions, or at least not without a bunch of people getting killed.

If you read what I wrote again, you'll see that I'm not talking about the rich at all, I'm talking about "the bottom of the hierarchy". None of us are in that group. There are many competent people that are not rich. However, most people that are rich are competent in some way - upward and downward economic mobility in the U.S. is quite high. Most rich people didn't inherit their wealth. That isn't the crux of my argument, though.

Quote :
"Empathy is hard-wired into our brains (excluding sociopaths). Its been as responsible for human success as feelings of competition"


This statement doesn't challenge my reply at all. In fact, this supports my reply. Look at what I was replying to:

Quote :
"Bourgeoisie worry that they or their kids might have to compete with everyone else instead of being given an advanced start position."


In other words, bourgeoisie have secured advantages for their children. The communists say, hey, that's wrong, no one should have an advantage in life. My main response is: humans are hardwired to take care of their children and if your ideology runs counter to that, you fucked up somewhere. It doesn't mean that you secure resources for your children by any means necessary, that's just...I don't know, leftist projection or something.

Quote :
"What about worker cooperatives like Mondragon? It turns over 12bn Euro in revenues a year and employs 75K people."


I have no problem with this sort of arrangement. In some cases they may work. I'm against global or national communism. I'm against global or national anything really; in general I think we need radical decentralization.

Quote :
"Yes, we all fall somewhere on that spectrum. Now which part of that spectrum should we as a society seek to promote? Greed or empathy? "


Greed is mostly a leftist strawman. Society, to the extent that it "promotes" anything, should promote empathy and industriousness. Say what you will about protestant work ethic, I think it has foundational value, even in a socialist framework.

Quote :
"Capitalist systems aren't immune from suppressing dissent, see Pinochet's death stadium."


Sure, but Pinochet's kill count looks like child's play compared to...well, just about any communist dictatorship that you can name (hint: they're all dictatorships, because people only want communism until the blessings of capitalism run out, then they want blood)

[Edited on September 27, 2017 at 9:07 PM. Reason : ]

9/27/2017 9:03:25 PM

TerdFerguson
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Ah, the old costbody count - benefit ratio. Convincing.

9/28/2017 5:38:57 AM

GrumpyGOP
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Quote :
"Yes, we all fall somewhere on that spectrum. Now which part of that spectrum should we as a society seek to promote? Greed or empathy? "


Being neither a Communist nor a complete laissez-faire Capitalist, I don't think society should pick one to the exclusion of the other. There are examples of great strides in human progress that can be attributed to both and, often, to points in the middle.

Quote :
"Capitalist systems aren't immune from suppressing dissent, see Pinochet's death stadium."


Sure. But Capitalism doesn't necessitate suppression, where Communism and big-S Socialism do. The nature of a planned economy requires that a government be there to tell the people what to do, and does not allow for popular deviation from the plan.

Quote :
"I don't think we should blame economic systems when it's authoritarian governments (and an ends justify the means mentality) that are at fault."


Communism requires authoritarian government as the only means to suppress the more enterprising citizens. Capitalism has little to say about government, except that less is generally better.

9/28/2017 2:37:10 PM

tulsigabbard
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Youre forgetting that people can vote on the laws that government enforces. The government would be workingnfor the will of the people therefore it is the people telling people what to do. That is society. You cant have a society without rules.

Also no Marxist is on the end of the spectrum. We believe in a slow transition to comminism but not that it is possible now.

Market socialists like myself believe in guaranteed necessities and a free market for everythimg beyond that. Its much closer to the middle than the status qup.

9/28/2017 4:10:18 PM

Dentaldamn
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what is a guaranteed necessity?

9/28/2017 5:31:19 PM

0EPII1
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http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/capitalism-is-the-problem/

Capitalism Is the Problem

Good read, by a professor of economics.

9/29/2017 1:50:20 AM

JesusHChrist
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"Marx had something valid to say, but his prescriptions are just toxic, and so are the prescriptions of modern day Marxists"


Dude, you've been typing this stupid shit on this message board for at least 7 years, now that I'm aware of.

