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 Message Boards » » Moderate vs Centrist Page 1 [2], Prev  
d357r0y3r
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Quote :
"They don't want more "capitalism." They want more "capital." There's a difference. They're poor. They'd like to not be poor. That requires a more even distribution of resources."


I don't think it does require a more even distribution of resources. In classic socialist fashion, you're framing the world as a zero-sum game. We have a fixed set of resources that just have to be split up fairly.

That mindset just doesn't map onto reality. The onus is on you to explain why "late stage capitalism" has resulted in massive reductions in global poverty. If there were any strong evidence that moving away from a market-based system resulted in reductions of poverty, we'd be seeing it everywhere, but there just fucking isn't. All the evidence points to "let the market work as much as it possibly can". This is a pattern easily recognizable in developed and developing nations alike.

Quote :
"Yes, it is. Their material reality informs their desire to not be hungry and sick. You are making a conscious decision to disregard their material needs and are trying to reverse engineer a moral structure that supports this conscious decision in service of free markets."


There's no evidence that anything other than market-based economies will help the hungry and sick. There are zero examples of centrally planned economies working beyond small communes. I don't have to reverse engineer anything - you come to the conversation with absolutely zero evidence or insight.

4/11/2018 3:20:57 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"If there were any strong evidence that moving away from a market-based system resulted in reductions of poverty, we'd be seeing it everywhere, but there just fucking isn't"


Lol..riiiiiiight.....The American empire has fought entire regions of the world to enforce and maintain current market forces and to reduce the bargaining power of over seas labor for decades....

Every single attempt to move away from "market-based systems" has been met with the full force of imperialism. But somehow in your mind, this is just "bruh, socialism just doesn't work, bruh. We have to have bosses because that's what the market's want, even if that's not what the people want."


God, you would be so much cooler if you were an anarchist instead of a libertarian.

4/11/2018 3:42:54 PM

dtownral
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pro-corporation market economies and centrally planned economies are not the only options

4/11/2018 3:56:15 PM

adultswim
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https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/23/opinion/international-world/centrists-democracy.html

Quote :
"On the right, ethno-nationalists and libertarians are accused of supporting fascist politics; on the left, campus radicals and the so-called antifa movement are accused of betraying liberal principles. Across the board, the assumption is that radical views go hand in hand with support for authoritarianism, while moderation suggests a more committed approach to the democratic process.

Is it true?

Maybe not. My research suggests that across Europe and North America, centrists are the least supportive of democracy, the least committed to its institutions and the most supportive of authoritarianism.
"

5/23/2018 10:48:51 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Well I mean they have nothing in terms of an argument, or a coherent worldview, or a useful praxis, but what they do have is they are speaking on behalf of a hegemonic liberalism that is going to get us all fucking killed. I mean yeah I agree don't talk to them, but because they're a distraction from the real fucking problem which is that fascism arises because of the collapse of institutional legitimacy of liberal institutions.

And that's how we got fucking Trump, it's how we're gonna get what's comin' next after him that's gonna be even worse. Because if you think there's not gonna be more ecological and economic catastrophes in the future that liberalism is wholly unsuited to fucking deal with and that that failure is not going to lead to fascism filling that fucking hole, you've got another thing coming.

And that's what these guys are, these guys who marched in Charlottesville: these are the people who are aware of the unspoken premise of this sort of zombie neoliberalism that we're living in, which is that we're coming to a point where there's gonna be ecological catastrophe and it's going to either require mass redistribution of the ill-gotten gains of the first world... or genocide.

And these are the first people who have basically said: "Well if that's the choice, I choose genocide." And they're gettin' everybody else ready, intellectually and emotionally, for why that's gonna be okay when it happens. Why they're not really people. When we're putting all this money into more fucking walls and drones and bombs and guns to keep 'em away, so that we can watch them die with clear consciences, it's gonna be because we've been loaded with the ideology that these guys are now starting to express publicly.

On the other side of them you have people who are saying, in full fucking voice: "No. We have the resources to save everybody. To give everybody a fucking decent and worthwhile existence. And that is what we want." And that is the fucking real difference between these two. You can tell that to the next asshole who tells you that they're actually two sides of the same coin."


Time to pick a side, centrists.

10/8/2018 3:14:57 PM

theDuke866
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Nope, I'm just withdrawing even further. Both parties are so wretchedly abhorrent at the moment.

10/8/2018 9:41:31 PM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Both parties are so wretchedly abhorrent at the moment."


Lol did you even read the quoted?

10/9/2018 12:30:47 AM

TreeTwista10
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epic rant, Matt!

