Bolton is in

3/23/2018 12:48:28 AM

Bolton has a weird relationship with Russia, recently was featured in one of their videos.

Russia is marginally aligned with Iran (anyone have the details on this?)

Bolton hates Iran, and is drooling to go to war with them

Bolton likely would support a preemptive strike on NK

Bolton would also likely not oppose the use of nuclear weapons-- at which point all hell would break loose if other countries didn't keep their cool.

I'm wondering if this is Trump's way of signaling that if he goes down, he'll take everyone with him??

Trump surely knows about Bolton's ideas, couldn't get his staff to agree to Bolton last year, but seems to be in YOLO mode the past few weeks kicking out anyone with a shred of rationality to surround himself with completely unqualified sycophants.

3/23/2018 12:51:59 AM

So whats new? The leadup to war with Iran has been long in motion. The destabilization of Syria and war in Yemen are to create a buffer against Iran. Some even argue Afghanistan and Iraq were as well. Lets not act like its a Bolton thing. We've always been at war with North Korea. No one is going to come to their defense against an American nuclear attack.

3/23/2018 12:57:12 AM

Neither obama nor Hillary would have been interested in war with Iran.

Bolton is a potentially significant development.

3/23/2018 1:01:37 AM

Then why did Obama undermine Assad and facilitate Saudi Arabia's proxy war in Yemen?

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/09/yemen-saudi-arabia-obama-riyadh/501365/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-obama-analysis/syrias-civil-war-to-mar-obama-legacy-idUSKBN14228S

I take it this was to weaken Iran's leverage against attack and ability to project force on our allies in the scenario of a war.

3/23/2018 1:05:51 AM

Why did Obama return billions of dollars to them and relax sanctions? It's absurd to suggest he was angling for war.

3/23/2018 1:26:45 AM

Quote :

"So whats new? The leadup to war with Iran has been long in motion. The destabilization of Syria and war in Yemen are to create a buffer against Iran. Some even argue Afghanistan and Iraq were as well. Lets not act like its a Bolton thing. We've always been at war with North Korea. No one is going to come to their defense against an American nuclear attack."

You tell us. You're the one who's said Trump is a genius, so surely this is just another brilliant move of his. I'm sure it has nothing to do with Guccifer 2.0, Cambridge Analytica, Stormy Daniels, John Dowd resigning, Jerrod Kushner getting his security clearance revoked, DTJr's wife filing for divorce, or trying to start a ridiculous trade war to somehow prop up the US economy.

3/23/2018 1:29:47 AM

hes only a genius at the game that is our political system. winning elections and running a country are two different things.

[Edited on March 23, 2018 at 2:45 AM. Reason : that divorce has nothing to do with anything and is sick to bring up]

3/23/2018 2:40:23 AM

Next week on The Apprentice, DC Edition...

It is obvious he's trying different names from the hat until he gets himself surrounded by yes men and women.

3/23/2018 7:23:18 AM

No, he's hiring Fox News people and firing those who've said anything critical about Russia. If it were just random people it would about 10x better than what he's actually doing.

3/23/2018 2:44:26 PM

Thread title is dumb.

Should be a Bolton thread.

3/23/2018 2:49:26 PM

There were news reports earlier yesterday that an "unknown" group was bombing bases in Syria, media couldn't get anyone to take credit

Reports out now that it was Israel doing the bombing

seems abnormal Israel would be bombing Iranian-backed bases and no one knows about it?

4/9/2018 2:54:09 AM

so maybe they are the ones doing the chemical attacks then

4/9/2018 3:22:51 AM

Netanyahu ripping a page from Trump’s book and bombing Syria to distract from his various scandals.

4/9/2018 5:50:53 AM

Well and pretty much any other President ever who faced a scandal..

4/9/2018 9:06:51 AM

Russia now condemning Israel for massacreing Palestinian protestors last week, after Israel bombs Syrian bases they are allied with

We have Russia-Iran-Syria ratcheting up with Israel now

As Trump publicly says he wants a withdrawal, but military leadership says we need to stay.

But Trump says he wants to terminate the Iran deal which is coming up for renewal in august again, just before midterms

John Bolton officially starts this week and supposedly has already gathered several meetings, we did see trump publicly name Putin in condemning Russia for gas attack too (with a tweet obviously not written by trump).

4/9/2018 12:02:25 PM

Judging from his comments right now there will absolutely be a military response overnight.

And I’m sure the dumb media will fawn over him for 24 hours like every time bombs get dropped.