Have you even bothered to read the Manifesto, or Das Kapital? Seriously, for someone who critique's Marx as often as you do, it's pretty obvious that you've never read his stuff. Fuck, start with Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine" if you don't want to legitimately discuss Marx. At least then you'd have some basic background about how the Chicago School of Economics was forced onto the Chilean population in order to install Pinochet, who then ruthlessly killed and disappeared Chilean Leftists and created death squads in soccer stadiums throughout the country. And that this American form of imperialism has been forced on societies across the globe, from Tehran to Vietnam to the horn of Africa.

And the sad part is that the only thing that I can surmise being the culprit for your irrational fear of social democracy, is that you're afraid that the underclass is going to run into your home, shoot your dog, and throw you out. And this fear really seems to stem from weird racial biases. I don't have to go back too far into your post history where you claim that a working class revolt would be lead by "Jamal's" (you actually said this, once. I explicitly remember it), and you've posted pictures of Latino gang members holding guns in similar conversations. And your insistence that poor people are low skilled and therefore dangerous only re-enforces this diagnosis.

At this point, I can only surmise that your fear of mild socialism (which you always conflate with full-blown communism) stems from an insecurity that you feel from knowing that maybe, just maybe, the advantages you personally received in life are due to the structural imbalances that are inherent into the system of capitalism that have been discarding humans for the financial benefit of the ruling elite.

If you have even the tiniest understanding that the extreme inequities of society are a feature of capitalism, then you have a moral obligation to try and rectify this imbalance. Because if you can face these glaring injustices and choose to post-rationalize rather then correct the issue, it doesn't make you a philosophical dissident to reactionary Leftists. It just makes you a dick.

10/1/2017 10:11:05 PM

tulsigabbard
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Quote :
"what is a guaranteed necessity?

"

In the US, its roads, mail, military, and a 12 year education.

In my world, its an 18-year education (add 4 on the front and 2 on the back), healthcare, housing, and food.

(My government is still smaller than your government)

10/1/2017 11:50:46 PM

Dentaldamn
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Great, where is that world located?

10/2/2017 8:10:29 AM

tulsigabbard
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Singapore and Scandanavia

10/2/2017 8:33:56 AM

Cherokee
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https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xwge9a/math-suggests-inequality-can-be-fixed-with-wealth-redistribution-not-tax-cuts

Quote :
"According to a new report published today by the New England Complex Systems Institute, mathematics can indeed be used to find a solution to income inequality. And as it turns out, the math points to targeted programs that redistribute wealth to the poor as the way to close the inequality gap and improve the health of the economy as a whole."

10/17/2017 2:47:18 PM

LoneSnark
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And which real world studies do they use to demonstrate this?

Probably none. Standard computer model's fallacy: if your model is build with the assumption that inequality can be fixed by transfer payments, then of course model will show that transfer payments will fix inequality.

10/17/2017 5:49:33 PM

Cherokee
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Did you read the article and report?

10/17/2017 5:55:59 PM

Dentaldamn
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Who has been to Singapore or any where in Scandinavia?

10/17/2017 9:53:57 PM

tulsigabbard
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I've spent time in all of those places and the U.S. is a real shithole in comparison.

10/17/2017 10:18:10 PM

Dentaldamn
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Welp! You can't be a citizen in those places bc their immigration laws are tight!

10/17/2017 10:26:13 PM

tulsigabbard
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I know thats a lie because I almost moved to Singapore myself ane know how simple the path is. Tons of expats and a lot of good work there. Its a nation of immigrants. Theres some easy things to criticize about Singapore, but this aint the one.