[Edited on October 9, 2018 at 2:31 AM. Reason : horseshoe theory]

10/9/2018 2:30:33 AM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"On the other side of them you have people who are saying, in full fucking voice: "No. We have the resources to save everybody. To give everybody a fucking decent and worthwhile existence. And that is what we want.""


I don't believe the Democratic party is representing that viewpoint at all. I truly wish they were, and a lot of them talk like they are, but they aren't. I've always voted for them because at least they aren't taking us closer to an Orwellian dystopia like the rich white Christian conservative stronghold is. But you don't need to look any farther back than the 2016 primaries to see what they're actually willing to fight for.

10/9/2018 2:51:31 AM

BridgetSPK
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Quote :
"theDuke866: Nope, I'm just withdrawing even further. Both parties are so wretchedly abhorrent at the moment."


That's exactly what Republicans want you to do.

10/9/2018 4:01:42 AM

rwoody
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Hasn't the Duke said basically he wouldn't ever vote for a Democrat unless they supported all republican policies? Why is he implying he's a moderate/centrist?

10/9/2018 7:40:44 AM

dtownral
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when he describes his political beliefs he is inline with pro-business centrist democrats but he would never vote for them because they're socialist sissies

10/9/2018 7:52:13 AM

adultswim
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theDuke is just incredibly, steadfastly ignorant. fox news melted his brain 10 years and he's in constant denial.

Quote :
"I don't believe the Democratic party is representing that viewpoint at all."


the quote is about left vs right. democrats are mostly right-wing.

10/9/2018 1:29:54 PM

bdmazur
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Interesting house race in the ridiculously gerrymandered NC-9. The middle vs the far right.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-10-07/midterm-elections-north-carolina-democrat-runs-in-the-center

10/9/2018 9:14:26 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"Hasn't the Duke said basically he wouldn't ever vote for a Democrat unless they supported all republican policies? Why is he implying he's a moderate/centrist?"


No, I've said I won't vote for a Democrat who favors hard-left redistributionist policy.

...and at any rate, why would I refuse to vote for a Democrat unless they support the policies of...the other party I refuse to vote for? That's nonsensical on its face.

Quote :
"when he describes his political beliefs he is inline with pro-business centrist democrats but he would never vote for them because they're socialist sissies"


"inline with" is a stretch; I'm more of a Jon Huntsman-type Republican (though not registered GOP and have not been for 2.5 years, and was only nominally a Republican for years before that), but at the moment, the centrist, business-wing Democrats are the closest thing I've got. In fact, Bill Nelson is probably the only reason I'll even bother to vote this November (there's gonna be a lot left blank on my ballot, in races where I can't write in "none of the above.") Even then, it's probably splitting hairs in terms of whether I'm more ideologically aligned (or less opposed) with him or Rick Scott, but I'm not voting for any Republican anywhere on the ballot unless they are actively hostile to Trump/Trumpism.

Quote :
"theDuke is just incredibly, steadfastly ignorant. fox news melted his brain 10 years and he's in constant denial.
"


1. Go fuck yourself.
2. I bet I haven't watched a total of 15 minutes worth of Fox news in the last 15 years.
3. You don't have a clue. That was one of the most incredibly, steadfastly ignorant things I've seen you post in at least a week or so.


[Edited on October 11, 2018 at 3:03 AM. Reason : I have exceedingly normal political views, and that is basically wholly unrepresented in gov't now]

10/11/2018 3:00:50 AM

dtownral
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your views are not normal

10/11/2018 1:34:40 PM

eleusis
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Quote :
"though not registered GOP and have not been for 2.5 years"


do most people register with the party they associate with? I thought it was normal to register with whatever party gerrymandered your district so that you could vote in the primaries.

10/11/2018 2:02:54 PM

dtownral
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NC is one of many states with open primaries

[Edited on October 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM. Reason : NC open for unaffiliated at least]

10/11/2018 2:08:32 PM

rwoody
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^^^^Yea you did say you might vote for Bill Nelson.

I guess I just don't know what to say you're for, only what you're against. I got the impression that you're for classical republican policies, just not Trump. But outside of immigration and maybe trade, Trump's policies aren't really that extreme for the republican party. Maybe I mislabeled you, however.

Oh and Clinton wasnt by any means advocating leftist redistribution policies. Her and Obama are super capitalist/fairly centrist

[Edited on October 11, 2018 at 2:15 PM. Reason : E]

[Edited on October 11, 2018 at 2:17 PM. Reason : What about amendment 4, felon voting rights? ]

10/11/2018 2:15:18 PM

adultswim
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^^^^^
You believe in systemic oppression, but you don't believe in any measures to fix this, other than putting less minorities in jail.