4/9/2018 12:08:32 PM

Quote :

""We cannot allow atrocities like that. Cannot allow it," Trump told reporters on Monday during a Cabinet meeting as he warned that "nothing's off the table." "If it's Russia, if it's Syria, if it's Iran, if it's all of them together, we'll figure it out and we'll know the answers quite soon." Pressed on Russia's role in the suspected chemical weapons attack, Trump said Russian President Vladimir Putin -- who backs the Syrian regime -- "may" bear responsibility. "He may. And if he does, it's gonna be very tough. Very tough," Trump said of the US response. "Everybody's gonna pay a price. He will and everybody will.""

What is the hypocritical buffoon going to do? Does the world even know who dropped the chem weapons?

US of course blocked a UN investigation into the massacre of dozens of Palestinians in Gaza by murderous IDF snipers (watch video of executions in dedicated thread), people who were 200 feet from the border and posed no threat to Israel, but of course, he will take action on this scenario.

Hypocritical vile massacre-enabling perverted buffoon.

4/9/2018 4:52:40 PM

To the top

Nato/Ukraine/Taiwan vs china/russia/iran/North Korea

Lets do this

9/30/2024 8:03:36 PM

10/1/2024 3:20:40 PM

If I ever get drafted or volunteer, I'll post updates to TWW for you guys

10/1/2024 3:34:27 PM

welp....

10/1/2024 3:58:27 PM

Kamala puts her statement out
https://www.threads.net/@kamalahq/post/DAmIodCKZoO/?xmt=AUFiTWdvMFpITXBvQXExUWtnUVFTbmFURUR6b1NMWWMzaDUxWk9xVWVBeTdt

I’m just a casual armchair news reader but this was a response to Israel putting troops on the ground in Lebanon. Normally that would be called an invasion.

I don’t see how she can say with a straight face that Israel is just defending itself. I feel like this statement will hurt her, because most people can see that Netanyahu created this problem and now America is being dragged into it, and she’s not addressing that aspect of things.

10/1/2024 5:11:30 PM

Consider her opponent.

10/1/2024 5:31:02 PM

^^Can you not even pause that video? Holy shit threads sucks.

10/1/2024 5:34:32 PM

^ you have to click and hold on the timeline

10/1/2024 6:15:28 PM

Quote :

"this was a response to Israel putting troops on the ground in Lebanon. Normally that would be called an invasion."

why is Israel putting troops on the ground in Lebanon?







this isn't a war that Israel started. Hezbollah wanted a fight with Israel, and now they're getting it. a terrible, tragic shame, but it is in fact important to understand clearly that this is all happening because some Muslims can't live in peace next to Jews. Liberals like us can see how christian nationalist movements here are an alarming threat, but have a hard time seeing the same thing happening over there, except it's muslim supremacists over there.

Quote :

"I don’t see how she can say with a straight face that Israel is just defending itself."

they've been defending themselves against the same Islamic militant and political forces for 100 years.

You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war.
- Winston Churchill

Quote :

"most people can see that Netanyahu created this problem"

I am 100% happy to talk about the ways in which Netanyahu has failed the people of Israel, but this is bigger than just his sins.



[Edited on October 1, 2024 at 6:20 PM. Reason : .]

10/1/2024 6:18:39 PM

Quote :

"I don’t see how she can say with a straight face that Israel is just defending itself."

Then maybe you need to get your eyes checked. Hezbollah has been lobbing rockets into Israel for almost a year now. They've been targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. And they been doingit because Israel went into Gaza to hunt down and destroy an organization which kidnapped hundreds of people, after murdering almost 1200 civilians, raping women and children and burning people alive. What part of that do you think isn't self fucking defense?

I'm no Israeli apologist by any means, but fuck, get some perspective.

10/1/2024 7:22:16 PM

Quote :

" Liberals like us can see how christian nationalist movements here are an alarming threat, but have a hard time seeing the same thing happening over there, except it's muslim supremacists over there. "

I don’t think this is an apt analogy. I don’t and wouldn’t advocate for bombing a state filled with Christians as a response or invade another nation, and then use this as a pretext to bomb a 3rd nation.

I get Netanyahu wants to make a safer place for Israelis where they don’t need the iron dome, but he’s just made the problem a lot worse. He’s turned skirmishes with a much weaker enemy into possibly an all out war with far more powerful enemies.

Netanyahus speech at the UN implied he’s seeking regime change in Iran. I don’t see how bombing a new regime is going to help— is some peace loving Iranian going to take over after that? Or does some religious extremist take over and make things worse? The latter is far more likely.