10/17/2017 10:39:58 PM

Dentaldamn
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This subsidized housing situation you speak of is only available to citizens which takes the following steps:

Also almost the entire population is Chinese or Malay.

https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/how-does-a-foreigner-become-a-singapore-citizen-or-permanent-resident/
Quote :
"A person can become a Singapore citizen via the following ways:

Via Birth:
A person who is born in Singapore with at least one parent who is a Singapore citizen.
Via Descent:
A person born outside Singapore after 15 May 2004, with at least one parent who is a Singaporean citizen.
A person born outside Singapore before 15 May 2004 if his father was a Singapore citizen by birth or by registration at the time of birth.
Via Registration:
A Permanent Resident for at least two years who is employed or married to a Singaporean citizen can register for citizenship. A male Permanent Resident may also apply upon satisfactory completion of full-time National Service, as may children of Singaporean citizens living in Singapore.

A person can become a Permanent Resident in Singapore if he or she is:

The spouse or unmarried child (below 21 years old) of a Singapore Citizen or a Singapore Permanent Resident
An aged Parent of a Singapore Citizen
A P, Q or S work pass holder
An investor or entrepreneur"

10/18/2017 9:31:12 AM

tulsigabbard
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Yes. That proves I can become a citizen.

10/18/2017 7:17:28 PM

Cherokee
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/20/us/politics/republicans-tax-401-k.html

Quote :
"WASHINGTON — House Republicans are considering a plan to sharply reduce the amount of income American workers can save in tax-deferred retirement accounts as part of a broad effort to rewrite the tax code, according to lobbyists, tax consultants and congressional Democrats."


Quote :
"The proposals under discussion would potentially cap the annual amount workers can set aside to as low as $2,400 for 401(k) accounts, several lobbyists and consultants said on Friday. Workers may currently put up to $18,000 a year in 401(k) accounts without paying taxes upfront on that money; that figure rises to $24,000 for workers over 50. When workers retire and begin to draw income from those accounts, they pay taxes on the benefits."


Quote :
"Rumors have circulated for months that negotiators were debating including a cap as a way to help offset the revenue loss from a reduction in business tax rates that Republicans have put at the center of their plan. Reducing contribution limits would be, in effect, an accounting maneuver that would create space for tax cuts by collecting tax revenue now instead of in the future."


More stellar short term thinking from our mentally retarded representatives in Congress.

10/20/2017 9:22:15 PM

tulsigabbard
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Its actually a good idea and great long-term thinking in general. My only problem is that it puts an unfair share of the tax burden on the upper middle class. TWW will be mad about this because it happens to affect our demographic the most, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.

Oversaving might be good for your personal future but is not the best thing for the economy. That is a lot of money that can be spent or taxed right now. All of these policies are supposed to lead to higher gains in the stock market which essentially pays the upper middle class back in higher returns. We've already seen the higher returns this year.

I think you will come out even unless you make enough money to save so much money that the extra taxes above 2,000 outweigh the additional gains. In that case, I don't see why you feel entitled to tax-free income.

Of course, if it was up to me, the funding would come from the military and super rich instead of upper-middle class, but thats just my socialist opinion.

10/25/2017 7:45:05 PM

Cherokee
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https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/26/worlds-witnessing-a-new-gilded-age-as-billionaires-wealth-swells-to-6tn

I'd pull out quotes and comment on them but I have a comment for nearly every single one. The absurdity.

I'll say this though - the people on the right terrified of socialism: this is how your mentality lays the ground for it to actually happen.

[Edited on October 26, 2017 at 6:32 PM. Reason : a]

10/26/2017 6:30:06 PM

beatsunc
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^that's awesome. the more billionaires the better right.

[Edited on October 27, 2017 at 5:59 PM. Reason : w00t]

10/27/2017 5:59:16 PM

wdprice3
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TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS

10/27/2017 7:12:02 PM

adultswim
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I just can't get over this. How did it happen? How many people had to approve it?

http://time.com/5132811/martin-luther-king-dodge-ram-super-bowl-commercial/

[Edited on February 6, 2018 at 12:24 AM. Reason : also JesusHChrist's last post in this thread rules]

2/6/2018 12:20:36 AM

TerdFerguson
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https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/90F2D376-101F-11E8-9D89-F5B1A4E547B9?__twitter_impression=true

2/18/2018 3:01:03 PM

tulsigabbard
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the things on the bottom are the key gateways to consumerism. they are the things that open you up to more ads which means more consumption. the things at the top are things that actually decrease consumption so all of the money needs to be extracted at once.

they can basically give you a tv and smartphone because the advertising and life expectancy is going to generate a return really fast.

education and good health last for decades and lead to significantly less consumption

i want a society that flips that graph.