You don't believe in "progressive redistribution" but you also don't care that wealth has been continuously redistributed from the workers to the already rich.

You want to fix healthcare costs, but definitely not through the system that works in almost every other first world country. In fact you're so against this that you won't even vote for a candidate that supports it!

Your beliefs are self-contradictory, and whenever you're confronted with this fact, you have no response. That's ignorance.

[Edited on October 11, 2018 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

10/11/2018 2:15:47 PM

Pupils DiL8t
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I think that most Republicans view any type of tax on the wealthy like what was used to help fund the Affordable Care Act as leftist redistribution policy.

10/11/2018 2:22:50 PM

eleusis
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Quote :
"NC is one of many states with open primaries"


Duke is in Florida IIRC, a closed primary state. NC is only a semi-open primary state, so a registered Republican wouldn't be able to vote in the Democratic primary if they happen to reside in a gerrymandered district where only Democrats stand a chance of winning.

10/11/2018 11:54:07 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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Quote :
"I thought it was normal to register with whatever party gerrymandered your district"

Quote :
"a registered Republican wouldn't be able to vote in the Democratic primary if they happen to reside in a gerrymandered district where only Democrats stand a chance of winning"


Important to note that sometimes one party creates lines that guarantees a win for the other party, if in turn it gives them 2 guaranteed districts. Say these 9 areas were to be split into 3 districts:

D D D
D R R
R D R

56% Dem, 44% R
If the columns were made into individual districts, there would be 2-D and 1-R, which is as close to the actual population as you can get and each district would have at least some minority voice. But if the rows were made into districts, you'd have one solidly D with zero chance of any R influence, but 2-R districts, completely misrepresenting the majority of the entire area.

So if you live in that top row, you may have been gerrymandered into a forever-blue district, but you were put there by republicans.

[Edited on October 12, 2018 at 2:23 PM. Reason : -]

10/12/2018 2:23:06 PM

rwoody
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No offense man but I think eveyone here understands how gerrymandering works

10/12/2018 2:59:30 PM

moron
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egGUqv8LTkw

I actually watched the full video of Kanye’s rant and most of his ideas are preexisting Democratic ideas

He wants reparations, to end stop and frisk, he wants prisons to focus on rehabilitation, he wants gov funded arts programs in schools, he wants tax subsidies to build factories in black areas

His most conservative ideas are protectionist trade policies, but he makes some conflicting statements there.

If anything I’d say this demonstrates a lack of marketing by Democrats to get their message out there.

I’d also say it’s a failure of the news media that focuses on Kanye’s ranting unhinged style rather that showing how at odds Kanye’s ideologies are to trump's

10/12/2018 4:32:58 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
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^^Sounded like Eleusis thinks if you're in a gerrymandered district it's because the party that controls it put you there, so I was just explaining why that's not true.

10/13/2018 7:19:24 PM

rwoody
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You were worried he thought Political parties forced you to live in certain districts?

Quote :
" register with whatever party gerrymandered your district "

10/14/2018 12:07:27 AM

Dentaldamn
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people do this???

[Edited on October 14, 2018 at 9:21 AM. Reason : Wtf]

10/14/2018 9:21:05 AM

theDuke866
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In addition to Sen Bill Nelson, I may also vote for Jennifer Zimmerman (D). I can't find specifics on her positions on many issues, but the general feel I get is that she's a moderate. Her opponent, Matt Gaetz, is one of the most bottom-feeding dipshits on Capitol Hill. Additionally, if by some miracle she manages to get elected, she'll be gone in 2 years in bright-red FL-1 if she strays far to the left at all.

Mostly I'll just be voting for ballot initiatives. If I vote for any Republicans at all, it'll be for Commissioner of Agriculture or State Chief Financial Officer or something. I hope the earth opens up and swallows the Florida Governor's Mansion shortly after the election, no matter which way it goes.

Quote :
" If you call yourself a moderate, you're either not paying close enough attention, you're a sociopath, or you're flat-out brainwashed."


hahahahaha, Jesus.

Quote :
"I've noticed that you've moved considerably to the left on most issues, including economic ones. What pulled you?"


I've noticed and wondered the same thing, having known NyM410 for...20 years now?

10/15/2018 1:44:01 AM

rwoody
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I don't know if this should go here or Dem credibility but:
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/10/tribalism-exhausted-majority-centrism-david-brooks-democratic-party.html

Democrat is the centrist party

10/18/2018 3:01:23 PM

rwoody
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Opposing Medicare for All is not centrist, it's far right

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/412552-majority-of-republicans-say-the-support-medicare-for-all-poll

10/26/2018 10:18:47 AM

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