Obama secured the Iran nuclear deal, there should have been an effort to rebuild something similar. If this were in place over the past 10 years we could have been at a point where Iranian internal politics shifted more liberal. But instead I’m supposed to accept the alternative of innocent Palestinians, Lebanese, Israelis, and Iranians dying for an unclear goal, that doesn’t seem right.

10/1/2024 9:31:06 PM

Quote :

"I don’t think this is an apt analogy."

it is though. it's not the only factor going on in all of this, but the idea of "this is muslim land and should always and forever be muslim land" is an essential thread running through the entire conflict going all the way back to before the ottoman empire even collapsed.

10/2/2024 10:54:18 AM

I'm not sure if the IDF and their spokespeople are the best source of unbiased info about the situation

10/2/2024 11:15:45 AM

yeah well I listen to white house press conferences when there are important matters related to US security too. take the IDF messaging with a grain of salt, fine, but if at the end of the day the words they say are true, then that's what matters.

Quote :

"I don’t and wouldn’t advocate for bombing a state filled with Christians as a response or invade another nation, and then use this as a pretext to bomb a 3rd nation."

Instead of the Ottoman Empire collapsing, say the United States did. And South Carolina became its own nation, run by Christian Nationalists. North Carolina almost succumbs to the same forces, but Democrats hold onto power and life goes on and we continue on a path of increasing prosperity and security. But South Carolina spirals into madness and its leaders increasingly convince (propagandize) the population that they are on a Holy Mission to reclaim not just SC in the name of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but to also claim NC and other surrounding territories as part of the new caliphate Kingdom of Christ. They will never accept a 2-Carolina solution. And so they start a campaign to attack and eliminate the godless liberals in Wake County, using their 3%er and Oath Keeper proxies in Lee, Harnett and Johnston County to weaken NC until the day they can exterminate it once and for all.

As unfortunate and tragic as such a hypothetical (and aren't we all glad that it's only a hypothetical) I'd expect Roy Cooper to use military force against those militia groups and SC leadership.

[Edited on October 2, 2024 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/2/2024 11:35:39 AM

That seems to be missing a few more than salient details of the Israeli situation, but ok...

10/2/2024 11:48:05 AM

yeah I didn't say it maps 1-1. it's an analogy that draws attention to particular forces that are at work in the middle east that Israel has to contend with

[Edited on October 2, 2024 at 11:51 AM. Reason : i think we can at least all agree the less religious fanaticism a society has within it, the better]

10/2/2024 11:50:04 AM

I wouldn't dare say that Islamic fundamentalist is in no way a driving force here, but to ignore Israeli aggression and outright ethnic cleansing in the West Bank makes that a hard sell. I'd say that Israelis are far more guilty of that "birthright" explanation than anyone else in the region at this point

10/2/2024 12:15:02 PM

Quote :

"Israeli aggression"

as a response to what? decades of the equivalent of islamic 3%ers.

Quote :

"Israelis are far more guilty of that "birthright" explanation"

late 1800s/early 1900s zionism was far more secular in nature and was understandably much more about Jewish attempts to finally establish a place for themselves where they don't have to worry about a majority population in which they live every now and then deciding to spark off a few pogroms. I do not have a problem with the cultural attachment to Jerusalem and the Holy Land in general and those factors being a big part of why they did decide to try to establish that envisioned state where Israel now is. It also helped that Jews did in fact have a continuous presence in the region for hundreds/thousands of years. It was not unreasonable for them to buy land from absentee Arab landowners, develop the land, and when the Ottoman empire did fall apart, to suggest that they should be able to join the burgeoning world of nations, just like the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Lebanese all wanted and got, even if the land was only the size of a handkerchief. I think the Jews, Christians and Muslims are all factually incorrect about their religious beliefs including the role of the holy lands (it's just a random sliver of dirt just like the rest of the planet y'all) but if they do insist on being wrong, what do I care as long as they can be wrong and still not murder each other or disrupt the progress the rest of civilization is trying to build.