2/18/2018 3:06:01 PM

TerdFerguson
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^nice take tulsi

Other points that need to be made:

"Wages" I believe means average wages across the entire workforce. Of course average wage picks up more of the skew toward top earners as compared to median wages.

"Childcare" could be related to factors that are cultural as much as economic (family or community members might have looked after kids more frequently in the past).

"College" cost increases are due to drops in STATE level subsidy as well as the proliferation of for profit colleges.

"Healthcare"- I think several threads have been filled on cost increases.


But yeah, put them together and life seems upside down.

2/18/2018 3:29:08 PM

LoneSnark
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They happen to also be the industries with the greatest government involvement. Almost as if government involvement makes things expensive...

2/19/2018 10:43:58 PM

adultswim
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Definitely in the US, when there are multiple layers of pocket lining along the way.

2/19/2018 10:58:16 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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holy shit thanks for the graph. that is awesome.

2/19/2018 10:59:00 PM

A Tanzarian
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things that can be produced with cheap overseas labor vs. things that cannot

2/20/2018 12:32:46 AM

moron
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^^^^
Or maybe it's bc things the gov gets involved in tend to be things people view are more critical

2/20/2018 2:01:59 AM

TerdFerguson
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^^Yes, outsourcing is a crucial factor in this graph I think.

Again, college got more expensive as DIRECT STATE level subsidy fell (on a per student basis) almost across the board, since 1997. Also the proliferation of for-profit colleges.


2/20/2018 5:57:43 AM

adultswim
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3/28/2018 2:43:19 PM

0EPII1
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Is this the correct thread for this?

The Toys R Us bankruptcy is what happens when Wall Street puts profits before people

Vulture capitalists need to know that threatening America’s working-class communities will be met with consequences.


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/toys-r-us-bankruptcy-what-happens-when-wall-street-put-ncna876536

5/27/2018 9:00:52 PM

adultswim
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Suicide increased 30% from 1999 to 2016. Wonder how much it's gone up in the last two years?

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-suicides-increasing-20180607-story.html

6/8/2018 12:01:50 PM

adultswim
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The richest Americans live 10-15 years longer on average than the poorest.

https://www.vox.com/2016/4/11/11405954/health-life-expectancy-inequality-jama

6/12/2018 6:59:46 PM

TerdFerguson
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Concentrated Injections of $$$$$$$

6/12/2018 7:01:43 PM

adultswim
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/08/health/world-health-breastfeeding-ecuador-trump.html

Quote :
"A resolution to encourage breast-feeding was expected to be approved quickly and easily by the hundreds of government delegates who gathered this spring in Geneva for the United Nations-affiliated World Health Assembly.

Based on decades of research, the resolution says that mother’s milk is healthiest for children and countries should strive to limit the inaccurate or misleading marketing of breast milk substitutes.

Then the United States delegation, embracing the interests of infant formula manufacturers, upended the deliberations.

American officials sought to water down the resolution by removing language that called on governments to “protect, promote and support breast-feeding” and another passage that called on policymakers to restrict the promotion of food products that many experts say can have deleterious effects on young children.

When that failed, they turned to threats, according to diplomats and government officials who took part in the discussions. Ecuador, which had planned to introduce the measure, was the first to find itself in the cross hairs.

The Americans were blunt: If Ecuador refused to drop the resolution, Washington would unleash punishing trade measures and withdraw crucial military aid. The Ecuadorean government quickly acquiesced."

7/8/2018 2:28:15 PM

NeuseRvrRat
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crony capitalism

7/8/2018 8:52:44 PM

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