[Edited on October 2, 2024 at 1:00 PM. Reason : i really just need to go ahead and make this video. or y'all get on site4]

10/2/2024 12:31:58 PM

Quote :

"as a response to what? decades of the equivalent of islamic 3%ers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
You really are glossing over quite a lot here. Yes, there has been a historic Jewish presence in the area, but it was 6 fucking percent before the state of Israel was created. Now that's, what, over 90%? Jews "bought land" sure, but they had title to maybe 10% of the land at the time, and wound up with 60-70% after founding Israel. They systematically expelled everyone else, for fuck's sake. And it's still going on. I think people in the region have a right to be a little peeved at outright ethnic cleansing

10/2/2024 1:03:15 PM

as far as "Israeli occupation of the West Bank" goes, we can talk about related UN resolutions, but the reality is it is disputed territory. And if the PLO/PA had ACTUALLY ACCEPTED a permanent peace plan and complied with a cessation of hostilities at any point between 1967 and today, we wouldn't have to still be talking about this. But they didn't, because they don't actually accept the right of Israel to exist. that's on them. not to mention that the West Bank was occupied by Jordan for 2 decades. It should have been properly annexed into (Trans)Jordan back then if the majority Arab population there couldn't stand the thought of being part of a multi-ethnic Israeli democratic state.

and as far as the Nakba goes, once again, it was the Arab populations who started the war. It's not like that was the first time in human history (or that decade even) that hundreds of thousands of people of a particular ethnic identity were forced to leave their homes and resettle somewhere else because of war. A terrible shame of course, but don't start none won't be none.

Quote :

"it was 6 fucking percent before the state of Israel was created"

what does it matter? Human history is the story of migration. tens of millions of people migrated to other countries in the first few decades of the 20th century, for a variety of reasons. What was the percentage of Turks living in the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem during the Ottoman Empire? Didn't change the fact that they were the established rulers of the area. Jews wanted to make a better life for themselves in the holy lands, so they did it. good for them. there were like 700k people living in those lands in 1900. there's 15M people in the area today. there was more than enough room for a half million or so refugee jews (and a roughly equivalent number of Arab and other migrants) to migrate to the region in the first half of the 20th century. the arabs and muslims just didn't like it, just like many americans hate to see immigration today, and at every era of american history. it's human nature, but it doesn't make it right. and it wasn't right the way the arabs and muslims treated the refugee jews who came to live in the holy land then.

and just like our immigration debates today, either sane voices will prevail, or people who want to lean into grievances and hatred will. and there were sane voices back then. but the muslim leaders of the time succeeded in convincing the public that the Jews should not be allowed to have their own self-determination alongside the Arab Muslim populations.

Quote :

"The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through: we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home."

- Emir Faisal I, Paris Peace Conference, 1919

Quote :

"and wound up with 60-70% after founding Israel."

The Mandate for Palestine covered about 45k sq mi. 35k of that was more or less immediately separated into an independent Transjordan.

Of the remaining 10k sq mi, maybe about 2-3k of that was significantly populated, mostly in the northern coastal plains (predeominantly jewish villages) and the west bank hill country (predominantly arab villages).

The 1947 UN partition plan generally followed those settlement patterns. You can say that Israel got 55% (not 70% as you claim) of that land, but most of it was the Negev. It's like when people show election maps of US with counties in red/blue, trying to trick people into thinking America is 90% conservative or something.

Quote :

"They systematically expelled everyone else, for fuck's sake."

The leaders of the Arab nations in many cases directly TOLD the arab populations in Israel to leave, scared them into leaving with lies, and that when they were done eliminating Israel, the people would be able to come back. Didn't work out that way for the Arabs. Miscalculation on their part I suppose. You can say Israel saw this coming and took advantage and we can debate the ethics of that, but again, not the first time that large ethnic populations have been (permanently) displaced due to war. don't start none, won't be none!

If we want to talk about systematic expulsions, let us also talk about the change in Jewish populations over the last century in the Arab and Muslim nations.

Also, 20% of Israeli citizens are non-jewish. I don't see too many muslim nations with 20% jewish populations who live in relative peace and harmony with the rest of the population.

Quote :

"And it's still going on."

And all the Palestinians have to do is stop calling for the elimination of the single Jewish state, sign a peace deal, get some internationally recognized borders, and pay more attention to building up their own society from now on.

Quote :

"I think people in the region have a right to be a little peeved at outright ethnic cleansing"

I think the Jewish people also have a right to be a little peeved at outright calls for THEM to be ethnically cleansed, too.


[Edited on October 2, 2024 at 2:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/2/2024 2:02:23 PM

index forward, middle upward, ring and pinky curled down. thumb off to the side

10/2/2024 2:13:59 PM

There's a lot going on in qntmfred's post, and it's hard to know where to begin. There's the facile comparison between Jewish immigration to Palestine and immigration to the United States, in particular creating a false equivalence between the response to those immigrants. There's not a Guatemalan Irgun equivalent blowing up civilians in California so they can re-establish the Viceroyalty of New Spain, and if the United Nations told us we had no choice but to let California become New Spain, we would quite understandably react with military action.

There's also the talk about how Palestine just needs to accept "a permanent peace plan" with "some international borders," when in reality what Palestine would have to do is accept Israeli proposals that would strip them of further territory and leave them without real sovereignty in their own territory. It's the "If you stop fighting back we won't have to fight anymore" argument that Putin fans use for Ukraine.

I think I was most angry at "A terrible shame of course, but don't start none won't be none." As though the entire Arab population, man, woman, and child, started the war. As though there wasn't an international consensus and laws of war saying you shouldn't just kick civilian populations out of areas or seize the property of refugees.

But really all the dwelling on historical narratives obscures the current reality we actually have to deal with:

Israel exists. It is a Jewish state. There is no way to change either of those facts without resorting to genocide and/or ethnic cleansing.

Palestinians exist in Gaza and the West Bank. There is no way to change that fact without resorting to genocide and/or ethnic cleansing. Even if neighboring Arab states - who I acknowledge have a long historical record of being shitty on Palestine - even if they welcomed Palestinians with open arms, making them move would be an act of ethnic cleansing.

Perhaps this is a normative statement rather than a fact, but I'm going to go ahead and say "Genocide and ethnic cleansing are bad."

From those premises - you can't get rid of Israel or Palestinians without genocide and genocide is bad - the only solution involves the creation of a Palestinian state, which Netanyahu's government and a substantial portion of Israelis reject.

Which brings us to the nuts and bolts of our current reality, which are the government or pseudo-government actors causing this crisis. These entities are far more important than quotes from long-dead Emirs, and most of them are shitty.

The present Israeli government has a few motivations, none of which are really laudable. Clearly it isn't about getting hostages back. There's a revenge element, which I can understand if not condone. There's pretty clearly a drive to expel Palestinians from all or much of Gaza. In order to get political cover to "finish the job," they want Donald Trump to win. Netanyahu has all but said as much. I am increasingly suspicious that recent Israeli escalation is timed and in part designed to create a crisis to hurt Harris' chances, and if open conflict with Iran begins before the election I will be sure of it.

There's also an element of Netanyahu's personal need to retain power, which has no doubt driven some of these decisions.

Iran gave the green light to 10/7 in order to disrupt Israel's integration into the Saudi-led bloc of its opponents. The goal is understandable for a geopolitical perspective, though obviously the means are inexcusable. Subsequent Iranian actions suggest that, having accomplished their goal, they are averse to further escalation. That's why the first Iranian missile attack was carefully choreographed to fail.

Hamas wanted to make the price of maintaining the status quo unacceptably high to Israel, and to galvanize Palestinian opposition to Israel via Israeli overreaction. Mission accomplished, which is why they're willing to go with a ceasefire.

Hezbollah's motivations are a little hazier to me and I assume they're mostly acting at Iranian direction.

10/10/2024 8:41:42 AM

Quote :

" I am increasingly suspicious that recent Israeli escalation is timed and in part designed to create a crisis to hurt Harris' chances, and if open conflict with Iran begins before the election I will be sure of it. There's also an element of Netanyahu's personal need to retain power, which has no doubt driven some of these decisions. Iran gave the green light to 10/7 in order to disrupt Israel's integration into the Saudi-led bloc of its opponents. The goal is understandable for a geopolitical perspective, though obviously the means are inexcusable. Subsequent Iranian actions suggest that, having accomplished their goal, they are averse to further escalation. That's why the first Iranian missile attack was carefully choreographed to fail."

100% agree with all of that.

10/10/2024 11:25:07 AM

And the conclusion to be drawn from all that is: Israel is really the only actor with the means to stop the current conflict. They're not doing it, because their government is only interested in preserving its power and furthering its expansionist aims.

I'm not sure that's something we as the United States can stop; if we cut them off tomorrow, they'd just court Russia or China. But we sure as shit don't have to support it, especially when they're so transparently meddling in our domestic politics.

10/10/2024 2:14:34 PM

Quote :

"Nato/Ukraine/Taiwan vs china/russia/iran/North Korea"

This seems pretty fair right? Could add Cuba and Venezuela to the bad guy side, and still pretty fair I think. We get Philippines, Australia, South Korea and Japan too. I like our chances honestly

10/11/2024 11:36:51 PM